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Question about RLT

Started by Miss Placed, September 27, 2005, 02:16:03 PM

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Cailyn

Quote from: Leigh on September 28, 2005, 11:07:32 PM

The ones that have nothing to lose by transition, they alreadty have what they reaped from male privelige.  Gave up nothing and gained the same.


This is the dumbest thing you've ever said.  How many people do you think this actually applies to and how many people do you think have "nothing to lose by transition"?  I don't care what your place in society is,  NO ONE goes through transition unscathed.  I know a number of people who despite great qualifications, lost plenty.  How many millionaires do you know of who've transitioned?  How many people do you know who survived the process intact?  Gave up nothing?  State ONE case you know of where a trans man or woman went through transition and gave up nothing. 

So you had it tough and you have a bad attitude, Leigh, so what?  Get over yourself.

Cailyn
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Leigh

Quote from: Cailyn on September 29, 2005, 07:46:53 PM
This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. How many people do you think this actually applies to and how many people do you think have "nothing to lose by transition"? I don't care what your place in society is, NO ONE goes through transition unscathed. I know a number of people who despite great qualifications, lost plenty. How many millionaires do you know of who've transitioned? How many people do you know who survived the process intact? Gave up nothing? State ONE case you know of where a trans man or woman went through transition and gave up nothing.

So you had it tough and you have a bad attitude, Leigh, so what? Get over yourself.

Cailyn

I didn't say how many now did I?

Keep the ole job, the house, all the boy toys, continue as always using what you gained living and working as a man.  You retain all the benefits accrued.  The debits are what?  A few snickers and a few less acquaintances, so what?  That happens to those who never transition.

Try starting all over again.  Attempt to do the same thing as a woman, competeing in the workplace for recodnition, acceptance and the rewards that joining the womans comminity brings.  There is a world of difference between bringing it with you and earning it!  That to me is transition.

I certainly have no problem with those who are sucessful enough to have the means ($$$$$) to finance their transition but please don't tell me how easy it was.  How easy it was to start transition just about the time they could collect their employee pension fund and have never worked a single day as a woman.

Bad attitude? Oh hell yea.  Especially when challenged.

Get over myself?  I much prefer to let the women I date and sleep with get over me.



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Cailyn

#22
Quote from: Leigh on September 29, 2005, 09:28:19 PM
I didn't say how many now did I?

Keep the ole job, the house, all the boy toys, continue as always using what you gained living and working as a man.  You retain all the benefits accrued.  The debits are what?  A few snickers and a few less acquaintances, so what?  That happens to those who never
transition.


You need to state a specific example, honey.  My knowledge is of professionals who were fired and denied positions and discriminated against because they were trans.  Their privilege ended so abruptly it was startling.  Not transitioning out of fear is one thing but transitioning in the face of such fundamental loss of job (and often house, wife, kids) requires great conviction and courage,  Fact is, you don't know anything about these people, the situations they face, and what transition does to their lives.  You are talking out of your anal shincter and making huge assumptions that are wrong.  A few transition without major upheaval in their lives but generally that is because they are very kind and compassionate people--people almost always respond welll to that--it has nothing to do with privilege.

A few snickers?  What planet are you on?  Try verbal threats and abuse or more often, being completely shut out. 

Quote from: Leigh on September 29, 2005, 09:28:19 PM

Try starting all over again.  Attempt to do the same thing as a woman, competeing in the workplace for recodnition, acceptance and the rewards that joining the womans comminity brings.  There is a world of difference between bringing it with you and earning it!  That to me is transition.


No, that's starting over like you said initially.  The problem with your statements are the gross generalizations you're making that all white guys are privileged and that all women are not.  Some women are born to privilege or gain it through hard work and some men are not--think short, fat, and balding for instance.  Some privilege iis predicated on appearance or age, not gender.  In reality, some white guys start out behind their attractive female counterparts.  The system still strongly favors men but determined women can now demand equality and usually get it.

Quote from: Leigh on September 29, 2005, 09:28:19 PM

I certainly have no problem with those who are sucessful enough to have the means ($$$$$) to finance their transition but please don't tell me how easy it was.  How easy it was to start transition just about the time they could collect their employee pension fund and have never worked a single day as a woman.


Don't you know the stats?  Most of us transition in our late 40s or early 50s well ahead of the pension fund.  A lot burn their pension fund to transition.  Do you have any idea what the job market looks like for middle-aged middle-class transsexuals?  What you don't know is that most professionals have to go through credentialing during the hiring process which outs them.  Big duh, Leigh, what do you think that looks like on a resume?  Thought so, you don't have any clue. 

Face it, this isn't your world you're talking about and you really don't know much about it. 

Cailyn
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Leigh

Cailyn

In july you wrote >> A year ago, I had no real plan to go full time, I didn't consider it an option.

So in one year you have become the fount of all knowledge?  Congratulations.

You are right!  The world of retained male privelige and power is something I have no knowlege of.

My knowlege of what has happened, and what does happen is first hand, not from reading and imaging what is real and what isn't.

You are maybe in transition a year?  I believe your last line applies to you!
Face it, this isn't your world you're talking about and you really don't know much about it.
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Kimberly

I shall be subtle.

Quote from: Susan on May 22, 2005, 10:02:28 PM...

14. You may challenge the issue, but never the person..

...

Get the hint?
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Cailyn

Quote from: Leigh on September 30, 2005, 09:12:45 AM
Cailyn

In july you wrote >> A year ago, I had no real plan to go full time, I didn't consider it an option.

So in one year you have become the fount of all knowledge?  Congratulations.

No one is the font of all knowledge though I have gone to great lengths to educate myself about trans issues and transition because I realized I had no choice but to go forward.  People discuss transition as a choice; it was never a choice for me so I've chosen to be well informed if nothing else.

Quote from: Leigh on September 30, 2005, 09:12:45 AM

You are right!  The world of retained male privelige and power is something I have no knowlege of.

Good.  That settled, stop dissing people because of whatever perceived advantage you think they have.  I do not come from a world of privilege--though I suspect you think I do--but I know people who have.  Transition wasn't easier for them, it wasn't a lark, and no one here  has the right to judge other transgender people based on some arbitrary concept like male privilege or socioeconomic standing.

Quote from: Leigh on September 30, 2005, 09:12:45 AM
My knowlege of what has happened, and what does happen is first hand, not from reading and imaging what is real and what isn't.

You are maybe in transition a year?  I believe your last line applies to you!
Face it, this isn't your world you're talking about and you really don't know much about it.

Uh, no, I've transitioned, Leigh.  The whole thing.  Full time everywhere.  My RLT is over in December and I have an appointment with Marci in January.  I'm living the life and so my knowledge is all first hand.  I'm a quick study.  My life is far from perfect but things are going okay, especially for a t-girl deep in GB country.  I also have connections across the community and facilitate two support groups.  I volunteer in the LGBT community.  I know what I'm talking about.

We all get there in our own ways.  If anyone makes an honest sincere meaningful transition, you ought to be applauding the fact that another one of us made it without killling themselves, without being killed, somehow keeping their sanity intact.  I apologize for any personal comments but I won't apologize for my anger at your dismissive attitude towards one part of our community.  It says you're a friend under your name; you don't sound like a friend.

Cailyn

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Sarah Louise

I guess I am not sure where this thread is going.  It seems to be getting a little personal and close to being an attack.

I could always be wrong, but I thought we were supposed to share ideas and opinions without getting personal.

Sarah
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Shelley

Well said Sarah I'm with you.

Shelley
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Terri-Gene

hmmmm, Retained Male Privialage.  Interesting subject in and of itself.  I've recently thought out just how much of that I have carried with me so long after I thought It was all gone.  Years later I am only beginning to earn privialage as a female, for myself, not that which I earned in male life which snuck into transitoin with me and me none the wiser I was carrying it around with me.

Yeah, I guess it does take a few or more years to get a real clue about things you know all about.  Thank you Leigh for keeping a focus on such things, The more I discover these things inside me and work them out, the happier I am in life and that much closer to truely being true to myself.  People like you make a lot of sense to myself and others to whom every day is a big step in life when you no longer own your home, have seen your income drop to less then half what it was and now not have much more money then it takes to keep a roof over and pay for the beans and the credit rating has been lost in the ozone, and the professional people who thought the world of you in past years don't want you in thier buildings anymore.  For those on the street I guess things simply look different then they do to those with security who have the $$$ and health  to just do what they want when they want, like FFS and SRS in the same year or so  rather then a dollar at a time  over a couple or more years. and wearing holes in your shoes before replacing them to save a few bucks, never going to movie theaters or having pizza or burgers, working two jobs for some etc. etc. etc.  and all the other little nicities of life just to be able to get there a little sooner. 

Nothing to complain about though, life can be tough sure, but you just have to scratch and claw to dig your way out instead of sitting in your overstuffed easy chair watching TV and Reading the latest new book on How To whatever.

Oh well, privialage or not, as long as you get what you wanted out of it right?  anywho, Thank you for being you and who you are Leigh, as for myself, I'll listen to anything you got time to say and consider myself outstandingly lucky to have heard it.  I know where you been and where you are and thats good enough for me above and beyond "other" opinions.

Terri
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Cailyn

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 02:19:21 AM
  For those on the street I guess things simply look different then they do to those with security who have the $$$ and health  to just do what they want when they want, like FFS and SRS in the same year or so  rather then a dollar at a time  over a couple or more years. and wearing holes in your shoes before replacing them to save a few bucks, never going to movie theaters or having pizza or burgers, working two jobs for some etc. etc. etc.  and all the other little nicities of life just to be able to get there a little sooner. 

Interesting assumption here that the person with the $$$ came into life with said $$$.  Some people who have $$$ did not get there by privilege but by the very means you describe: going without, working two to three jobs, etc.  So perhaps those people you describe who can do what they want can do so because of considerable sacrifice before they transitioned.  Assumptions can be ugly things and this thread seems to be about the "haves" vs the "have-nots" in the trans community.  From the sounds of it, we all started in the same place (figuratively speaking).

Cailyn
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Terri-Gene

QuoteInteresting assumption here that the person with the $$$ came into life with said $$$.  Some people who have $$$ did not get there by privilege but by the very means you describe:

Never said I had any problems with those who had done what they had to do to have the money before beginning transition.  More power to them, wish I had been able to develope and retain enough to get me by and see it all through.

Trouble is, like many others, I was relieved of more then enough money carrier potential when I simply could not work along those lines anymore and valued my sanity more then the money, then on a new scaled down job path, I came out in an area that wasn't exactly understanding of such things and found myself removed.  With the financial overhead I had, and an inability to find new work without identifying as male again, I went though all my savings, 401k, credit cards etc. until I went back to a very unlikely form of work.  Drywall, where they cared not what I looked like or behaved like, only my performance, which though I was by that time in my later 40's was still outstanding in an almost totally male occupation where around and usually before 35 the complaints would start about being to "old for this".

Drywallers generally work by necessity in teams, but I couldn't find anyone who would work with me because they didn't want to be associated with what I represented to them, so I took out the last of the money I had, bought a Panel Lift, or Three Toe Joe as they are commonly called to raise and hold sheets of drywall to the cieling so you can stand on a horse or climb a ladder to screw the sheets down and went to work with my new "partner" who could care less about me being "queer" and we made a living together, though it tended to cut, bruise, and callose me up as well as mess with my attitude.  I only did that for a little less then 3 years and with considerable help found and relocated to the job I have now, though I have to admitt to using a lot of male past and associations to obtain some of the information involved and assistance to get hired in the first place. Get my foot in the door so to speak, from there on, it was up to me.  It would have been so easy to simply change back to male identity and keep my nice coshy consultant job and just keep me inner self more private until I had the cash to get it all done quickly, but I found that once the decision was made, I couldn't pull back out, for any reason.

About the privialage?  As a male I found I was automatically accredited with having certain abilities which were not considered valid in females and as a female, I never would have attained the kind of trust and perceived compentcy I had achieved as male.  There are so very few females to be found in some of what I used to do, even at present.

Obtaining a job of responsibility at good wages in the first place as a woman, especially as a transsexual woman is hard enough in the first place, if not impossible given certain areas, and gaining recognition and respect in that job afterwards isn't a piece of cake either.  Doing so is the real RLT, when you are totally judged by what you are and can do on present status rather then anything you have done in a male capasity.   And there is a difference in transitions paid for by money aquired as male or with male mode pretentions as opposed to doing it with money aquired totally as female while having to legally cover up past life and establish new identity at less then the wages that could be earned with using male influence and at times impression or afilliation with the old male identity to ease through the rough parts.

And yes, it can easily come down to the "haves and have nots" when talking about taking a confirmable Full Time, no backsliding stand in life and having to find new work in a female identity and finance the transition as such as opposed to those who have built and aquired the means as male and when pressured, use male identification to obtain what they need and want.  It does kind of make for a very different mind set and greater sense of accomplishment for those who have had to make it from scratch as female rather then make it as a combination of male and female.

Having the money to transition on and a male built job or means of living before and during transition doesn't make one any less valid, it simply makes them different and not have the same view of life.  There are those who have to simply throw themselves into the fire without having any idea if they will actually be able to come out the other side or not and those who can start with full confidence in the knowledge that they will retain the comforts of life and will unquestionably, barring some extream catastrophy, obtain surgery.

If you haven't simply thrown yourself into the fire with no reasonable reason to have any security in the outcome, with only your own confidence in yourself and your conviction to let nothing stand in your way but time,  not knowing if you will be totally broken and trashed or achieve your goals, then you can have no idea of how some can feel about those who they perceive to have it easier because of male privialage influence, even if that Privialage was duly earned.

Wars fought by generals in the War Room are viewed in a slightly different context then the soldier in the field, sloshing through the mud and earning a few purple hearts on the way to the end, whatever that may be, though they both be soldiers.

Terri
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Cailyn

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 11:46:27 AM
Doing so is the real RLT, when you are totally judged by what you are and can do on present status rather then anything you have done in a male capasity.   And there is a difference in transitions paid for by money aquired as male or with male mode pretentions as opposed to doing it with money aquired totally as female while having to legally cover up past life and establish new identity at less then the wages that could be earned with using male influence and at times impression or afilliation with the old male identity to ease through the rough parts.

No, that is YOUR RLT, mine is my real RLT, and so on for everyone.  Once out, I could not fall back on or use any male influence ease myself through the rough parts.  EVERYONE I dealt with knew the truth, that I was a transsexual woman, not a guy or even a former guy once the story was out.  My career is not male-dominated (in fact there are more women than men in graduate school in my field).  The sole requirement for entry is a GPA above a certain level.  The admissions process is color and gender blind.  Maybe some transwomen have used their former male backgrounds to ease them through transition.  So what?  More power to them.  There is no purity test in transition; we all hope to do it as painlessly as possible.  I personally know not one person who breezed through this and didn't pay substantial costs (emotional, physical, financial) in the process.  This working class hero thing you and Leigh have going may make you both feel more pure, or valid, or accomplished but you miss the point.  Why aren't you both applauding ANYONE who gets through this alive?

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 11:46:27 AM

And yes, it can easily come down to the "haves and have nots" when talking about taking a confirmable Full Time, no backsliding stand in life and having to find new work in a female identity and finance the transition as such as opposed to those who have built and aquired the means as male and when pressured, use male identification to obtain what they need and want.  It does kind of make for a very different mind set and greater sense of accomplishment for those who have had to make it from scratch as female rather then make it as a combination of male and female.

The first part is a meaningless assumption.  Not all men succeed through privilege.  In certain fields yes, in others no.  Some men and women (there are more and more women who now have access to privilege) succeed inspite of their circumstances.  And why assume these people automatically backslide under pressure?  What if they did?  What gives you the right to judge them?

Accomplishment is a subjective value.  I am certain my sense of accompishment equals yours even though we got there by entirely different paths.

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 11:46:27 AM
Having the money to transition on and a male built job or means of living before and during transition doesn't make one any less valid, it simply makes them different and not have the same view of life. 

On this much we can agree.  We are all shaped by our pasts and circumstances and that renders each of us as unique.  In an ideal world, we listen and learn from the experience of others.  We share what we know.  Will we ever fully understand each other or the world view we have?  No, but we can try.  I started into this thread when one person dismissed a certain group and their transitions as meaningless fluff, something about a few friends lost, a few snickers...

Cailyn
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Terri-Gene

Cailyn, you seem to have become a very angry woman with a few bones to pick of your own since embarking on you own transition yourself.  Since you came out of the closet, you are very different then you were, it is highly evident in the way you posted then and the way you post now.

Yes, it does kind of change one doesn't it?. Anyway, I can't really understand why you are upset about male privialage views or as disturbed by leighs comments as you seem to be, and you reference myself also in allusion to many of my own posts, especially in the past.

You seem to realize that experiences are different for all and that those who come up hard will have a harder point of view, it is hard to avoid that relationship, but why so bitter about it?  As long as you are happy with yourself and your progress, what difference should it make to you how others view what transition is about other then to simply comment with your own views rather then take it so personal and make it so personal?

Ease up girl, you don't want to drive yourself nuts at the end of it.  And if it makes you feel any better, just remember that working class people have always had some resentful views of those more fortuneate, be it by luck or hard work themselves.  Its a natural thing, don't take any thing to heart that you don't feel applies to you.

You seem to focus on things you feel are personally derogitory and miss the general points being made,  repeat .... general points.

Terri
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Cassandra

Wow! Just got threw reading the last five posts. First I'd like to compliment both of you Cailyn And Teri for some very thought provoking opinions. I never really thought about the level of male priviledge I might be carrying around as extra baggage. I have been so intent on making my new life as the woman I've always been I never considered the male influence that might still be hanging around my neck.

Cailyn, You provide another valuable aspect to this thread. The different perspective from someone in a professional position were being Trans or not isn't as great a factor, but it is still a factor and certainly shares some aspects with working class Trans, but not nearly to the extent that working class has to put up with. So there you have it. It's the people you have to put up with and in the working class they are not so quick to accept. They may give some lip service but still Teri could not get a work partner. Reality is reality and yes everyones is different. I do not doubt that the same level of I really don't want to work with that person exists in the professional world as in the "working class" but in the professional world they don't have much of a choice. In the working class world it is very much possible to say "Oh I don't have a problem with so and so but I'm not working with that freak.

Another factor is that in the professional world it is much harder to find someone who really knows what they are doing and so the willingness to accept is greater. In the working class world, well, you can always find another painter or drywaller or trash collector. I do believe that for the working class Trans it is a much tougher roe to hoe. I am not saying however that it is easy for the professional.

Both views are valid and I don't think we need to devolve into personal confrontations about my transition is harder than yours. It is difficult for all of us just in varying degrees. Cudos to those who have an easier time for whatever reason. I'm happy for them. I'd be happier if I were there already but I'm not and the struggle and the sacrifices continue.

Just my two cents,

Cassie
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stephanie_craxford

I think that this thread has lost it's meaning.  Now it's all about the class system, which is better, who has the harder time, who has the easiest time, who is privileged, who is not, and so on.  It's odd that no one has mentioned the "poor".

To reduce trans issues to one of class and male privtlege is redundant, for who really cares.  Yes those with money can always afford what ever, but everyone faces the same emotional issues, and we deal with those in our own ways, with or without privilege.  Yes there are those who have had a rough time, and those who have had an easy time, but no matter whether you are lower, middle, upper class, or white collar, or blue collar, red neck, royalty or serfs, rich and famous, poor and downtrodden, we are all trans.  And no matter what,  if you are not mentally able to face the issues encountered along the journey then we all face the equal opportunity of failure, misery, and heart ache.  The loss of a loved one, or close friend, because you are trans will effect everyone to one degree or another, no matter who you are, or your personal situation.  Some are able to deal with that some are not.

Even after transition, we will still face the same class, male prevelidge structure etc..., whether MtF or FtM, I just hope I get though my transition in one piece, and be able to live the remainder of my life the way it was meant to be.

Just my thoughts,

Steph.
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Kimberly

... and that I think is a fitting end to this thread.
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