The most recent post from aleon515 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,126102.0.html) made me think more about my own situation.

I've obviously thought about the whole gender issue a lot in my life. I've been the way I am since I was born, but my thoughts about how people perceive me are what has changed the most over time. I've always seen myself as male, that's never wavered, but I acknowledge that I'm stuck in a certain body and certainly having to play the part of a female throughout my life has changed my perspective on a great number of things. I'm certainly not a "regular guy" because the average born-as-male guy has no idea what it's like to be a female in society, but I do.

If I could wave a wand and get rid of the physical female parts of me, I would do it without hesitation. My hesitation enters when the word surgery comes into play. I have a very strong aversion to surgery. I also don't react very well to things like anesthesia and there's a list of other things that personally keep me from moving in that direction. I have tried T and had some bad medical reactions to that as well. If I could take it and just get SOME of the permanent effects I would be happy with that, but I just felt like utter crap. Actually I've taken other forms of hormones over the years and also felt like utter crap so I kind of think that whatever "normal" is for my body, it's unique to me and if I mess with it, well then I feel like crap. The plain and simple fact is that my body is different. It doesn't react the same way to medications or damn near anything else that the majority of people seem to do just fine with. It pisses me off, but it's the reality I have to live with.

On the topic of being misgendered by people ... That's bothering me more and more and I really thought by now that I would be able to overcome that and just brush it off. I'm actually getting very close to the point of telling more people in my life (that I can trust) that I'm transsexual (it's the closest thing to a definition that other people could understand easily that I could come up with, without having to tell my life story and all my interesting little "quirks" in the process) simply so they'll stop including me as "one of the girls" and start treating me differently. That bothers me even more than just someone I don't know addressing me as "miss" or "ma'am" ... people who do know me, especially women, who try to "include" me in some sort of "sisterhood" or something. It not only makes me seriously uncomfortable it just makes me want to scream, "I'm not an f*$%ing woman!" to them. It actually makes me angry, and that's not good. It's not good to walk around angry at people who are your friends for doing something they think is normal and they have no idea is even making you angry.

I still have no desire to "transition" though. Hell, if I had a time machine and was given the option when I was younger, yeah I would go for it, but I really don't care about transition at this point. But I realize, I do kind of want the best of both worlds. While I can brush off people who don't know me addressing me as female, it's getting more and more difficult to play the charade with people I know (my parents are exempt, because they'll never "get it"). I'd love to not have "moobs" because wearing a binder in public has become a requirement for me. I'm not comfortable enough at all with my body to not wear one. I've tried it recently and I just feel "exposed" in some manner. I walk around all slumping, just like I did when the damn things first started happening. But binders are uncomfortable and I hate that too. I hate that the only other option would be the surgery that I'm also opposed to. I wish there was some way to have some middle ground or be okay with myself enough not to care. I'd like to look more androgynous MALE rather than androgynous female, but I'm kind of under some limitations on how I can do that. Basically I just want to be ME but I also want people to treat me a certain way. I don't however, want to "come out" to the world at large because I'm just not there yet (and I definitely wouldn't want business people I work with  knowing) and also that isn't as important to me as people who are close to me.

About a year and a half ago I started exercising more because I knew that was one was to not just get healthier but to also change my physique a little without the aid of hormones. It was a way to boost my own self confidence a little. But I screwed up my shoulder back in April and that's put a damper on that. One of my friends who used to be a (female) body builder is going to give me a new plan that will "baby" the shoulder and help it to get better while working on other parts of my body so that might help in that area. So I'm still trying to do something with that. I also got more into "fashion" this year and adding different clothes to my wardrobe. I'm trying anything that will just build my confidence level and make me overall happier with myself but I'm open to other ideas too.

I know that most everyone who is transitioning is doing so just to be themselves as well, they're just taking different steps than I am. So I guess this is one of those, what if you were in MY shoes, what would YOU do type of questions.

I sort of was in that position for a while as the waiting lists here are crazy and family stuff prevented me from taking the steps to obtain T...

For about two years, I tried to simply live as female and just ignore how people perceived me. Knowing I was really a guy, and that it didn't matter what the outside was as long as I was "me" in every other way (clothes, etc). That eventually didn't work anymore, so I took the step of telling people I was trans even though I knew there were barriers. Did that for another 2 years or so. It helped, sometimes. It helped when people knew my proper name and pronouns. They didn't always get it right, but there were times where I did feel that in spite of my body, I was seen as the male of the group. Problem was, that only happened when I was in exclusively women-only groups, and even then, some days my body issues were a bit too much. But it did help me manage until I could get on hormones.

I don't really know if this is good advice or not, because in the end, I couldn't live without hormones and surgery. It helped me get through for a while though, so it might be part of a series of helpful coping mechanisms.

Some of these concerns seem to exist in Susan's population (and probably trans in general). It helps to know other's share your concerns--even if it only helps a little bit. I notice that there are people coming in as androgynes and not leaving that way. Or starting as non-op/non-hrt and not ending that way. It's enough to make me think that such positions are stations (purgatories?) where you go before you can really make decisions. After all it takes time to make decisions-- esp. ones so important. Myself-- I don't know that I consider myself a "male", I tend to go to informal words like guy or dude. BUT at the trans center I am treated like a male and I really like it. The other day at the store I was addressed as ma'am and a guy walks in and is addressed as "man" and all these relaxed terms. I really envied this.

About surgery-- I share your feelings. If there was a magic wand involved, I'd do it. I only had a bad experience with dental surgery, but I seem to have a lot of fear of it. I had a tonsillectomy a long time ago-- no bad effects and it was a good thing, but it was one that was a bit emotionally traumatic at the time. You actually have hormones in you all the time. The hormones you took were like corticosteroids or prednisone or perhaps birth control pills (estrogen and progesterone) or something?? I don't know what you would have taken legally otherwise. I will tell you extra female hormones make me nuts. I don't much like them. And corticosteroids have a lot of nasty effects. I think T would be different. Just think it would seem more natural to a ftm. Not saying there are no negative effects.

I know what you mean "being included as one of the girls". Dislike this intensely. OTOH  maybe dont' get this as much as you as I don't hang around in groups almost ever. I go around feeling pretty angry most of the time from all the misgendering. I don't see this situation going away by just getting used to it. Shouldn't I be "used to it"? It's one thing where I look at the androgyne forum and go huh? (I am not being critical-- just seeing how I am different.)

As far as that goes, I am probably older than you. Probably oldest guy on the forum (though not necessarily on Susan's). It seems really strange to be considering it at this point in my life-- except to think well if I don't do it now-- well better late than never I suppose. I do NOT think that my one living close relative is going to take to this very nicely-- being a fundamentalist. She might surprise me, but I so doubt it. I have been so dead on as to how people will react. It's funny coming from someone with autism. BTW, I am not wearing a binder. I don't think I pass in any way. I might as well be comfortable. I hide them pretty well.

Just started an exercise program. My gender therapist gave me the name of a forum for transguys exercise-- just think it is premature. I am so weak. Yikes.

I feel myself going more and more towards physical transition. But I think I would always see myself as genderqueer-- just would like to see genderqueer from the other body.


--Jay Jay

edderkopp - I definitely think a lot of people go through "stages" and that those stages can last quite awhile. Since some things about me have been constant my whole life (for instance, the fact I feel and view myself as male has never changed and my wacky reactions to hormones has not changed) it makes me feel sure of those certain things, but still confused as to how to reach a happy place for me.

aleon515 - As far as I've been able to research it, I was given some form of estrogen or estrogen pre-cursor before I really hit puberty. This was a long time ago so it was very hard to come up with details or medical records ... my theory was the doctor that my mom had, who was the same doctor who delivered me as a baby, had some sort of concern about how my body would mature. Some of my internal female parts are atrophied, even now. So I've just come up with my own theories over time. That was the first "hormone therapy" I had in life and it made me want to die. About 10 years ago I was put on progesterone because a doctor felt my hormone panel wasn't "normal" and that also made me feel horrible. And then about 4 or so years ago I tried T from a medical doctor (circumvented the therapist process) whom I knew and that too made me feel awful. So I'm reluctant to try that again, even though I would not have to go through a therapist to get it again (still know the same doctor). At this point in time, I'm far more concerned with my long-term health. But as I get older, I know that my hormones will change as well. I get my hormone levels checked once a year usually. So there may come a time where supplemental hormones may be a benefit to me, but I would still be concerned if I suffered any ill effects from it (that would make me stop).

It seems I kind of want the best of both worlds ... I want to be treated male, but I don't want to put my body through anything to change it to male-as-accepted-by-the-majority-of-society. I also am not interested in changing major aspects of my life at this point, which is why transition doesn't appeal to me. I'm okay with being androgynous ... as long as people saw me as more male and not a just a female that sort of looked male. I would be totally okay with someone thinking I was just a more feminine looking male. I know it seems like I'm not putting my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and just "manning" up and going through transition if what I really want is to be seen as male, but it's really not that easy if what I DON'T want or what I physically can't do is the majority of what transition encompasses. I have been through different therapists in the past but none of that really helped me either. I'm uncertain whether a specific gender therapist would have any effect. I would think that most of them are trained to deal with people who want to transition. Or people who have some sort of identity issue going on. I really don't though. I know who and what I am it's my interaction with people where the issues come up.

Perhaps you were on a hormone to either stop your puberty or continue it. They prescribe puberty blockers to some young trans teens. But there are other reasons to prescribe them. These can have some side-effects that cause kids to stop taking them. They aren't really the same as T. I don't know that I have heard of a case of someone stopping T because the side effects were so bad. (I believe there are people who have stopped or reversed their transitions.) OTOH, you might be a case of this. There is no reason why there wouldn't be a case where there are side effects (or even effects) that people don't like. Perhaps it is not what you should do.

I wrote this on another forum but I don't know if you would have read it. Basically your description of gender therapy is totally not my experience. He has not diagnosed me, told me to transition or not to, expected that I would transition, etc. I think the idea is to help you figure out what you want to do. He hasn't written me a letter, but I am not ready anyway. If I feel I want the letter I think he'd know as I would tell him. I think the guy I see is wonderful and there are a lot of different experiences of gender therapy. But my understanding is that you are the one who determines whether you are trans and what you want to do about it.

I think there is some amt. of pressure to transition in the trans community. I don't mean this in a mean way-- no one is sticking a gun to my head. It's just that when lots of people are happy transitioning then you think you should. It might not be right for you. Esp if you are not binary-- it's esp difficult I think.


--Jay Jay

Oh I agree there does seem to be an amount of pressure to transition in the trans community – yet at the same time people usually say, "take your time". But still, the end result is always transition.

Well there are people in the androgyne section that have not transitioned. I think there are some people who would identify enough ftm. I'm not trying to get rid of you (obviously I wouldn't anyway as I read that section), but you might feel less "pressure". I understand the "pressure" thing, I think at this point, I have my own feelings that are pushing me towards transitioning.

I have reasons to be cautious due to my age. I am very healthy but still...

--Jay Jay

I'll try it, thanks.

Quote from: aleon515 on September 03, 2012, 04:24:22 PM
Well there are people in the androgyne section that have not transitioned. I

What would they transition into?

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2012, 01:58:23 AM
What would they transition into?

Precisely

Well some have transitioned from more female to more androgynous (ftA) and vice versa (mtA) and some *are* taking hrt. Just giving this person here another alternative-- might not have known re: the androgyne section at all. (James and Pica, be nice. )

--Jay Jay

A simple basic truth to be found confirmed > 99% ... ?

We are treated as what and who we are "presenting" to others.

If you confuse them - you'll get confused sort of treatment in return, i.e. folks don't/can't relate to you.
Who knows how to relate to 'confusion' (between genders)? Very, very few...

If you send out mixed messages you will get mixed messages back... as I said.

If that doesn't matter to you... there's no problem then...
If it DOES matter... do NOT send out mixed messages! See result above.

If you FEEL male but somehow send out female vibes... THAT is a mixed message.

I have an idea that this is what might happen here.
It is HARD to leave aside years of conditioning - and some of what is anchored in our very own nature/personality.

Just my thoughts,
Axélle

Quote from: aleon515 on September 02, 2012, 10:38:47 PM
I don't know that I have heard of a case of someone stopping T because the side effects were so bad.

I just stopped T due to aggression issues. I'm a bio male and was taking it for increased energy levels due to my MS. I didn't get the typical effects from it in fact my libido went to 0 due to heavy drinking.
About the only good thing was i could finally exercise without getting sore.

Axélle - yeah, I get that. My big problem is that, I don't mind if I confuse people to a certain extent, but I'd rather be androgynous male than androgynous female. If I can't take hormones and am not interested in transition, how do I accomplish that? It also makes me highly uncomfortable to be included in the female "group" among people who know me. I guess the only way to get around that would be to "come out" to those people, but I'm hesitant to do that at the moment.

aleon515 - It seems rare just because I never usually get to hear about people stopping T because of side effects but it can happen.

If you like youtube, there are some people who are worth following.
Uppercase chase (he's on T, he's off T, he's gosh knows where). Very bright funny guy.
http://www.youtube.com/user/uppercaseCHASE1

Meiko (started off low T, now on a regular dose-- look at early ones).
http://www.youtube.com/user/MeikoEliasXavier

Yanin (very low T but for 2 years)
http://www.youtube.com/user/YaninBananin

Ok, I'm gonna stop here as I could go crazy on this. I think they all did stop at one time or other though. There are short term effects and long term. You have to be okay with the long term ones that stay on even if you quit. I think I am non-binary-- but might rather do it in a male body. I just am hating being called female in some way or other-- hate this with a passion.
I have not minded the few times I was called "sir" at all-- but it is VERY rare.



--Jay Jay

I get really really weird with any hormonal changes at all.  I'm naturally low-estrogen; I have polycystic ovaries and I'm built like a guy (except for the genitals and chest, of course).  I mean, I'm six feet tall with broad shoulders and masculine hands, and I have absolutely no hips.  All of these things are awesome, and when I'm thinner I can pass without any problems at all.  (I'm dieting now, actually.  Some medication made me gain a bunch of weight, but I digress.)

I too want to be sort of male-androgynous.  I have no desire for a beard or big muscles or anything, I just want male body parts.  Just wanted to post in solidarity, I guess, and in sympathy.

Quote from: SwitchKnitter on September 07, 2012, 09:28:54 AM
I get really really weird with any hormonal changes at all.  I'm naturally low-estrogen; I have polycystic ovaries and I'm built like a guy (except for the genitals and chest, of course).  I mean, I'm six feet tall with broad shoulders and masculine hands, and I have absolutely no hips.  All of these things are awesome, and when I'm thinner I can pass without any problems at all.  (I'm dieting now, actually.  Some medication made me gain a bunch of weight, but I digress.)

I too want to be sort of male-androgynous.  I have no desire for a beard or big muscles or anything, I just want male body parts.  Just wanted to post in solidarity, I guess, and in sympathy.

Thanks for posting. I do wish I had a little more height to work with as I think that definitely helps. So you're lucky on that front!

aleon515 - I was wondering what your age it? I was kinda getting the idea that i was older than most - although probably not the oldest - or at least I hope not.  I also hate it, as " on of the girls" as I have absolutely nothing in common with most women.

insideonthoutside - I totally understand your hesitation to have any form of surgery. As a nurse I can tell you - surgery is a big deal and even ordinary surgeries can have unexpected things happen, plus there is the after care. In many hospitals the surgery goes fine but back on the floor there can be issues. This type of thing is definitely something that should not be taken lightly, the benefits must clearly outweigh the possible costs. And pls don't ever feel pushed into transitioning. It might be right for some, but that does not mean it is right for you.

As for the hormones, it sounds like it was a while ago that you had them. Just because you had a funky experience years ago does not mean you would have one now. If you are even considering them you need to find a really go MD who really focuses on hormones. This is far more art than science and in the right hands you may be pleasantly surprised. But most MDs honestly do not know hormones very well. Seriously.

it sounds like you have more trouble with how you are perceived than how you feel within your own skin. I am with you on that one. Unfortunately, we live in a world that is very binary and everone just wants to make a snap judgement based on  what we wear. It stinks.  I wish I had better advice for you, but I'm sort of in the same boat.

Quote from: henrytwob on September 07, 2012, 09:02:05 PM
insideonthoutside - I totally understand your hesitation to have any form of surgery. As a nurse I can tell you - surgery is a big deal and even ordinary surgeries can have unexpected things happen, plus there is the after care. In many hospitals the surgery goes fine but back on the floor there can be issues. This type of thing is definitely something that should not be taken lightly, the benefits must clearly outweigh the possible costs. And pls don't ever feel pushed into transitioning. It might be right for some, but that does not mean it is right for you.

As for the hormones, it sounds like it was a while ago that you had them. Just because you had a funky experience years ago does not mean you would have one now. If you are even considering them you need to find a really go MD who really focuses on hormones. This is far more art than science and in the right hands you may be pleasantly surprised. But most MDs honestly do not know hormones very well. Seriously.

it sounds like you have more trouble with how you are perceived than how you feel within your own skin. I am with you on that one. Unfortunately, we live in a world that is very binary and everyone just wants to make a snap judgement based on  what we wear. It stinks.  I wish I had better advice for you, but I'm sort of in the same boat.

Thanks! Surgery is hardcore. I think a lot of people just don't realize all the crazy things that could go wrong ... up to and including death. Unless I need it to keep living, I'm on the avoid-surgery-at-all-costs plan! I would take hormones but after all the experiences I am really reluctant to even go there again. I do have the option it's just expensive and I really don't know what would happen if the last time was so awful. I wish I could have stayed on them long enough to get some changes, like the voice drop and a tiny bit more facial hair. I'm more comfortable with my body then I have been in the past but it's more of a comfort caused by a shift in perspective. Like I said, if I could somehow magically be 100% male I'd do it without any hesitation at all. But currently, perception seems to have floated to the top of major issues for me. So I'm going to try to work on looking more male naturally for now and see if I have any luck with that.

I wonder if temporarily going on a low dose of T cream or gel would give you the voice drop and facial hair without making you feel like crap. Like just enough T to get you out of female range, but not all the way into the male range. Not trying to push hormones on you if you really don't want 'em, that was just the first thing I thought when reading your post.