Ok I am going to open a big old can of worms here...

What if a spouse is accepting in the sense they still love you and want to remain in the marriage, but they are unable to fully grasp TS and all it entails?

What if a spouse is willing to live with you and TS so long as it all remains *in the closet* so to speak?

What if a spouse is willing to deal with you dressing incl make up etc in the privacy of your home or on occasions out of the town you live in, but specifically does not want you to transition or take hormones to progress change let alone any potential SRS?

What if a spouse cannot deal with their own sexuality wrt your TS and what it makes them, yet still wants to remain in the marriage?

How much can a person with TS compromise and give up for the sake of the spouse? And, are the compromises healthy in the end for the person that is TS?

Sorry TWC, it just doesn't work.  It won't stay in the closet, it won't stay in the house, etc.  The feelings just get too strong, to unrelenting and unfortunately in "most" cases the supporting wife, is only supporting for so long.  And only as long as you do things according to "her" terms. 

Is that really being supportive?

IMHO.

I know I sound a little bitter, sorry.

Sarah

I wouldn't think that'd be healthy. We (generally) have enough insecurities in relationships and many of those would feed into the insecurities.

Except the in the closet one - I don't mind that my partner would rather that her family and others don't know she's dating a trans guy. I don't think it's any of their business. I'm a guy and that's all they need to know. But if I had a partner who expected to pass me off as female, I'd be out of there pretty damn fast.

As far as sexuality, I had thought that I could cope if a partner had difficulty with my alternative configuration, but having experienced the opposite, I know I couldn't cope with a relationship like that.

If my spouse before transition had wanted any of those compromises, I would have left. It would be stifling and highly damaging to my self esteem.

Dennis

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AMWhat if a spouse is accepting in the sense they still love you and want to remain in the marriage, but they are unable to fully grasp TS and all it entails?

I don't fully grasp TS.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AMWhat if a spouse is willing to live with you and TS so long as it all remains *in the closet* so to speak?

What if a spouse is willing to deal with you dressing incl make up etc in the privacy of your home or on occasions out of the town you live in, but specifically does not want you to transition or take hormones to progress change let alone any potential SRS?

Not an option GID doesn't compromise not with you, your partner, or anyone else.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AMWhat if a spouse cannot deal with their own sexuality wrt your TS and what it makes them, yet still wants to remain in the marriage?

I don't really see this as a TS question. The answer would depend on how important the individual's sexuality is to them which is an independent factor.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AMHow much can a person with TS compromise and give up for the sake of the spouse? And, are the compromises healthy in the end for the person that is TS?

A TS can not compromise living as their natural gender that simply isn't on the table. Beyond that it depends on the individual and what's important to them.

Quote from: Nikki_W on May 17, 2007, 12:28:17 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AMWhat if a spouse cannot deal with their own sexuality wrt your TS and what it makes them, yet still wants to remain in the marriage?

I don't really see this as a TS question. The answer would depend on how important the individual's sexuality is to them which is an independent factor.

I do because it affects the TS sexually. If a TS is sexual and wants to remain so and their spouse can't get over the hurdle is that just another compromise the TS has to make for the spouse?

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 12:31:54 PMI do because it affects the TS sexually. If a TS is sexual and wants to remain so and their spouse can't get over the hurdle is that just another compromise the TS has to make for the spouse?

The distinction I'm drawing is that TS isn't about sexuality it's about gender. Yes it's a compromise situation. Yes in this case it would be triggered by changes caused by transition but it could also be caused by 1 partner getting fat.

When it comes to expressing one's self as their natural gender that is a TS issue and isn't subject to compromise.

But things like sexual activity(or lack there of), who mows the lawn, who cleans the bathroom, ect are normal relationship compromises not a part of being TS and can't be generalized for TS people.

Quote from: Nikki_W on May 17, 2007, 01:31:00 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 12:31:54 PMI do because it affects the TS sexually. If a TS is sexual and wants to remain so and their spouse can't get over the hurdle is that just another compromise the TS has to make for the spouse?

The distinction I'm drawing is that TS isn't about sexuality it's about gender. Yes it's a compromise situation. Yes in this case it would be triggered by changes caused by transition but it could also be caused by 1 partner getting fat.

When it comes to expressing one's self as their natural gender that is a TS issue and isn't subject to compromise.

But things like sexual activity(or lack there of), who mows the lawn, who cleans the bathroom, ect are normal relationship compromises not a part of being TS and can't be generalized for TS people.

Nikki of course it is a part of being TS in the scenario I paint in the OP because we are talking about a marriage. A partnership, and TS affects BOTH parties right down to those little things you call compromises. Just because sexuality isn't what being TS is all about it does in fact affect the sexuality of the partner and therefore is a valid part of the TSism.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 02:07:08 PMNikki of course it is a part of being TS in the scenario I paint in the OP because we are talking about a marriage. A partnership, and TS affects BOTH parties right down to those little things you call compromises. Just because sexuality isn't what being TS is all about it does in fact affect the sexuality of the partner and therefore is a valid part of the TSism.

Maybe I'm confused, I thought you were asking for opinions? I gave my opinion.

Quote from: NikkiI don't really see...

Quote from: NikkiThe distinction I'm drawing...

Quote from: togetherwecanNikki of course it is a part of being TS...

Is there some documentation I'm missing that makes your opinion fact and mine wrong?

Quote from: Nikki on May 17, 2007, 02:26:45 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 02:07:08 PMNikki of course it is a part of being TS in the scenario I paint in the OP because we are talking about a marriage. A partnership, and TS affects BOTH parties right down to those little things you call compromises. Just because sexuality isn't what being TS is all about it does in fact affect the sexuality of the partner and therefore is a valid part of the TSism.

Maybe I'm confused, I thought you were asking for opinions? I gave my opinion.

Quote from: NikkiI don't really see...

Quote from: NikkiThe distinction I'm drawing...

Quote from: togetherwecanNikki of course it is a part of being TS...

Is there some documentation I'm missing that makes your opinion fact and mine wrong?

sorry Nikki, we kinda got off topic because it seemed to me in your opinion you invalidated the spouse by defining what is and isnt TS related for them (not for you). No harm no foul, didn't mean to make you feel drawn out., I was seeking clarity.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 02:38:30 PMsorry Nikki, we kinda got off topic because it seemed to me in your opinion you invalidated the spouse by defining what is and isnt TS related for them (not for you). No harm no foul, didn't mean to make you feel drawn out., I was seeking clarity.

No that wasn't my intent I'd agree it's TS related but I don't feel it's part of TS.

To me it's 2 separate issues.

There's the GID and that is non-negotiable. If a TS individual has to transition they will and no compromise or half measures are possible. At best depending on the strength of the GID they "might" be able to negotiate the time line. But the neither the TS individual nor the partner controls the destination so it can't be compromised.

Then transition is a major change that even in a 100% supportive relation will flip it upside down and require reassessing many or most interactions. To me sexual activity is a part of this not part of GID. Whether it can be compromised depends on the individuals sexual feelings and willingness to compromise not their GID. Same as who does what chores. I see these as part of the individual's personality and dependent on the individual not their GID.

Speaking from experience, the entire scenario is more wishful thinking than anything else. I know that what happened to me may not hold true for everyone else. However, repression of any kind of any aspect of our being will lead to anxiety and resentment. the worst thing that ever happened was losing my last girlfriend. We tried to "hide it" and ignore it. all it did was blow up in the end and now she still has deeply seeded issues with the whole situation because of it.

Growing up and making grown decisions is a part of life. We can't please everyone all of the time. The only way to true personal happiness is to accept ourselves for who we are and live life on our own terms.

This was a great book to help get over those hurdles - http://www.amazon.com/Loving-What-Four-Questions-Change

Ok I am going to open a big old can of worms here...

What if a spouse is accepting in the sense they still love you and want to remain in the marriage, but they are unable to fully grasp TS and all it entails?

That is a nearly exact description of my own situation

What if a spouse is willing to live with you and TS so long as it all remains *in the closet* so to speak?

I think that this might be possible for some who are not living with 'acute' TS, but in my 'laywoman's' perception and level of knowledge, most of us simply cannot do this.

It needs also be born in mind that TS progressively worsens with age. What is 'doable' now, may well become intolerable [or even fatal], in the future.

What if a spouse is willing to deal with you dressing incl make up etc in the privacy of your home or on occasions out of the town you live in, but specifically does not want you to transition or take hormones to progress change let alone any potential SRS?

In most cases, this would not be possible, nor would it represent a reasonable or realistic demand.

What if a spouse cannot deal with their own sexuality wrt your TS and what it makes them, yet still wants to remain in the marriage?

Hhhhmmmmm................sometimes, being old is advantageous. Hell, I don't know, girl....

With her, the issue of sex appears to be 'optional' and not sufficient cause for the termination of our union. I have made it clear to her however, that sex was a perfectly legitimate desire and it was completely understood if she needed and wanted to fulfill such and accordingly, we would seek an actual divorce.

Neither she nor I will seek sexual gratification outside of the marriage.

But this marital stasis may well be altered after I acquire my GRS. My libido has never diminished. But I just do not know....

Ours is a very special and intimate relationship, founded upon much love, respect, care for each other and great compatibility.

Speaking only for myself, I would sacrifice sex, post-GRS, in order to sustain our relationship. We view the marriage as sacrosanct, notwithstanding the vast changes which have occurred over the past couple of years.

To sustain the beauty which we still share, I can deal with it.

How much can a person with TS compromise and give up for the sake of the spouse? And, are the compromises healthy in the end for the person that is TS?

At this point in our lives, I could sacrifice sex with men [and I am strictly hetero] in order to preserve our union.

Insofar as transition itself is concerned? No compromise is possible and it will continue unabated.

For me, transition is LIFE.

If we take out the TS aspect and use any other form of self-repression it is still repression. So we sacrifice ourselves in the name of being TS? What kind of sick game is that? why would people want to give up being able to say they are happy with who they are instead of wishing they could be who they want to be?

Together,
Think about what Renae asked:

"why would people want to give up being able to say they are happy with who they are instead of wishing they could be who they want to be?"

I really think that gets down to the core of the issue. I'm sure you love your wife, so much though that the thought of losing her hurts you very much. I think you need to weigh how happy you would be suppressing yourself for the rest of your life, suppressing who you really are vs. the feelings you think you get from love. I just think that love has to be rooted first in self love. How can she really love you if you haven't gotten a chance to be who you really are? Are you in counseling? I think you really need a disinterested third party to help guide you through this. Be true to yourself, love yourself, then you can be loved by others, that's kind of how I think about it.

For context TWC is a GG in love with an MTF(can I buy a word to put between the acronyms?)

Quote from: Nikki on May 25, 2007, 10:14:08 AM
For context TWC is a GG in love with an MTF(can I buy a word to put between the acronyms?)

Ok, then take out the TS aspect and what she is talking about is still a form of self-repression. See my above comment for my POV on that.

TWC, first, I think it's very positive that you, as a SO come to this site. It must be very hard for both of you to be going through this. I think the hardest decision is whether you are in love w/your husband for who he is and wants to truly be, the person inside, or whether the idea of that change and what it means to you, your family, friends, etc. might be too much for you. It's such a difficult decision, but ultimately it needs to be mde. I don't see how he is going to ever truly be happy living with this inside of him and not being able to follow his heart. I'd like to think that 2 people in love can conquer anything but...that's sometimes not reality. Meghan

I suspect my view is ... rather harsh. But how is this...

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AM
What if a spouse is accepting in the sense they still love you and want to remain in the marriage, but they are unable to fully grasp TS and all it entails?

It depends; all in all this is the normal state for quite some time as near as I can tell; You both work together and adapt.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AM
What if a spouse is willing to live with you and TS so long as it all remains *in the closet* so to speak?

^*cough* Gee, thanks a whole great big lot.

Love ME, not what the Joneses think.

^*shrug* Of all the things this annoys me the most because it is blatant 'fair-weather love'. An to me, that is insulting.

Fair-weather friends I can understand (I.e. they aren't.); But in a love relationship there is no place for such garbage.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AM
What if a spouse is willing to deal with you dressing incl make up etc in the privacy of your home or on occasions out of the town you live in, but specifically does not want you to transition or take hormones to progress change let alone any potential SRS?

I am sorry, good bye.


That is in essence the situation; This TS thing doesn't stop, doesn't relent. I.e. as has been said before it won't stay in the closet.

This also falls under the above but less so; This point of view is at least trying to grasp what in tarnation is going on. In my opinion, of course.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AM
What if a spouse cannot deal with their own sexuality wrt your TS and what it makes them, yet still wants to remain in the marriage?

Sexuality is over rated; This said, and from what I have seen (heck, for that matter experienced) this is the largest, saddest reason for a partner being TS to cause a breakup. An as it happens, one of the primary things that made me understand that I wasn't heterosexual. Sexuality means very little to me in a relationship, but for others it is VERY important.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 11:59:20 AM
How much can a person with TS compromise and give up for the sake of the spouse? And, are the compromises healthy in the end for the person that is TS?

How much depends on the person and the severity of this affliction. The short answer is it depends greatly. However, from what I have seen here compromises tend to not work so well in the long run it seems; But again, it depends on the situation.


Just a copper in the wishing well...

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on May 25, 2007, 09:07:29 AM
Together,
Think about what Renae asked:

"why would people want to give up being able to say they are happy with who they are instead of wishing they could be who they want to be?"

I really think that gets down to the core of the issue. I'm sure you love your wife, so much though that the thought of losing her hurts you very much. I think you need to weigh how happy you would be suppressing yourself for the rest of your life, suppressing who you really are vs. the feelings you think you get from love. I just think that love has to be rooted first in self love. How can she really love you if you haven't gotten a chance to be who you really are? Are you in counseling? I think you really need a disinterested third party to help guide you through this. Be true to yourself, love yourself, then you can be loved by others, that's kind of how I think about it.

Brooke is married, but not to me. So take *me* out of the equasion of your answers 
I want Brooke to transition and yes I am in love with her.

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on May 25, 2007, 10:52:01 AM
TWC, first, I think it's very positive that you, as a SO come to this site. It must be very hard for both of you to be going through this. I think the hardest decision is whether you are in love w/your husband for who he is and wants to truly be, the person inside, or whether the idea of that change and what it means to you, your family, friends, etc. might be too much for you. It's such a difficult decision, but ultimately it needs to be mde. I don't see how he is going to ever truly be happy living with this inside of him and not being able to follow his heart. I'd like to think that 2 people in love can conquer anything but...that's sometimes not reality. Meghan

he? 
I am not married to Brooke. She is married to someone else. I have NO issues with her TS or transition. I want her to transition. This is a general question and has nothing to do with me per se.

The way the original questions were phrased it was as if from YOUR point of view. We now know they aren't but the validity of our comments still remains to the scenario. If you are looking for supporting information that her marriage is going to fail then you have found it. If she lives in a repressed state then her life will be hell. Even if we take *you* out of the equation, the same logic is applied.