And if there are not, is the struggle for gender identity just the struggle for expressing these universal traits in gender specific ways?

what do you specifically mean by "traits"?

I think so. Of course, no woman possesses all the traits attributed to womanhood, no man possesses all the traits attributed to manhood, no androgyne is completely lacking in gendered traits entirely, every man has traits of womanhood, every woman has traits of manhood. It's more a matter of mostly. And somebody who outwardly expresses masculine traits almost exclusively might say that she feels strongly that she is a woman and has no trouble whatever reconciling that with her 'mannish' behavior and appearance.

I think we trans folks would not feel the way we do if gender was not inborn. At least some of gender is not really a cultural construct.

I think the struggle for gender identity is a struggle for identity. To be recognized as the person you are. It's deeper than behavioral or physical traits. Most people find their gender to be a core element of identity. They believe that they would be men or women even if they were without physical form, and they believe they are still men and women even while behaving in cross-gendered ways.

When you encounter other people and try to get them to recognize you as yourself and accept you as that self, your shrink calls it 'identity-negotiation.' Having a gender-identity that matches your physical sex is having a blue chip at the identity-negotiation table. It makes it easy for you to get most people to recognise you as who you are. Being trans is being impovershed in this way.

The finest and most desirable human traits are non-gender specific. They are better known as 'virtues'.
You will find an extensive list of virtues here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtues#Virtues_and_values
Many virtues are thought of as feminine, others masculine - yet it is possible for one to possess all or most of these character traits regardless of one's sex or gender. Hmmm... perhaps I should have said "despite one's sex or gender".

-Emerald 

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 16, 2007, 05:28:01 PM
And if there are not, is the struggle for gender identity just the struggle for expressing these universal traits in gender specific ways?

Subject question answer, No. This was tried in Louann Brizendine's book, "The Female Brain", and was roundly criticized by many behavioral specialists who challenged her evidence as unsubstantiated or old. Several cited numerous studies which have shown there are no gender/sex specific behaviors. This is partly because those are culture/society specific and are quite diverse throughout the world. It's also the same question I asked people who say there are, by asking, "Name me one sex or  gender specific behavior that is 100% exclusive of the other sex or gender." I've yet to hear an answer, and I'm game to learn just one.

And to the second question, yes. We all want to be accepted, personally, socially and publically, so it's a matter of trying to balance where you're comfortable with yourself and in your expression for acceptance. But it's also why many transwomen adopt more socially acceptable feminine behavoirs and presentations for a variety of reasons. My argument is that the t-community shouldn't be pushing in that direction, but more in the way of acceptance of individual expression than some universal "rules of behavior or presentation."

Just my thoughts and $.02, and worth about as much most days.

--Susan--

I never thought there were any traits, but some people seem to think there are...but it did leave me wondering what was left for the TG community to struggle for if that idea of innate masculine/feminine behaviour was taken away...

I suppose, if freedom of expression, especially the freedom to express a deep felt identity is the main struggle, the focus that often seems to be placed on the physicality of that expression makes sense.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 06:33:27 AM
I never thought there were any traits, but some people seem to think there are...but it did leave me wondering what was left for the TG community to struggle for if that idea of innate masculine/feminine behaviour was taken away...

I suppose, if freedom of expression, especially the freedom to express a deep felt identity is the main struggle, the focus that often seems to be placed on the physicality of that expression makes sense.

I think your second point is correct, it's the freedom to be who you are and express that without fear of harrassment, abuse, discrimination, or worse, violence. That's the real struggle, than criticizing others about their degree of femininity as acceptable by the community. That struggle only alienates members to walk away and stay away.

I personally would like to see the label disappear, which I think is the longer term struggle. Why should a woman who becomes President of the Police Commission (SF) have to be known as "transgender woman"? Why not just "woman" and get on with business? Even being publically out as a woman with a transexual history isn't reason to have to carry it for their rest of one's life.

Our society seems to like keep the label (as other societies also do) for the media hype. It's the reality of being a transperson these days.

Quote from: SusanK on May 17, 2007, 08:14:05 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 06:33:27 AM
I never thought there were any traits, but some people seem to think there are...but it did leave me wondering what was left for the TG community to struggle for if that idea of innate masculine/feminine behaviour was taken away...

I suppose, if freedom of expression, especially the freedom to express a deep felt identity is the main struggle, the focus that often seems to be placed on the physicality of that expression makes sense.

I think your second point is correct, it's the freedom to be who you are and express that without fear of harrassment, abuse, discrimination, or worse, violence. That's the real struggle, than criticizing others about their degree of femininity as acceptable by the community. That struggle only alienates members to walk away and stay away.

I personally would like to see the label disappear, which I think is the longer term struggle. Why should a woman who becomes President of the Police Commission (SF) have to be known as "transgender woman"? Why not just "woman" and get on with business? Even being publically out as a woman with a transexual history isn't reason to have to carry it for their rest of one's life.

Our society seems to like keep the label (as other societies also do) for the media hype. It's the reality of being a transperson these days.

Actually part of it is to break the media hype and sensationalism over being transsexual.  Those who choose to be more visable and identify with being transgender or transsexual do it to break societal misconceptions over what it means to be transgender.  That is why just woman is often consciously not chosen by those who fall into the realm of transgender activist on one level or another.  While it may be the choice of somebody who goes deep stealth to do such a thing and be identified in such a way, the point in being open about your identity and identifying as trans (be it transman or transwoman), is to shatter myths, take the discussion beyond just the medical stuff, sensationalism, and ignorance regarding transsexuality.  Basically it is done so that those just to live as women, are less likely to face problems and to help society become more tolerant of gender variance, to the point where society will get beyond the trans point and understand that we are just women (or men), and that the trans thing really should not matter.  The mindset of the transactivist is very differant than those desiring deep stealth.  It is to be public about your past for the purpose progressing society.  Making society understand that a transgender person is not a drag queen/king (I am only stating this because it is a COMMON misperception), prostitute, mentally ill, or anything else negative.  A transgender person can be a professional, an activist, a professor, a lawyer, a doctor or a public figure.  It is to prove to society that the misconceptions of us, are just that misconceptions.   Until society has changed for the better, those of us who are professionals and who feel we need to progress society, feel that it is necessary to be open about who we are and who we once were, to bring greater understanding. 

I have the exact opposite mindset of somebody who desires to go deep stealth.  But I have been a professional activist my entire short career, and involved with progressive and queer activism since I was 18, before I ever really got to deal with my gender identity issues fully.  I feel it is my obligation to be an activist regarding these issues, so society one day does progress to the point where I no longer have to self identify as trans to make a point. 

Gender traits, surley if each gender does not have individual traits then being trans is abov the phisical and not the brain. Does the likes of the hormones in our bodies not make us thinj differently, that being the case how did you decide u were in t first place if not 4 gender speciffic traits.  Sorry hope im on topic.

Quote from: Lucy on May 17, 2007, 09:29:52 AM
Gender traits, surley if each gender does not have individual traits then being trans is abov the phisical and not the brain. Does the likes of the hormones in our bodies not make us thinj differently, that being the case how did you decide u were in t first place if not 4 gender speciffic traits.  Sorry hope im on topic.

Hi Lucy,
I'm wondering the same thing. It seems more people voted no than yes. If there are no specific gender traits, why do we feel the way we do?

My answer is yes. I do believe there are some traits specific to gender, they are few but revelant.

sure, that's what the whole left brain/right brain studies are about.

Maybe instead of traits, it's more thought patterns or methods of thought that are gender specific, rather than the contents of those thoughts.

Such as the way a man processes being shy is different in terms of inner method to the females...

It cant b about the body, i need to express myself. People dont always understand me because i look male. Because i am female my mind thinks differently. It cant b a nature / nurture thing cus i was borght up as a boy but i still identify as female. So Y? It cant b clothing cus i dont cross dress, it must be feminine traits. I must b a woman stuck in a mans body. On the other side of this argument. How can there not b

I voted yes...

There is exactly 1 "male trait": the feeling of being male

There is exactly 1 "female trait": the feeling of being female

All males feel male all females feel female beyond that you just have human traits with varying distributions.

I looked at the question like this, a male trait is chivalry and a female trait is modesty. Am I on the right track here or am in left field doing the blonde thinggy.

Quote from: ssindysmith on May 17, 2007, 01:42:00 PM
I looked at the question like this, a male trait is chivalry and a female trait is modesty. Am I on the right track here or am in left field doing the blonde thinggy.

perfectly correct, i had trouble explaining myself so i just went with what i had. I suppose if someone does go blond leftfield thingy then we can talk about something else. Everything is interesting (except sport).

Cool not as blonde as I thought I was I said yes, there many traits that separate the sexes, Chivalry, is one of my favorite male traits, my BF has this trait in abundance he has many others too.

So you actually have a knight? (though shining armor is quite expensive nowadays).

OMG yes he is such a sweetie, my knight and hes got some shiny metal in a few places

Aaaagh, Hip Replacement...say no more.