I'd be interested in hearing about whether anyone else has followed this path or not.

It's been about 3 weeks since my TG feelings returned (after a 25 year hiatus [more or less]), and I've taken several steps.  I've discussed my feelings with my wife, my doctor, and found a psychologist I really like.

Unfortunately, I come from a very strongly conservative background.  Namely, I'm one of those independent, fundamental, KJV-only, soul-winning, sin-hating, [insert ultra-conservative description here] Baptist.  I've shaken hands with the infamous Jack Schaap (before he got busted) if that tells you anything.  Yes, there are problems here.

First, let me sincerely and deeply apologize for hateful things that have come out of my mouth (even though you don't know me).  No matter what happens in the future, I have definitely learned to be more compassionate towards ALL people, no matter their struggles or choices.  I've come to the conclusion that while choosing to act upon feelings is a choice, BEING and IDENTIFYING is not a choice, but is an integral part of the individual.

Continuing on with my dilemma.  Obviously since I have become what I've always viewed as an abomination, I'm having some fairly difficult discussions with myself.  The pillars upon which my life has been founded are showing major cracks.  I've been taught all my life that peace and fulfillment comes from surrendering one's life to God; that dying to self is the primary goal and focus of the Christian's life. 

But I don't want to die to self.  I want to be what I've always felt I am, but have worked so hard to bury.  At the very least, I want to pursue HRT and a transition into as close to womanhood as is possible (the jury is still out on SRS). 

However, from my literal perspective of interpreting Scripture, my beliefs and what I am don't jive at all.  Again, I'm shaken at the very core of my being.  I've found myself asking skeptical questions that I haven't dared to ask before, because "whatsover is not of faith is sin."  And so I feel guilt, shame, a return of the self-loathing that I struggle with from time to time.

I've read some of ya'll's more "progressive" posts regarding the authority of, the infallibility (sp?) of, etc. of Scripture, and while I'm considering those options, I'm not convinced.  Doesn't mean I'm done inquiring; it just means I'm not convinced yet.

I've said all that to build up to my current issue.  My most prominent question is this: Am I questioning God, the Bible, everything I believe in - simply because I want to do something that according to my perspective on Scripture is an abomination to God?  Am I trying to find an excuse to be able to sin?

Judging from many posts I've read, I realize many of you hold to a less strict interpretation, but I welcome all of your thoughts and opinions (part of being skeptical is being willing to listen, eh?).  Thank you for reading my wall of text.   

Hello,

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

Unfortunately, I come from a very strongly conservative background.  Namely, I'm one of those independent, fundamental, KJV-only, soul-winning, sin-hating, [insert ultra-conservative description here] Baptist.  I've shaken hands with the infamous Jack Schaap (before he got busted) if that tells you anything.  Yes, there are problems here.

You are not alone coming from that type of background. Retaining that is going to be very,very hard. It is going to be like walking a tightrope. It's going to shake your very foundation. Many will walk away from you or ridicule you.  Now coming from that background who are we to please? Who sees our very heart,souls and minds? How does He see you? Have you asked Him? Does He see you as male or female? Does He go by outward appearances? One of the first things to do is to seek Him.

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

First, let me sincerely and deeply apologize for hateful things that have come out of my mouth (even though you don't know me).  No matter what happens in the future, I have definitely learned to be more compassionate towards ALL people, no matter their struggles or choices.  I've come to the conclusion that while choosing to act upon feelings is a choice, BEING and IDENTIFYING is not a choice, but is an integral part of the individual.

It's not a bad thing if it teaches us compassion. The being and identifying is the rub. Because somehow we are dealing with a disconnect between our mind,heart,soul and spirit. Now what did the Bible tell us about our bodies? Take some time to read Romans 8:18-29. Paul does talk about our bodies being subjected to frustration and we are waiting for their redemtion. Jesus also talks about those who are born eunuchs. If one is born a eunuch is He talking about a birth defect? How wide and deep then is it?

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

Continuing on with my dilemma.  Obviously since I have become what I've always viewed as an abomination, I'm having some fairly difficult discussions with myself.  The pillars upon which my life has been founded are showing major cracks.  I've been taught all my life that peace and fulfillment comes from surrendering one's life to God; that dying to self is the primary goal and focus of the Christian's life. 

Are you truly an abomination in God's sight or is that what you have been taught? Seek Him and ask. This is a time where your foundation is going to be tested and refined no two ways about it. The peace will come when you turn it over to Him and let Him guide you. But make sure you ask Him to confirm it in a very tangible way. Dying to ones self is not fun because it's just as it says,a death.

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

But I don't want to die to self.  I want to be what I've always felt I am, but have worked so hard to bury.  At the very least, I want to pursue HRT and a transition into as close to womanhood as is possible (the jury is still out on SRS). 

God may have you do just that because you have a major factor that God does not take lightly. You have taken a vow to a woman who is now your wife. (This is coming from someone who also was married and had to complete them) It is going to take love and prayer and prayer and more prayer. You will have to hold on to Him for all your worth and don't let go. Are you ready to have Him tell you no or not yet? That may very well be the answer you get at this time.

On this for me I am to wait on Him for His timing. It will be in His time and way.

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

However, from my literal perspective of interpreting Scripture, my beliefs and what I am don't jive at all.  Again, I'm shaken at the very core of my being.  I've found myself asking skeptical questions that I haven't dared to ask before, because "whatsover is not of faith is sin."  And so I feel guilt, shame, a return of the self-loathing that I struggle with from time to time.

Is questioning a lack of faith? Is it guilt or conviction?

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

I've read some of ya'll's more "progressive" posts regarding the authority of, the infallibility (sp?) of, etc. of Scripture, and while I'm considering those options, I'm not convinced.  Doesn't mean I'm done inquiring; it just means I'm not convinced yet.

That's not a bad place to be. You need to be as sure as you can be. No one here can tell you that. That will take time on your knees before God. Only God can show you where your healing needs to be. He can show you if it's emotional,mental,spirtiual, or pyshical problem (Some of them can be tested) and what combinations. I can convince myself I am right but I can't always see what's in there. (Sometimes I don't want to)

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

I've said all that to build up to my current issue.  My most prominent question is this: Am I questioning God, the Bible, everything I believe in - simply because I want to do something that according to my perspective on Scripture is an abomination to God?  Am I trying to find an excuse to be able to sin?

Ask for wisdom and ask Him if it's an excuse.

Coming from a conservative background there are some reality's that are going to have to be faced with your marriage. (Please this is only from a conservative background) You say you had this 25 years ago,if your wife did not know this when you got married,she is going to feel like she was lied to,betrayed,etc. She married someone she thought was a man. When you married her she was given,by you,when you said I do,God given rights to your body. She has a claim on your body,and part of that has to do with her physical needs. If she requests that you not go through with the HRT, and SRS,will you submit to her request? Will you bring it to a point of divorce? What about that issue?
Would you bring it to a place where you cause her to fall into adultery? Because coming from the conservative side the only cause for divorce is for adultery. (Been there myself)

Coming from this side God will NOT let you "off the hook" so to speak about your marriage.

Most fundamentalists will NOT tell you that in the KJV that the word abomination is used the most in Leviticus Chapter 11. What is chapter 11 about? It's about the dietary laws. It is used 11 times in that chapter? Do they eat any of the following?

Land Animals
Swine
Boar - Peccary - Pig (hog, bacon, ham, lard, pork)
Canines
Coyote - Dog - Fox - Hyena - Jackal - Wolf
Equines
Ass - Donkey - Mule - Horse - Onager - Zebra (quagga)
Felines
Cat - Cheetah - Leopard - Lion - Panther - Tiger

Unclassified
Armadillo - Badger - Bear - Beaver - Camel - Elephant - Gorilla - Groundhog - Hare - Hippopotamus
Kangaroo - Llama (alpaca, vicuña) - Mole - Monkey - Mouse - Muskrat - Opossum - Porcupine
Rabbit - Raccoon - Rat - Rhinoceros - Skunk - Slug - Snail (escargot) - Squirrel - Wallaby
Weasel - Wolverine - Worm

Insects
All insects are unclean except some in the Locust family.

Birds
Albatross - Bat - Bittern - Buzzard - Condor - Coot - Cormorant - Crane - Crow - Cuckoo - Eagle
Flamingo - Grebe - Grosbeak - Gull - Hawk - Heron - Kite - Lapwing - Loon - M->-bleeped-<-ie - Osprey
Ostrich - Owl - Parrot - Pelican - Penguin - Plover - Rail - Raven - Roadrunner - Sandpiper
Seagull - Stork - Swallow - Swift - Vulture - Water Hen - Woodpecker

Reptiles and Amphibians
Reptiles
Alligator - Caiman - Crocodile - Lizard - Snake - Turtle
Amphibians
Blindworm - Frog - Newt - Salamander - Toad

Fish and Marine Animals
Fish
Bullhead - Catfish - Eel - European turbot - Marlin - Paddlefish - Shark
Stickleback - Squid - Sturgeon (includes most caviar) - Swordfish
Shellfish
Abalone - Clam - Crab - Crayfish - Lobster - Mussel - Prawn - Oyster - Scallop - Shrimp
Soft Body
Cuttlefish - Jellyfish - Limpet - Octopus - Squid (calamari)
Sea Mammals
Dolphin - Otter - Porpoise - Seal - Walrus - Whale

Long list by the way.

But what happened to change it? In Acts 10 Peter has the dream about the unclean foods

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

But it comes with a balance because those things that God does not cleanse are still unclean. They are repeated throughout the New Testament.

When one comes to this verse it does cause some consternation,

Deuteronomy 22:5

5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

But the question is what does this mean? Is Moses referring to a deception and temple prostitution or is he referring to something more? Each means something different. If God sees us as the other is it then a deception to do so? We have to remember that God also hates lies. Who is he speaking to,when and why? First he is speaking to the Israelites,just before going into the promise land. One of the things they were to keep away from was the practices of the people of the lands they were going into. One of which was male temple prostitutes dressing as female. Prostitution itself was not seen as good,then add deception and it's very easy to see where it would be an abomination. Two they were going to go to war. If one was an able bodied  male it would have been expected that you would be enlisted. If one was an able bodied female you would not be going. That was a law that had already been given. Here again if one were to use a deception (a lie) to either go or not go  is it not easy to see in that case how in God's sight that would be an abomination? But if God does see us on the inside as being the other is it a deception?

Keep these posts coming...they're all good thinking material. 

The thing is it's all things I was forced to face myself. My foundation was shaken to it's very core and I am still having to work through some things. The thing is you will find most in here are not fundamentalists any more. It's a very hard position to be in because it is very,very tough to work through it that way.

The one thing I stress the most is to hold on to God and He will get you through it. It may not be the way you want but it will be the way that will please Him and keep you close to Him.

Something else for you to consider. Remember it's not going to be the Pope,a priest,a pastor,your friends or relatives who will be your final judge. Your final judge will be Jesus. And the real questions will be did you know God,trust God,love God, and obey God? The rest is in the details.

My faith centers on God is love and Christ taught us to love ALL people. The rest is insignificant details. As others have said, until people who want to beat me about the head with the old testament are following ALL the old testament rules and applying them as well, it just makes no sense and I ignore them and their "teachings". The one that kills me the most of even Jesus said divorce is bad yet they don't blink an eye at that one anymore. But pull out one verse of the old testament to try to beat me up. *yawns*

People over the decades have pick and chosen specific things in the bible to beat other people up with.  It's not their job to attack other people anyway. It's their job to love others and treat them as they would want to be treated. At least if they are Christians. I highly doubt they would want to be treated the way some of them treat LGBT individuals. I also have to believe if being gay etc was such an abomination under God, I would think Jesus himself might have touched on that subject at some point? Yet he didn't.

They forget the main thing that Jesus showed them the same type of mercy,grace,compassion and love that we are to show for one another. What I am dealing with may not be the same as what someone else is dealing with. But even so we are all in the same boat.
There is not one who is so good that they have the right to condemn someone else.

If I have learned one thing it's that His grace is sufficient for all of my short comings and failures. He still loves me despite all of that and He gets the short end of the stick. He gets a broken down wreck who screwed up royally,who stumbles miserably,is unsure of herself,was a liar,a thief,a drug abuser,self absorbed human being. He took all that away and has made me new. As a Christian I am to remember what I was and where He brought me. And so are all the others.

I really believe God doesn't give two flips about what clothes we wear, what gender we live as or even what sex our partners are. What God cares about is how we treat other human beings and do we show them the same love he shows us. It's our job to let Gods love flow thru us onto others, not to block it or to turn people away from God.

A great analogy someone once gave me about this subject: Think of Gods love as a bright light with people all around it. We should let Gods light shine through us so that it strikes the person behind us. Not to block it and create a shadow so it never touches them or any of the people behind them.

Thinking of it this way, I don't think any of these details makes even a tiny bit of difference. People need to stop looking at the trees and see the forest.

Quote from: Stephe on September 12, 2012, 09:20:25 PM
I really believe God doesn't give two flips about what clothes we wear, what gender we live as or even what sex our partners are. What God cares about is how we treat other human beings and do we show them the same love he shows us. It's our job to let Gods love flow thru us onto others, not to block it or to turn people away from God.

Part of it comes down to obeying Him. I think He cares far more about us then we realize. The thing is what usually happens is that people try so hard to change someone from the outside in. God reverses it and works from the inside out. It just works so much better that way. The one is often forced, the other comes out of love and wanting to obey. God so often works on the things that keep us the farthest away from Him FIRST.

It's not going to be the same for me as it is for someone else. If for me it's suicidal tendencies,drug addictions, and lying,is it right for me to say that you have to clean those things up first otherwise you are not and can not be a Christian? What if in someone elses life He is working on greed,adultery, and cursing? None of us have it down yet. It's a continual process as He conforms us to Christ's image. That is His work.

Quote from: Stephe on September 12, 2012, 09:20:25 PM

A great analogy someone once gave me about this subject: Think of Gods love as a bright light with people all around it. We should let Gods light shine through us so that it strikes the person behind us. Not to block it and create a shadow so it never touches them or any of the people behind them.

That is exactly it. To often Christian's will put up barriers to keep people from Christ. All who call on His name and follow will be saved. All means just that all. To often all people see is the people who are suppose to be His act as accuser,judge and jury. They see Christian's who are suppose to act like Jesus,act like some weird conglomeration of pick and choose items from a laundry list.

What most people are shown is a weak,shallow,feeble image of Christ. Not the risen,victorious,living Son of God,who was victorious over death. They see people trying to make Him in their own shallow and feeble image. The Jesus I know is the one who's love for us is so great that there is nothing so great that can keep us away if we come to Him. The same Jesus who walked with the lepers,forgave an adulteress,had dinners with sinners,told a thief he would be in paradise with Him the very same day,restored a guy who denied Him,forgave a murderer and made him an apostle,made a rag tag bunch of so called "losers" His disciples,talked to a hated foreigner,and turned on the self righteous religious leaders of His day,knowing they would seek His death and do so. Does this Jesus sound like the same Jesus that is far to often shown?

Maybe just maybe we are to point the way to Jesus and then get out of the way and let God do His thing.

As a Christian this should be our motivation in all we do and all we say

[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

And as a Christian this should be one of our prayers

[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]


(I just wish I knew how to put the song on here and not just the lyrics)

Two of my favorite songs by them

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

Unfortunately, I come from a very strongly conservative background.  Namely, I'm one of those independent, fundamental, KJV-only, soul-winning, sin-hating, [insert ultra-conservative description here] Baptist.  I've shaken hands with the infamous Jack Schaap (before he got busted) if that tells you anything.  Yes, there are problems here.

I just want to touch on this with the KJV. I do use it but I also use the comparison. One of the biggest problems with going with the KJV only is that English is a fluid language along with almost every other language that is spoken,the only exception is Latin as it is a dead language. It's meanings will not change as it is set and will no longer change.

Take for instance that if you were talking to my grandfather and was speaking using the words gay and ->-bleeped-<-got,and you did NOT know his definition of those words you would think he was being derogatory to homosexuals,but if you knew his definitions he would be speaking of someone being happy and a unit of measure for iron. Both being world's apart. So if that's true of just 2words in less than 100 years,then how much more has the meanings changed since 1611 when the KJV was first written?

In the KJV for instance they use the word unicorn nine times but do they really mean a horse like animals (modern definition) with a single horn or do they mean a different animal with one horn? Does such an animal still exist that has a single horn that can not be bridled? We may have a winner here there is an animal that does have one horn,can not be bridled and still lives this day in India, it's scientific name is Rhinoceros unicornis or it's common name is the Indian Rhinoceros. If one didn't know that it would be very easy to dismiss it as a fantasy because we all "know" that unicorns don't exist. (At least the pretty little pony type,although they are cute)

Since 1611 we use different syntax also,we do not speak old English,and some of the words are very difficult to understand without a dictionary from that time period. A lot of people could not understand a passage like this

Job 38:9-11

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

What does swaddlingband and hitherto mean? For most they will have no idea. If you don't know what those two mean than how can one understand what is meant "And break up for it my decreed place"? By no means are these the only places. We need to be careful that we know what is being said.

 I guess my own faith is less complex, I just let Gods love into my life then try to share love and compassion with others. And I always filter any 'rule' "Does this hinder me from showing other people love and compassion or hurt others?" If not, it's likely of little consequence. I'm NOT gonna get upset when I eat shrimp for example.

And I simply see Christ as Gods love brought to our level of understanding as an example to follow. Maybe some people see Christs life in earth as "weak"? I know the people at the time did and why many to this day won't accept he was the Messiah, they were looking for a military leader to lead them to victory. It's all a matter of perspective. What Christ delivered was a VERY powerful message for those who will listen to it.

The problem I see is many people try to use Gods words to their own selfish ends.

Quote from: Stephe on September 13, 2012, 09:06:37 AM
I guess my own faith is less complex, I just let Gods love into my life then try to share love and compassion with others. And I always filter any 'rule' "Does this hinder me from showing other people love and compassion or hurt others?" If not, it's likely of little consequence. I'm NOT gonna get upset when I eat shrimp for example.

And I simply see Christ as Gods love brought to our level of understanding as an example to follow. Maybe some people see Christs life in earth as "weak"? I know the people at the time did and why many to this day won't accept he was the Messiah, they were looking for a military leader to lead them to victory. It's all a matter of perspective. What Christ delivered was a VERY powerful message for those who will listen to it.

The problem I see is many people try to use Gods words to their own selfish ends.

You shouldn't get upset by eating shrimp. That was set aside and no one should tell you that it hasn't been. On some of the things on the list they just don't sound too appealing. Would one really want to eat a rat or a vulture unless they had to? Some are just way to cute like puppies,kittens,and bunnies. (I just couldn't because they are so cute) Some just seem way to dangerous for me to try to track down and kill for lunch,like a panther,tiger or bear. I most likely would end up being their lunch. Seafood I am alergic to so.... Does it mean that I wouldn't or I shouldn't, of course not. If it came down to me and a rat,sorry the rat would lose. (Not my first choice)

If you like shrimp go for it girl. No one else is to be your judge in this matter.


He came to set us free. 

Quote from: Stephe on September 13, 2012, 09:06:37 AM
I guess my own faith is less complex, I just let Gods love into my life then try to share love and compassion with others. And I always filter any 'rule' "Does this hinder me from showing other people love and compassion or hurt others?" If not, it's likely of little consequence. I'm NOT gonna get upset when I eat shrimp for example.

Just thought about this but my one dream has always been to see a true Church made up of rich and poor,educated and uneducated,black,brown,yellow,white,red and olive skinned,fancy homed people and those who need a home,those who have dealt with GLBT issues,biker dudes and dudetts,those who were gang members and prostitutes,drug abusers and alcoholics,broken down people,ex sex offenders, and those who had the fortune not to walk there. All in one accord living,breathing,and loving as Jesus did. It just seems like a pipe dream,but one can hope.

I recommend listening to the audio sermons I found Incarnadine
, they started me on a road to begin to let go of the guilt. It has sermons about all LGBT people (including the T)

http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/

Then I also saw a video a pastor did claiming that lgbt people had 300-600 sexual relationships per year, when i saw the fundamentalists lying about people it also awoke me.

Thinking Biblically About Homosexuality (1 COR 6:9-10) Sermon - John MacArthur [CC]

when you get to the part about 600 sexual partners a year and then you realize the average male has 9 in there lifetime and women have an average of 4 you know something is up.

You gotta love the pastors that don't present scripture, then invite reflection and interaction from the audience but instead lecture the on how their beliefs are the "true and righteous" ones. And of course anyone who doesn't believe as they do down to the last detail is gonna fry in hell for all eternity.

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 13, 2012, 09:09:30 AM
You shouldn't get upset by eating shrimp.

It's an abomination under Gods eyes as well..

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/