What exactly is a 'conservative' position on the environment?  Does it mean that you support radical conservation (as "conservative" by definition would imply)?  Does it mean you don't believe (or understand) science?  Or does it mean you really, really think that environment protection and enhancement should be an overwhelming concern as Republican President Theodore Roosevelt advocated, and it's importance should be elevated to a cabinet level position like Republican President Richard Nixon did?

Quote from: tekla on September 12, 2012, 06:27:33 PM
What exactly is a 'conservative' position on the environment? 

For me, I'd say I'm skeptical about predictions made by scientists. While correlations and data are hard to question, there is an awful lot that scientists predict that is based on assumptions about details that simply cannot be known. History is littered with doomsday predictions by scientists that proved laughable in retrospect.

Quote from: agfrommd on September 12, 2012, 06:34:42 PM
  History is littered with doomsday predictions by scientists that proved laughable in retrospect.

Ok, i couldn't resist the curiosity. Like what?

I'm voting for the guy who cares for the poor and not the one who wants to trickle on us..

We need enough people getting a decent pay to support a business to be able to expand

DUHHH

well the republicans have basically taken almost all they can from the middle class so they use perverse logic to entrance the ones who do have a job into voting for them and those voters,, the next time the republicans get in office,,, so yes those people will be the last ones to get screwed,,,,,, butt oh how they will eventually get screwed too

and they think by voting republican they will be taken care of LOL LOL LOL

first they came for the gays and i did nothing then they came for the leftist and i did nothing they they came for the middle class and i did nothing then they came for me (the last ones who vote republican) and i couldn't do a damn thing

Quote from: tekla on September 12, 2012, 06:27:33 PM
What exactly is a 'conservative' position on the environment?  Does it mean that you support radical conservation (as "conservative" by definition would imply)?  Does it mean you don't believe (or understand) science?  Or does it mean you really, really think that environment protection and enhancement should be an overwhelming concern as Republican President Theodore Roosevelt advocated, and it's importance should be elevated to a cabinet level position like Republican President Richard Nixon did?

OH MY GAWD  who let TEKLA IN lol .... hey there LTNC and it was good while you were gone .. actually we did miss you.. well some of us did .. ok to be honest we didn't but we don't hate that your back.. ok ok maybe a few do... ok damn it get the heck outta here will ya TEKLA ..



kidding 


WELCOME BACK   KOTTER

Quote from: DianaP on September 12, 2012, 06:36:33 PM
Ok, i couldn't resist the curiosity. Like what?

The most famous is Malthus' prediction of mass starvation. Early global warming predictions had the seas drying up, snow disappearing, and temperature increasing 11 degrees by 2000. When I was young, the prediction was that by the time we were grown, the air would not be breathable, and people would need to carry oxygen with them if they went outside. A time magazine article in the 1970s predicted that by now, computers could do anything human intelligence could do.

The biggest problem is balance. Too far left or too far right each causes problems.  Take paper production. Hemp by far is the better choice,it produces better quality paper produces 4 times as much per acre,does not have to be bleached with Chlorine, but can be whitened by hydrogen peroxide. Then you can take the hemp hurds for paper production and the stalks can be used as clothing. Less energy used to grow it and harvest it then forestry. The only reason it's not grown is because it resembles Marijuana. Does this make sense?

Ethanol production is another good one. Why is it still being done? It costs more in energy to produce it then it yields,yet they will not let it go. Does it make sense to use good food production for fuel as opposed to feeding the hungry?

A bit of common sense and decency would go a long ways to changing things.

Malthus wasn't a scientist, he was a reverend.  His training was in Greek, Latin and Math.

Might want to google 'food riots' and find out how many have happened in the last decade, and the predictions that the drought in the US this year is going to lead to others.  In 2008 there were food riots in 28 different countries.  Much of the unrest that lead to the 'Arab Spring' and the overthrow of several governments (Tunisia and Egypt) just this year started with food problems.

And I assume you have the necessary academic credentials from the proper universities to make such claims about science - or is it just a 'hunch' or something you 'guessed'?

snow disappearing
Oh, you'll want to join in my new contest to rename Glacial National Park.  (Degree of Difficulty: Can't use the word "Glacier")  The Montana park has 26 named glaciers today, down from 150 in 1850, and those are fast melting.
http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/repeatphoto/gg_lake-jo08.htm

We'll be renaming the Hemingway classic The Snows of Kilimanjaro next.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/3000/3054/kilimanjaro_etm_93_00.jpg&imgrefurl=http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id%3D3054&h=817&w=540&

Quote from: tekla on September 12, 2012, 07:26:00 PM
And I assume you have the necessary academic credentials from the proper universities to make such claims about science - or is it just a 'hunch' or something you 'guessed'?

Okay, I appreciate your support of science and don't like it when people bag on science, but you can kindly correct someone without asking a condescending rhetorical question. Discussion of politics is already unstable enough, we don't need to start a cat fight in here too. Let's all just take a deep breath and try to relax.

Just a fun fact to throw on those y'all are using. If we replace all of the land used to raise cattle to raise vegetation, we could easily feed the planet 5 times over. I know that things like hemp, solar//wind//hydro-power are good, but unfortunately, until we fix our divided system and all just come together to rationally and calmly look at common sense, environmental causes are lost.

I tend to vote democrat, as I will again this election.    But ill admit some of the democratic stance on things are odd, but tend to work out in the end.  Only reason I think obama should get another term is because he wasnt allowed to do anything, everything he purposed but obama care got filibuster'ed. in the last 4 years, the Republican party filibusted more then both parties put together over a 10 year time period.  thats why it seems like nothing got done, the innerworkings succeeded in making him look like a failure.  only reason im voting for him again also is because his cabinet passed more laws protecting the Trans community.

not to mention I think mitt's trickle down economic policy is the equivalent of getting pissed on without the courtesy of calling it rain.

It's not condescending to ask if you have proof that somehow goes against the current findings of every scientific body of national or international standing, and if that proof is based on hard science.

And, on this theme, I'll venture that the current conservative embrace of psudo-science and rejection of hard science is keeping a lot of rational people from supporting them and pretty much keeping them a minority political position.  There are a lot of people who think that science is a rational method supported by reason, and though they might not like Obama or the Democrats, they are not about to support the opposition because of the science thing.

Quote from: tekla on September 12, 2012, 07:26:00 PM
Malthus wasn't a scientist, he was a reverend.  His training was in Greek, Latin and Math.

Might want to google 'food riots' and find out how many have happened in the last decade, and the predictions that the drought in the US this year is going to lead to others.  In 2008 there were food riots in 28 different countries.  Much of the unrest that lead to the 'Arab Spring' and the overthrow of several governments (Tunisia and Egypt) just this year started with food problems.

And I assume you have the necessary academic credentials from the proper universities to make such claims about science - or is it just a 'hunch' or something you 'guessed'?

snow disappearing
Oh, you'll want to join in my new contest to rename Glacial National Park.  (Degree of Difficulty: Can't use the word "Glacier")  The Montana park has 26 named glaciers today, down from 150 in 1850, and those are fast melting.
http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/repeatphoto/gg_lake-jo08.htm

We'll be renaming the Hemingway classic The Snows of Kilimanjaro next.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/3000/3054/kilimanjaro_etm_93_00.jpg&imgrefurl=http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id%3D3054&h=817&w=540&

But the scientific data very clearly shows that the Earth is near it 65 million year ambient temperature low.

The are two issues related to "global warming":

1. Is the current warming period, over the last 20,000 years +/- anthropogenic?
2. And is it necessarily a bad thing?

From out here the USA doesn't have any Conservatives.  You seem to have a bunch of Right-Wing extremists all trying to outdo each other in their degree of extremism.  If you were truly Conservative you would still have a Monarchy.   
David Cameron the UK PM is a Conservative who basically said that the Gov't had no business in people's bedrooms, so suppotrs marriage equality.  Pity that Tony Abbott, aka 'The Mad Monk' is following the US trend and ceased to be conservative.

Karen.

Quote from: justmeinoz on September 13, 2012, 03:57:55 AM
From out here the USA doesn't have any Conservatives.  You seem to have a bunch of Right-Wing extremists all trying to outdo each other in their degree of extremism.  If you were truly Conservative you would still have a Monarchy.   
David Cameron the UK PM is a Conservative who basically said that the Gov't had no business in people's bedrooms, so suppotrs marriage equality.  Pity that Tony Abbott, aka 'The Mad Monk' is following the US trend and ceased to be conservative.

Karen.

Some of the fundamental principles of modern American conservatism were laid out by William F Buckley, Jr, in the National Review:

It is the job of centralized government (in peacetime) to protect its citizens' lives, liberty and property. All other activities of government tend to diminish freedom and hamper progress. The growth of government (the dominant social feature of this century) must be fought relentlessly. In this great social conflict of the era, we are, without reservations, on the libertarian side.

The profound crisis of our era is, in essence, the conflict between the Social Engineers, who seek to adjust mankind to conform with scientific utopias, and the disciples of Truth, who defend the organic moral order. We believe that truth is neither arrived at nor illuminated by monitoring election results, binding though these are for other purposes, but by other means, including a study of human experience. On this point we are, without reservations, on the conservative side.

Exactly my point. Pity Romney and his ilk do not follow it. 

Quote from: tekla on September 13, 2012, 02:42:48 AM
It's not condescending to ask if you have proof that somehow goes against the current findings of every scientific body of national or international standing, and if that proof is based on hard science.

True, but you asked for credentials, which is different from proof. I do have to admit that I do not have the credentials you are asking for. I'm just a humble schoolteacher. If that makes me unqualified to continue in this discussion, I will refrain from further posts in this thread.

Quote from: tekla on September 13, 2012, 02:42:48 AM
There are a lot of people who think that science is a rational method supported by reason, and though they might not like Obama or the Democrats, they are not about to support the opposition because of the science thing.

Actually I do like the Democrats better in this election, and I think they are closer to the true conservative values (individual freedom, freedom from government interference in our medical and religious life, avoiding dangerous and experimental overseas military adventures, distaste for nation building experiments, wanting to shrink the bloated military bureaucracy, etc. etc.). I also agree that science is a rational process, and the best one to obtain truth about the world. I only have trouble with it when it is used to make predictions based on incomplete knowledge and assumptions about things that are not known.

I recall being taught the scientific method in 3 & 4th grade, atomic theory (on a level that was only taught in college physics at the graduate school level 30 years before, indeed much of what I was taught was unknown or unproved 30 years before) and evolutionary biology in 5th and beyond, by my teachers in a religious school.  Brother Joe, my HS physics teacher was every bit as good (and in many cases better) then a few of my professors in college.

One area of climate change that is most worrisome is the effect it is already having on food production, like most small but gradual changes it impacts the most delicate crops first.  Here is about 2.25 million articles on what is going on in the European wine industry now.
https://www.google.com/search?q=french+wineries+buying+land+in+england&sugexp=chrome,mod=9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=french+wineries+buying+land+in+england+climate+change&oq=french+wineries+buying+land+in+england+climate+change&gs_l=serp.3..33i21.6091.8401.0.8562.15.14.0.0.0.0.201.1775.2j10j1.13.0.les%3B..0.0...1.1.laRrRw0pGZY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=dc3856d8d691a444&biw=1280&bih=651

So happy to see you posting again Tekla!!!

For me the transgender conservative present the same  dilemma as the Nazi-Jew. Could a Jew be a Nazi, many Jews believed that "certain Jew" either by their intellect, artistic capabilities, or by virtue of the mixed inheritance would escape persecution by the Nazis; history prove them wrong.


How can I support the Republican-Conservative Party whose platform denies me the most basic rights: right to marry who ever I want, right to determine my own gender, and the right to the integrity and self determination of my body. A party bent into imposing into other their own twisted morality.

To see their "twisted' morality just look at the programming offered by the so-called "conservative" TV/cable broadcasters.

It's a pretty clear choice when one side talks about gay/lesbian/transgender in terms of 'rights' in terms of a modern democratic nation-state and the other side can't mention it without using the word 'abomination' in the context of a Bronze Age theology.  That's a pretty bright line.

It's Center- sort-of-leftish and extreme right, there is no real liberal left anymore, and certainty no real Left that ever gets a hearing on the MSM.  I can all too easily upset my pals when I call Obama 'the best Republican President since Eisenhower' since they know it's basically true.  Subtract all the 'diversity' crowd shots of the Democratic Convention and what you have was what use to be called a Republican Convention.

Both parties suck.... No politician seems to have their own opinions anymore, nor do they actually put their country before their politics....