Question about RLT

[Miss Placed]

Ok, I apologise now if this quiestion is naive or just plain dumb, but it just popped into my head whilst I was cooking dinner, and I am interested on views and opinions.

I know many bio-women who do not care to dress effeminately, who prefer instead to wear jeans and t's all the time.

I know a few that openly detest skirts and dresses, often saying their legs are not up to it, or they dont like the look.

All these women are straight (as far as I know  ), are not TG's, have male partners, some are married and have kids.

In all cases they are Women, full stop.


Soooo why do transgender women HAVE to go through RLT and dress like a woman for a certain amount of time, before doctors will put them forward for HRT?

Why do transgender women have put to put themselves in a position they may not like, wear clothes they may not feel comfortable in, when many bio-women do not have to?

It seems like descrimination?



I said it might be a naive or dumb question 

[Miss Placed]

As usual I have posted and then realised that I left most of my post in my head!

Not editing my original one, as I can see some people have already read it.


I guess what I was driving at in the original post is...

Why do we have to dress like a woman, to be the woman we know we are, especially when many bio-women don't dress like women anyway?

Yet to get HRT and SRS you have to prove to other people that you are who you want to be, but surely its YOUR own opinion that counts, no one elses?

Why is up to Drs and Councellors to decide for you that you are worthy of being the woman that you know you are?


I'm sorry, I guess I have taken in so much info over the last couple of weeks, that I am now mentally throwing up, and alas there isnt anywhere else for me to do it 

If anyone wants to talk about this 1-on-1 my MSN Messenger is missplaceduk@gmail.com

[Sarah Louise]

I agree, the gate keepers can be a pain.  Although I do like skirts and dresses and have no problem wearing them (the only time I wear pants is when I have to crawl around in an attic or crawlspace or under a clients desk, and no, I am not playing under that desk, just fixing computer cabling problems).  It is funny that women can wear "men's" clothes anytime the want.

I used to tease my spouse about that all the time, she never saw the correlation.  She wears a skirt or dress about once a month or so.  Oh well, I guess that is life.

Sarah

[Dennis]

I don't know if you necessarily have to wear clothes that are traditionally feminine. I think the important point is that you are presenting as female for RLT.

The latter may indicate in someone who looks somewhat ambiguous that more feminine clothing might make it easier.

Depends on your care providers I guess.

Dennis

[stephanie_craxford]

Hey there.

Yet to get HRT and SRS you have to prove to other people that you are who you want to be, but surely its YOUR own opinion that counts, no one elses?

Why is up to Drs and Councellors to decide for you that you are worthy of being the woman that you know you are?

I know how you feel.  You are echoing how I felt and still feel to a large degree.   Here in Ontario we have what was called the Clarke Institute, the ultimate Gate Keepers.  My first dr referred me to them for counseling and therapy when I came out to her a while back.  It is quite a process they put you through.  First you have to fill out a ridiculous questionnaire and mail it to them, then they contact you with a appointment to go before their panel.  The panel consists of you first meeting with a medical dr who is an "expert in the trans field, then you go before three wise men/women (pshrinks) and you have to suffer under their questions.  The next day you go through almost the same thing.   based on this they make their decision and mail it back to you in about 4 weeks.  You are either a woman or a man.  Easy huh!. 

But the truth is that while you may be sure that you know who and what you are, there are many who have gone before and mistakes have been made.  Surgeons have to be sure that they are doing the right thing to the right person for the right reasons.  It's true you are the one paying the cash, but who will pay if mistakes are made, and there have been mistakes.

I hate the thought of having to apply to the powers that be for the job of "Woman" with papers in hand, but the final results are worth it, don't you think.

Chat later,

Steph

[Thundra]

Ooooooooo, I hope you are not using your real name!

They do not want people to know what you said!  Who do you think you are to think for yourself?  Who do you think you are that you can see for yourself what women are really like!?

Don't you know that this is not part of the program!

Why, where would all the mental health professionals be if the average person were simply allowed to spend their own money as they see fit, and modify their body any way they want?

Anarchy I say, anarchy!!!

Why before you know it, all of the gender identity centers would run out of money (and there is a LOT of it), and a bunch of over-educated folx would be out of a job.

And with little to no therapy to pay for, and saving all of their money that they would have blown on tons of clothing and make-up and whatnot they did not really want anyways, a continuous stream of peeps would be lining up at the surgeons with plenty of money to spare!

Geez, we cannot have that, now can we?

[AllisonY2K]

From my understanding and talking with my therapist periodically, you just have to live as a woman and present as a woman. Now think about the myriad of choices you have with that. You don't have to choose the most stereotypical way to look female, nor do you have to dress how you think women should dress. You just have to look, act, and present as female. If you don't want to wear a skirt or dress..DON'T! I wear a skirt maybe once a week if that. Any other time I am in jeans. No one I know wears skirts or dresses all the time and they're all accepted as women.

My only suggestion is to not try too hard to blend in or be accepted as a woman. Just...let it happen. I feel that if you try too hard then you'll just stand out that much more. You've got women wearing power suits, you've got women wearing mumu's and flip-flops. All you have to do is fit in somewhere between those two.

[Leigh]

  And with little to no therapy to pay for, and saving all of their money that they would have blown on tons of clothing and make-up and whatnot they did not really want anyways, a continuous stream of peeps would be lining up at the surgeons with plenty of money to spare!

If therapy and RLT were not a requirement I can just see the headlines.

XTRA XTRA read all about it.

53rd doctor sued for malpractice by disgruntled man over sex change surgery.  Mr. XZY asserts that he was temperorarily delusional when he asked for surgery.  His lawyer is sueing on the gorunds that the Dr. should have asked for a reference.  After the other losing 52 cases of malpractice the AMA  has declared that sex reassignment surgery is not to be preformed upon penalty of censure by them, up to and including revocation of hospital priveliges.

I have no doubt if it was changed to upon demand there would be a ine up the next morning that rivaled the super bowl ticket line. 

Therapy and RLT is intended to weed out the wanna bes, deluded, fantasy players, stupid idiotic people that think getting a vagina is an instant ticket to being a woman.  You have better chances of winning the lottery.  How many broken homes, suicides, mental comitments do you think therapy and RLT have stopped?  If you can't get through therapy and RLT you sure as hell are not going to make it in the real world peeps.  There ain't nothing fun, glamorous or exciting about it.

All an open door policy would do is shut down the Dr's and deny those of us who truly needed it the means to get what we need.  If the Dr's were not put out of business then I would say go for it.  You are all big kids and could make up your own mind, but don't start crying to me about making a big mistake.  You bought in to this hand now play it out.

[Dennis]

I agree with you Leigh. If it were not legally possible to sue over your own stupid mistake and regrets, then yeah, have at 'er. Unfortunately it would tie doctors and care providers up in lawsuits over that crap.

I really wish the law would require people to take responsibility for their own actions to a greater extent.

Dennis

[Miss Placed]

Thank you all for you informative and thought provoking replies.

I think I have found the UK equivalent of the Canadian Clarke Institute, it seems to be the rather starkley named The Gender Recognition Panel, a UK Govt body.

Interestingly their site states "some applicants may be eligible to obtain a new birth certificate". I seem to remember reading somewhere on these forums that is something you are not entitled too in the US/Canada?

Leigh's comments....

Therapy and RLT is intended to weed out the wanna bes, deluded, fantasy players, stupid idiotic people that think getting a vagina is an instant ticket to being a woman.  You have better chances of winning the lottery.

Made me sit quietly for long time, hard words, but words that need to hard, and they certainly provided me with some contemplation material.

After a while I went back through my Mum's E-Bay stock and finally found something my size, a long dark green skirt.

I put it on, and wore it around the house for sometime, sat at my PC, did some tidying up, watched some TV.

It was a very enlightning and moving experience. I am glad to say that it didnt do anything at all for me sexually (ie it didnt turn me on, nor did I find it erotic), but I did feel this warm comfortable glow within, I was very happy, I felt very natural.

I would have liked to carry on wearing it, but I was frightened I might mark or damage it.

I have a Doctors appointment booked for next Tuesday in which I hope to get a 'referral' from him to see a counsellor.

I aim to finally finish my proper introduction post to you all today or tomorrow, and I have now decided that at that time I renaming 'Miss Placed' to a real female name. 

[Terri-Gene]

why do transgender women HAVE to go through RLT and dress like a woman for a certain amount of time, before doctors will put them forward for HRT?

hmmm, no idea about Uk or whatever, but here in the USA it's not like that at all, in many cases, HRT preceeds RLT, often up untill development is quite evident.  The manner of dress isn't nearly as important as the commitment and identification.

HRT isn't a comfirmation of a solid belief that one is transsexual, rather it is most often used as a diagnostic tool to see if HRT improves or detracts from the desire to actually fully transition.

RLT is in no way a test of real womanhood in the beginning, as for most, thier male birth is all to evident, both physically and in mental attitude.  It is not until one is unconditionally recognized and treated as a genetic woman that one actually begins to learn and understand the full consiquences of what being a woman really is, totally aside from transsexual aspects.

Some may find at around this point that its not all the fun and glamor they thought it would be and miss the privialage they had and indeed expected as men, and may change thier minds about making the full trip.  This is the real purpose of RLT, to give one a chance to actually experience some of what they are getting into before making a final step that can't be reversed to the extend of what they gave up.  Kind of a try it before you buy it concept and considering the seriousness of whats involved, quite right and proper.

Some may feel they don't need to meet an RLT requirement, but even they could learn a lot about themselves and the world by going through it.

Terri

[Thundra]

Oh Leigh,

You know that we are have to agree to dis-agree on this one.

My bent on this issue is, and always has been, that if it is strictly my money being spent, then no one, medical professional or not, should have the right to determine my or anyone else's course of action, regardless of the outcome.

If the medical insurance people are not going to pay for the treatment, than as far as I am concerned, the medical folx have no right to force anyone to even consult a therapist. caveat emptor.

They DO have the right to make a potential client sign a waiver against the outcome though.

If, as you put it, some guy rushed to get surgery, and later regretted it, I do not care.  As far as I am concerned, that is just one less penis in the world, and we are all better off for it.

Personally, I do not feel that the current SOC do anything to winnow out potential trouble spots from those queing up in line at the surgeon.  It has been my observation, that rather, the current SOC turn away and deny the youngest and most vulnerable candidates, and pushes thru those with the greatest income.

Which is ironic, because the system as it stands rewards those most capable of being financially successful at living in the male role, and punishes the youngest and least trained, and least successful at living in the male role.  But what the hey, no surprise there?  The system was set up by men, for men, and their exaggerated sense of female beauty.

I know that is not a popular viewpoint, but I have been around for a while, and I have seen damn near everything.

[Sheila]

When I went in for my orchiectomy 3 yrs ago, the doctor ask me why I wasn't wearing a skirt to the interview. I told him that I do wear them every once in a while but like to wear jeans and a nice top. It was a very fem. top and the shoes, heels, to match. I told him I was off today and don't like to wear things like that unless I was going out. I also mentioned to him that in his office there wasn't one woman in there who had a skirt on or a dress, they all wore pants and some with the ugliest shoes you would ever see, but they were comfortable. I gave him my letters and he performed the surgery. Since then I have had full SRS and I'm very happy with it also. Everyone takes me for a female now. Even in my jeans and t's. You have to mow the lawn sometime and you wouldn't do it in heels and nylons. How about tennis shoes?
Sheila

[Leigh]

My bent on this issue is, and always has been, that if it is strictly my money being spent, then no one, medical professional or not, should have the right to determine my or anyone else's course of action, regardless of the outcome.

In my post I said>>> You are all big kids and could make up your own mind, but don't start crying to me about making a big mistake.  You bought in to this hand now play it out.

If, as you put it, some guy rushed to get surgery, and later regretted it, I do not care.  As far as I am concerned, that is just one less penis in the world, and we are all better off for it.

One down and 3 billion to go.    My concern though is that with enough dysfunctional people getting surgery eventually there would be none available to those who actually need it.

It has been my observation, that rather, the current SOC turn away and deny the youngest and most vulnerable candidates, and pushes thru those with the greatest income.

The ones that have nothing to lose by transition, they alreadty have what they reaped from male privelige.  Gave up nothing and gained the same.

I have no solution for the young peeps.  Without supporting paperwork what are their options for getting (equal?) rights in the workplace?  Its difficult enough for those who do have a skill set to remain on their job or find another.  I know some are lucky, several come to mind immediately.  I also know more than several who used transition as a disability to explain the inability to work or function in society..  There is a huge difference between living and functioning isn't there?

Do we disagree, not very much I think!

[Dennis]

About the birth certificate issue:

In the UK, it has only been possible to amend your birth certificate since January 2005. The criteria are that you have to have been living as your new gender for at least two years. There may be other criteria. Britain was extremely resistant to this and had to be taken to an international human rights tribunal to be forced to do it. The reason for this resistance stems from the reasons for judgment in a 1935 (or thereabouts) case from the House of Lords called Corbett v. Corbett. Find it and read it if you ever want to be thoroughly depressed by ignorance. Nonetheless, the UK used it as an excuse not to allow birth certificate amendments up until they were forced to change. The case basically says you are whatever gender you are assigned at birth and you remain that gender regardless of subsequent circumstances.

In Canada, it is possible to change your birth certificate. The requirements vary province to province.

Some states in the US do not allow birth certificate changes. Most do. Again, the requirements vary state to state.

The situation in the UK means that there is a huge backlog of applicants who have been living as their new gender for 20+ years. Those of us who are fairly newly transitioned are a lower priority and are gonna have to wait. I'm hoping that by the time my 2 years has elapsed, the backlog will be reduced somewhat. Nonetheless, it's expensive and it's an application that has to be vetted by a board, so it's still not a particularly easy application to make.

Dennis

[Leigh]

Every state allows a name change.  Currently two will not allow a gender marker change.

The only reason the UK is doing anything is due to pressure from the EU.

[Dennis]

Oh yeah, I should've clarified. I was talking about changing gender on your birth certificate only, not names.

Dennis

[Sarah Louise]

I know that Ohio is one state that will NOT allow you to change the gender marker on your birth certificate.  They will change the birth name, but not the gender.  Mine says Sarah Louise R. MALE, ugh.

oh well.

Sarah

[Leigh]

Idaho is the other state.

No state will allow a gender marker change without supporting documents from a surgeon stating that surgery has taken place.

[Sarah Louise]

Now, what can we do to get Idaho and Ohio to agree to changing the Gender marker "after surgery"?  I don't see any forward progress being made in this area.

I realize you don't show your birth certificate often, but it is frustrating not being able to change it.

Sarah