Is there no way to change your gender marker if you don't have surgery? It just seems so very unfair to force a gender upon someone because of their biological sex. I know that I will likely be non-op. I feel that all the surgery would do for me is give me--and I don't meant to offend here, but this is just how I feel--a pretend vagina. It wouldn't be real. I wouldn't be me. It would actually make me more depressed I think.

What happens if I just start filling out applications and paperwork and putting that I am female? Is that illegal? Is it wrong? I don't think it is. They asked my gender, so I told them. If they asked my sex, I would tell them too.

  That will depend on where you live.  I am in Minnesota and am able to change my Dvr Lic gender marker without surgery.  SSN is fed and have different rules. 

Ya, I live in MN too ... changed my gender marker on my driver's license when I changed my name -- only after being on hormones for like three months.

Changing it on your birth certificate is different with each state.  I was born in Kansas so I have to have surgery ... but if I had been born in MN I could have changed my birth certificate already.

It all depends on state law.  I am pre-op.  I transitioned in Oregon, and was able to change the gender marker on my drivers license with a therapists letter.  When I moved to California, I had to use a DMV form, but it still doesn't require surgery.  I think the new federal rules allow you to get a passport with the right gender marker.  California will let you change the gender marker on your birth certificate.  Unfortunately, mine is from another state. 

In my special case, when I start HRT I get a temporary ID card with another name and gender, but to fully change it I need one year of supervised therapy, and they will take care of the process on their own.

It varies from state to state. Most require surgery for changing or ammending the birth certificate, if they will do it all. The requirements for other documents vary. Drivers licenses seem to only require some sort of long term medical or irreversable treatment such as HRT or surgeries.

Lying on any state and federal documents can mean "Go directly to jail, Do not pass Go, Do not colect $200". A law that is often used as leverage to get people to fold and rat someone out.  Job apps can potentially lead to dismissal. The truth can come out when your SS number is verified. Provided your SS records have not been changed. Banking relies on government issued IDs and SSN.

I don't find my inability to change the gender marker to be a huge deal. I don't like it, but it doesn't really affect my daily life. After I got my name changed to a female name and changed EVERYTHING else that had my name on it, that solved 99% of the problems I had. I also got my picture put on my credits cards so I very rarely have to show anyone my legal ID. Plus my legal ID has a picture of what I look like now so if they are looking for name to match the picture, they still see female. I did have one cashier at a bank say about six months ago "You have a typo on your ID, it says male".. lol

So let me get this right, you think SRS is creating a pretend vagina? and you think being a girl with a penis is more  realistic, socially acceptable, worthy of gender marker change to female? I'm pretty happy with my pretend vagina and the fact that all my documents are female because I do not have a penis. Females do not have penis's, what you need is a third gender marker.

I don't want to insult the intersexed since they are the third gender, looks like you'll have to come up with something else.

Quote from: Gretchen on September 09, 2012, 06:22:39 PM
So let me get this right, you think SRS is creating a pretend vagina? and you think being a girl with a penis is more  realistic, socially acceptable, worthy of gender marker change to female? I'm pretty happy with my pretend vagina and the fact that all my documents are female because I do not have a penis. Females do not have penis's, what you need is a third gender marker.

"Oh sh?t! did I say that out loud, again?"........

They did say "FOR THEM".

Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2012, 06:47:11 PM
"Oh sh?t! did I say that out loud, again?"........

They did say "FOR THEM".

Um thanks Stephe, I think you were trying to defend me and my logic right?

As for Gretchen, I'm sorry if I offended you. But that's just how I feel. I don't think there was a need for you to respond with so much hatred. It shows that you may not be as happy with yourself as you think.
I'm sorry, but I will insist that I am 100% female, penis or not. To think that the penis makes the man shows a phallic and Freudian sentimentality. A man who has had his penis removed because of cancer is no less a man. By the same token, a man who has had his penis removed because "he" feels "he" is trans is no less a man. (To think removing the penis can change gender is backwards thinking). I believe gender is not connected to the genitals. Unless a genetic male has a female gender removing the male genitals will do nothing. And FOR ME, I still believe that removing my genitals will do nothing to make me feel better about myself. If you think I like my genitals, I will tell you I do not. They cause me great pain. I only use them to urinate. I wish they would just fall off. But I must accept the hand I was dealt and deal with it. To spend my life moaning and lamenting something I had no control over is a waste of my life.

To sum up what I'm saying: I think the surgery to construct a vagina can be useful for some women, but not all. I also think that those who feel that having a vagina, or not having a penis, is the only thing that makes them female are reinforcing the male dominated thinking patterns of our society. In the end, our bodies will rot and decay. We will die. All we have is our spirit and our mind.

I have no idea where you are getting hatred out of my response. You say you do not mean to offend when you say pretend vagina or it's not real then maybe you should think of some other way to to express your thoughts because you did  offend, and you still are offencive. If you wish it would just fall off and you hate it so much then why don't just go have surgery and your gender marker problem is solved. I also have no idea where I said having your penis removed changes your gender, did I say that? no.

What does this mean?

Quote from: Hippolover25 on September 09, 2012, 07:33:02 PM
By the same token, a man who has had his penis removed because "he" feels "he" is trans is no less a man.

No more.  Administrators will review the "reputation" points given in this thread.

*Grabs Popcorn and kicks up legs*

Quote from: Hippolover25 on September 03, 2012, 01:06:19 PM
Is there no way to change your gender marker if you don't have surgery? It just seems so very unfair to force a gender upon someone because of their biological sex. I know that I will likely be non-op. I feel that all the surgery would do for me is give me--and I don't meant to offend here, but this is just how I feel--a pretend vagina. It wouldn't be real. I wouldn't be me. It would actually make me more depressed I think.

What happens if I just start filling out applications and paperwork and putting that I am female? Is that illegal? Is it wrong? I don't think it is. They asked my gender, so I told them. If they asked my sex, I would tell them too.

Likewise, what I say here is not intended to offend either !

Saying your a female and a "gurl" is fine, not having the physical parts as it were, will never let you appear "physically" to be that gender in situations where you have shared area's of undressing with other people of the so called same sex. You would never be able to use area's like that, plus additionally you will always be classed as a "chick with a dick".

I like my pretend vagina as you call it, I chose to have this done, to feel more complete as a woman on my journey in changing my body, and to psycologically match my mental gender with my physical sex. Remember SRS isnt for everyone, and not everyone would really benefit from it anyway.

If you dont mind also looking for dates with men who like you as you are, then good for you, but for me, I could never of had sex with another man with a penis, still on my body, thats 101 homosexualism I am afraid. Simple as that..

Besides the "pretend" vagina looks really awsome, and look pretty identical to the real ones, I guess depending on the surgeon, but even so, its not really fair to refer to it as "pretend" as it implies your not a "real" woman as well. Remember many women go through operations on their Vagina's every year, to have things removed, through different reasons, so I guess they also are then only half a woman too by the same logic ! Having a penis would make you even LESS pyhsically a woman.

Its simple 101 biology.

Catherine <3

Quote from: Ave on September 10, 2012, 12:20:23 AM
*And I DO realize that this has the very real potential of offending some people, but just about everything can offend everyone and I think it's important that contrasting viewpoints remain uncensored when not "purposely"  incindiary to other individuals/members/whoever.

Quote from: Ave on September 10, 2012, 02:21:21 AM
As for real women and not real women, I think I'll remain mum on that one so no one gets offended.

What? Becoming more sensitive to others already?

Quote from: Ave on September 10, 2012, 02:21:21 AM
I think when the results of mtf SRS result in a vagina with uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes and all that jazz, I'll see it as a more viable option and by that time the lines will have blurred enough for me to consider it more "valid".

Those are all separate parts of a women's body, the existence or lack of one does not validate or invalidate the others.

To the OP, "pretend" was probably a poor choice of words as it can have a negative connotation in that context.

If you want my opinion, If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck. An SRS vagina may be man made but its still a vagina, and seeing as the vagina is a distinctly female sexual organ, having one does in fact make you more female. Gender is all encompassing the body, mind and soul. If it wasn't, there would be no reason for us to change our bodies in any way, whether it be genital surgery or hormones. If you don't think you need a vagina to be a woman, cool but don't try to invalidate others to level the field with yourself.

Quote from: Ave on September 10, 2012, 06:51:43 AM
Sorry , wasn't aware that you were an administrator or a moderator. If they find the post offensive enough, then they'll take it down. If not, they wont, and it's all cool.

I was jokingly calling you out on claiming to think offensive things should be uncensored and out in the open yet holding back to prevent offense several posts down.

Quote from: Ave on September 10, 2012, 06:51:43 AM
(and I don't identify as a woman, so noone's trying to level the field of "womandom" or what have you )

That wasn't directed at you. Sorry to confuse placing it under one of your quotes.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on September 10, 2012, 05:40:25 AM
To the OP,

everything after that was to the OP

  Let's please return to the main questions of this thread.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on September 03, 2012, 01:06:19 PM
Is there no way to change your gender marker if you don't have surgery?

And:

Quote from: Hippolover25 on September 03, 2012, 01:06:19 PM
What happens if I just start filling out applications and paperwork and putting that I am female? Is that illegal? Is it wrong? I don't think it is. They asked my gender, so I told them. If they asked my sex, I would tell them too.

Thank you.

-Connie Anne
Global Moderator

I don't think anyone addressed putting F on paperwork pre-op.

It depends on who is asking. If it's a state government form or buying airline tickets, I would not recommend putting anything other than your state legal ID marker. I believe on federal forms no matter what the state allows, the feds require surgery to put anything other than your birth gender. I have a feeling soon that might change given how they are dealing with passports now but that hasn't happened yet. As far as work, personally given my state doesn't allow marker change pre-op, I would mark F but tell whoever was interviewing me (or the boss as soon as I was hired) "I used to be a guy a long time ago, is that gonna be a problem?" Clearly if the state allows marker change just put what's on it, the SSA no longer reports if the gender doesn't match state and federal documents.

If you fly in the US, the TSA wants to see the gender marker on your ID and ticket match, the names match and your picture ID to look like you present. So whatever your legal ID shows needs to be used. Trust me when I say I have flown several times lately and they don't even blink an eye at trans people anymore. If the gender marker on the legal ID and ticket don't match, you have a problem. Likewise if lets say your legal picture ID has you in guy mode and you show up to fly as a women (esp if you look real different), that might create at least some discussion.

If you are trying to be deep stealth and pre-op or something like that, I don't know what the answer is but the last thing I would want is to be thrown in jail over falsifying my ID to try to avoid embarrassment.

Quote from: Gretchen on September 09, 2012, 06:22:39 PM
So let me get this right, you think SRS is creating a pretend vagina? and you think being a girl with a penis is more  realistic, socially acceptable, worthy of gender marker change to female? I'm pretty happy with my pretend vagina and the fact that all my documents are female because I do not have a penis. Females do not have penis's, what you need is a third gender marker.

I don't want to insult the intersexed since they are the third gender, looks like you'll have to come up with something else.

FYI"females do not have XY chromosomes and a prostate either.

Ladies and gentlemen,

We have had a bunch of smites in this topic, several posts deleted by the Moderators, and it is giving the Administrators a collective headache.

Please keep to the original subject.

The lock button is mere centimeters away, and I have an itchy trigger finger.