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A Terrible day for mankind - A Philosophical Question

Started by Princess of Hearts, June 12, 2011, 05:41:51 PM

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Princess of Hearts

Question:  It was a terrible day when Homo Sapiens discovered that they were mortal and would one day die.   

Animals never know that they will die.  They don't even realise that they are aging.   An elderly eagle never realises that it has developed cataracts, and an ancient lion doesn't notice or care that its teeth are no longer in good condition.    I believe that knowing we will die is the root of all problems.   The knowledge that one day we won't be here terrifies us and makes incredibly fearful even if we don't realise this most of the time.    Capitalists and other money grubbers think 'hey I'm only going to go around once.  I better grab everything I want and more before I vanish into eternal night.   So f**k the planet and future generations!'.   Other people feel paralysed to varying degrees, and run about like headless chickens thinking to themselves 'I better put off all fun and enjoyment in the here and now and study like crazy so that I get a great job. A job that will let me lead a materially comfortable life where I can assuage my terrible fear of my inevitable death with a large house, fancy car, wine, and trips to expensive restaurants and holidays abroad.'   Those who don't like their jobs etc think 'hey at least this awful, squalid, low-paid job keeps me from the grave just a bit longer even if it sucks most of the joy out of my life.' 
Spiritual and philosophical people invent religions and philosophies - coping strategies - that serve to turn down the dial on people's fear of death.   However, the great majority of 'believers' are privately tormented by thoughts that their religious beliefs might not be true or even the right one.   Bearing all this in mind what did we get in exchange for giving up our ignorance of death?   Some people will say that we got a sense of 'I' - a sense of being self-aware, a sense of our separation from others.   But have you ever watched a cat?   Cats are notoriously individualistic, cats do what they want when they want to, have you ever tried to herd a groups of cats?   Dogs are full of fun and energy because they are not thinking 'Whoa I better watch all this jumping about and playfulness.   I don't want to risk a heart attack or risk impairing my health in any way, just in case it causes me to die early.'

My mother has a very-well paid job, but it exhausts and stresses her greatly.   She is away from home 12 hours a day and goes to bed 1 hour after returning home.   She has money but not the time to enjoy it.  However, she dare not even consider switching to a job that she likes, one that would give her energy rather than take it away because she secretly fears death and she cannot tolerate the thought that she might miss out on all the good things in life, especially as 'you're a long time dead' as the saying goes.

Would you put up with half the things you do now if you had no idea that one day you would die?   Just think how liberating being free from all understanding of death would be?
I repeat my question:  Do you think that what you got in return for being painfully aware of death was worth it?





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Princess of Hearts

To put a transgender slant on this, we all know how painful the idea of spending the rest of our lives in our birth sex is.   However, many also fear being expelled forever from a 'good job' because of our condition.   Both of these fears have their root in our awareness that one day we will physically cease to exist.  Because we know that we have a finite time in this world we rush headlong into surgeries and pills because we cannot wait to be our subconscious sex publically because everyday that goes past takes us nearer the grave.  Having no awareness of death or its approach would take off the time pressure and we wouldn't need to rush through things. 
The fear of losing a good job or potentially being shut out of one for the rest of lives causes us to doubt our transgender status and most damagingly causes us to experience daily if not hourly cognitive dissonance.  That is wanting to transition but perhaps subtly not wanting to transition from fear of being expelled from the consumerist Garden-of Eden!



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Tesseract Allen

Do cat's have the ability to produce cars? Computers? How about a lever? The existance of the I isn't the only thing that we gain from knowledge. Inteligence, the fact we are inteligent enough to relize that we have only a short time on this planet to do the things we want comes hand in hand with the ability to produce amazing things.
Twitter: Transmogrofied
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Princess of Hearts

For every one good thing that science has produced there are many terrible things that science has brought into existence.    Technology weakens people.


Purity of Heart
When Tzu Kung went south to the Ch'u State on his way back to the Chin State, he passed through Han-yin. There he saw an old man engaged in making a ditch to connect his vegetable garden with a well. He had a pitcher in his hand, with which he was bringing up water and pouring it into the ditch, great labour with very little result. "If you had a machine here," cried Tzu Kung, "in a day you could irrigate a hundred times your present area. The labour required is trifling as compared with the work done. Would you like to have one?" "What is it?" asked the gardener. "It is a contrivance made of wood," replied Tzu Kung, "Heavy behind and light in front. It draws up water as you do with your hands but in a constantly flowing stream. It is called a well sweep." Thereupon the gardener flushed up and said, " I have heard from my teacher that those who have cunning implements are cunning in their dealings and that those who are cunning in their dealings have cunning in their hearts, and that those who have cunning in their hearts cannot be pure and incorrupt, and that those who are not pure and incorrupt are restless in spirit and not fit vehicles for TAO. It is not that I do not know of these things. I should be ashamed to use them."
Chuang Tzu
Chap 12
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Tesseract Allen

You make that argumentwhile using a device made from extreem advancement in science. If we never had any kind of intelectual advancement as well we couldn't even be having this descussion.
Twitter: Transmogrofied
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Taka

i myself think that the root of the problem is somewhat opposite of what you described. animals know death and are prepared for it to come at any moment, which is why they are able to live every moment in the exact way they want. it would be a waste not to.

humans on the other hand don't wish to acknowledge death, and delude themselves that things like medicine or magic may help them delay the unavoidable end. so they live their lives chasing a dream of security and immortality, thus making themselves unable to see the beautiful moment in time which is now, and the possibilities of happiness that are spread out on both sides of the road that they hasten along
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Princess of Hearts

Yes animals are aware of death, but they rarely think of it consciously or otherwise.   With humans it is always there in our minds just below the surface.   It is this nagging peripheral awareness that someday we will die perhaps tomorrow that in my opinion degrades our mind and body and spoils the journey.   Fear of death tends to cause us to become fearful, paralysed, and servile.

I actually believe that we are immortal spirits.  I don't however subscribe to the Judao-Christian concepts of heaven and hell.  However, what pains me is that I cannot know for certain that I am an immortal spirit until that time.   

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kate durcal

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 12, 2011, 05:41:51 PM
Question:  It was a terrible day when Homo Sapiens discovered that they were mortal and would one day die.   

Animals never know that they will die.  They don't even realise that they are aging.   An elderly eagle never realises that it has developed cataracts, and an ancient lion doesn't notice or care that its teeth are no longer in good condition.    I believe that knowing we will die is the root of all problems.   The knowledge that one day we won't be here terrifies us and makes incredibly fearful even if we don't realise this most of the time.    Capitalists and other money grubbers think 'hey I'm only going to go around once.  I better grab everything I want and more before I vanish into eternal night.   So f**k the planet and future generations!'.   Other people feel paralysed to varying degrees, and run about like headless chickens thinking to themselves 'I better put off all fun and enjoyment in the here and now and study like crazy so that I get a great job. A job that will let me lead a materially comfortable life where I can assuage my terrible fear of my inevitable death with a large house, fancy car, wine, and trips to expensive restaurants and holidays abroad.'   Those who don't like their jobs etc think 'hey at least this awful, squalid, low-paid job keeps me from the grave just a bit longer even if it sucks most of the joy out of my life.' 
Spiritual and philosophical people invent religions and philosophies - coping strategies - that serve to turn down the dial on people's fear of death.   However, the great majority of 'believers' are privately tormented by thoughts that their religious beliefs might not be true or even the right one.   Bearing all this in mind what did we get in exchange for giving up our ignorance of death?   Some people will say that we got a sense of 'I' - a sense of being self-aware, a sense of our separation from others.   But have you ever watched a cat?   Cats are notoriously individualistic, cats do what they want when they want to, have you ever tried to herd a groups of cats?   Dogs are full of fun and energy because they are not thinking 'Whoa I better watch all this jumping about and playfulness.   I don't want to risk a heart attack or risk impairing my health in any way, just in case it causes me to die early.'

My mother has a very-well paid job, but it exhausts and stresses her greatly.   She is away from home 12 hours a day and goes to bed 1 hour after returning home.   She has money but not the time to enjoy it.  However, she dare not even consider switching to a job that she likes, one that would give her energy rather than take it away because she secretly fears death and she cannot tolerate the thought that she might miss out on all the good things in life, especially as 'you're a long time dead' as the saying goes.

Would you put up with half the things you do now if you had no idea that one day you would die?   Just think how liberating being free from all understanding of death would be?
I repeat my question:  Do you think that what you got in return for being painfully aware of death was worth it?

First, I beg to differ. I have seen animal anticipate their deaths. You can see the same fear in their eyes as you can see in the eyes of dying humans. This is not just my opinion but the last 20 years have seen a number of studies that indeed indicate that animal and human have more in common than previously recognize. Animals have feelings, and can anticipate events and experiences, they are also capable of good and evil, etc

I do not mean to offend but while you opinion is widely share by many, it is not factual. But this is not the point of your thread, so I will say no more about.

The fact that I will day someday is not a frightful thing at all, not that I welcome it either. But again, I do not think that that is the point of your thread either.

Perhaps you may be alluding to the lost of bliss because we consume the fruit from the tree of knowledge?

Kate D
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 12, 2011, 05:41:51 PM
Animals never know that they will die.  They don't even realise that they are aging.   An elderly eagle never realises that it has developed cataracts, and an ancient lion doesn't notice or care that its teeth are no longer in good condition.   
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 12, 2011, 07:06:57 PM
Yes animals are aware of death, but they rarely think of it consciously or otherwise.   

I actually believe that we are immortal spirits.  I don't however subscribe to the Judao-Christian concepts of heaven and hell.  However, what pains me is that I cannot know for certain that I am an immortal spirit until that time.

I think you are making some very large assumptions here. How do you know what animals know or don't know? How do you know what they notice or care about? How do you know whether they think about something rarely or frequently?

Aside from that, what is so bad about dying? Why would you want to be an immortal spirit that drags through eternity never able to put an end to the weight of time weighing you down?

The whole concept of immortality makes no sense to me. How could we be any more infinite in time than we can be infinite in space?
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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FairyGirl

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 12, 2011, 05:41:51 PMMy mother has a very-well paid job, but it exhausts and stresses her greatly.   She is away from home 12 hours a day and goes to bed 1 hour after returning home.   She has money but not the time to enjoy it.  However, she dare not even consider switching to a job that she likes, one that would give her energy rather than take it away because she secretly fears death and she cannot tolerate the thought that she might miss out on all the good things in life, especially as 'you're a long time dead' as the saying goes.

Would you put up with half the things you do now if you had no idea that one day you would die?   Just think how liberating being free from all understanding of death would be?
I repeat my question:  Do you think that what you got in return for being painfully aware of death was worth it?
But I'm not painfully aware of death at all, I'm simply aware that it is a part of the cycle of life.  Besides I've already met Mr. Death, and he's not so scary.  I think more people are afraid of living than there are afraid of dying.  Before my transition I was already as good as dead.  But in my misery I took a chance at really living, and now life is a hundredfold more rewarding than I ever thought possible while I was still dead.

Quote from: The Sixth SenseCole Sear: I see dead people.
Malcolm Crowe: In your dreams?
[Cole shakes his head no]
Malcolm Crowe: While you're awake?
[Cole nods]
Malcolm Crowe: Dead people like, in graves? In coffins?
Cole Sear: Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're dead.
Malcolm Crowe: How often do you see them?
Cole Sear: All the time. They're everywhere.
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Anatta

Kia Ora Princess of H,

::) As Leonardo Da Vinci once wrote in his notebook "Just as a well spent day brings happy sleep, so a life well spent brings a happy death!"  :)
   

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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EmilyElizabeth

This sounds exactly like Rousseau's argument in "Discourse on the Origin and Foundations of Inequality among Men"


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Taka

Quote from: Lisbeth on June 12, 2011, 09:08:41 PM
I think you are making some very large assumptions here. How do you know what animals know or don't know? How do you know what they notice or care about? How do you know whether they think about something rarely or frequently?
i can't really say i know what animals care about, since it's hard to have conversations of the more philosophical kind with them. but i do know that they know about death, and understand that they are aging. if they didn't realize that much, there's be no reason why some hurt or old animals chose to leave and find a to them suitable place to die

Quote from: FairyGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:14:08 PM
I think more people are afraid of living than there are afraid of dying.
thinking about it, i'm afraid that may very well be the truth of the matter. i don't remember where i read that statement, so i can't quote, but,yeah, i read somewhere a character saying to another that when you can't find any other way out than death, that's when you should risk your life to change it to something better
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Cindy

We need to accept life and to accept death. Yes humans have built rituals and beliefs, and we will know how genuine they are when we die. I have my own beliefs and no doubt they will happen.

I think from our jobs Kate Durcal and I have sat by people during the process of death (apologies Kate if I'm stepping over the mark) very few people struggle with death. It tends to be a relief. It is the people who live and grieve who suffer. Not the dead, as far as I'm aware.

But we should accept life and live every day, push ourselves and help people who need help. Life is for living. Then we die.

Not sure if I have contributed

Cindy
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justmeinoz

Well as Jim Morrison sang, "No one here gets out alive."
It's all part of life's great travesty, so there's no point getting worked up about it.  Far better to consider whether you have had a meaningful and authentic life at the end. Which I would suggest is what we are here at Susan's Place for.
Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Cindy

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ativan

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 12, 2011, 05:41:51 PM
Question:  It was a terrible day when Homo Sapiens discovered that they were mortal and would one day die.   
It was a great day when I realized I was already dead.  It wasn't going to get any worse.
In fact, all it could do was get better.

You know when people say things could be worse? How stupid! of course! until you finally reach that person where it just can't get any worse.
That person is lucky, in a way, things can only get better.  How would you like it if things just couldn't get any better? Sucks, don't it.
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