Original Sin

[Omika]

"Original Sin", by Angtoria (commentary by me on the lyrics of one of my favorite bands)

Everything happens for a reason (Fear God, for his will is absolute.  You are powerless.)
Everything you love turns to dust (All things you love in this life beyond God are meaningless compared to his acceptance.)
Everything you touch yearns for poison (Your intimacy is rooted in sin; the very action itself is corrupt)
Your eyes lust too much (Even thoughts of the action are corrupt, and must be mentally purged.)

I tried so hard to control my mind (to restrain my humanity, my desires)
To remain true to you (to lie to myself, to make the unworkable work)
Thrashing the walls of innocence inside (Believing that no one is innocent, including the self)
But no desire to restrain myself (Blind belief in this)
I hate to love but love to hate   (The ultimate perversion of Original Sin; the justification of abhorrent, aggressive behavior.  It is our "nature" to fight all means of true self expression and become perfect wedding cake figurines.))

What did I do to deserve all this from you?   (Why would you create such a horrid concept?)
I can't believe you turned us into this!  (A pack of self-hating, self-depreciating fools)
It's far from beauty and the beast, our saga ends (This goes beyond good & evil, it is the path to destruction)
Disgust! I trust you will burn in hell!

Acquiescence, my gift to you (I submit to the will of God)
But on my knees, I'll never do
Take your path hand in hand
Like a fool, I follow you
Bleak I seem, now to you
Within your eyes, I am nothing new
Your heinous crime, watch my decline
Your vicious lips revolt me

What did I do to deserve all this from you?
I can't believe you turned us into this
It's far from beauty and the beast, our saga ends
Disgust! I trust you will burn in hell!

Some of my favorite lyrics, really.  I've always found the concept of original sin to be one of the biggest opponents to human progress ever devised.  It disgusts me.

The song is also really awesome.  If you don't mind goth metal, I suggest looking it up.

~ Blair

[Kimberly]

That is just sad, or rather makes me sad. You know, I cannot comprehend trying to "win god's acceptance." That is like, seriously a very strange and perverted concept to me. As for "Sin" ^*shrug* Yeah well, that one confused me rather a lot too, lol.

What is 'goth metal'? I do not think I am familiar with that.

[tinkerbell]

   Wow!  very sad indeed.  Thank you for posting this song, Blair.  Sometimes, we, humans, try to make sense of things; we tend to search for the reasons why we are this way or why we behave that way.  Some things are simply unexplainable and the best way to approach this, IMO, is by accepting them without wasting our neurons trying to figure out the "why" of things.  My two cents.

tink

[HelenW]

I've always found the concept of original sin to be one of the biggest opponents to human progress ever devised.  It disgusts me.

The concept of original sin is one of the biggest reasons I cannot embrace Christianity.  To think that we are born "outside of God's grace" and are thus defiled creatures is completely anathema to my point of view.  I think we are perfect from the start and just have a lot of garbage in the way of manifesting it.

hugs & smiles
helen

[Dara Marie]

I think there is sin.  Maybe two kinds.  There are people so evil and hateful that what they do must be a "sin."  But there are also sins because we are weak and imperfect  - coming from "original sin" ??  - there is this  kind of sin so that we have a standard by which to better ourselves, IMHO.  I believe in God, but not that God is just putting arbitrary burdens on us, but is drawing us to the better

[Suzy]

Well, to me the doctrine of original sin is good news.  In its purest form it simply says that all of us are born needing a relationship with our creator.  And it is always coupled with the idea that this is available.  We do not have to somehow leverage God's pleaseure with us.  We already have it.  That's what's behind Original Sin.  I respectfully disagree that we are all born perfect.  Having raised two children, I assure you I did not have to teach them to sin.  They did a great job all on their own.  I am sure I was the same way.  Intimacy is not sin.  Rather, our lack of being able to be truly intimate with others and with God is what sin is all about.  My opinion.

Peace,
Kristi

[Dryad]

Sin: Viewing another living being as an object.

Because objects, you can use.

The origional sin, the Fig of Eden, was actually what made us able to do good. Because suddenly, we could see good from evil. Suddenly we could see the other person. A being without a brain cannot think, and does not see good from evil; it merely survives. At the cost of others; it doesn't care about the rest of it's species; about it's family. About nothing. But when we ate the fig, we could care. Because we could see more than just survival; we could see eachother.

The Origional Sin was a good thing.

[Attis]

The only original sin was when the first [hu]Man decided to sacrifice the life for his/her ideal(s).

-- Brede

[rhonda13000]

Some of my favorite lyrics, really.  I've always found the concept of original sin to be one of the biggest opponents to human progress ever devised.  It disgusts me.

A ghastly doctrine with horrid implications, it is in fact unScriptural.

It is a product of the fertile and all too frequently perverse imaginings of mankind.

You're a fascinating woman, Blair. Intriguing.

[Omika]

Well, to me the doctrine of original sin is good news.  In its purest form it simply says that all of us are born needing a relationship with our creator.  And it is always coupled with the idea that this is available.  We do not have to somehow leverage God's pleaseure with us.  We already have it.  That's what's behind Original Sin.  I respectfully disagree that we are all born perfect.  Having raised two children, I assure you I did not have to teach them to sin.  They did a great job all on their own.  I am sure I was the same way.  Intimacy is not sin.  Rather, our lack of being able to be truly intimate with others and with God is what sin is all about.  My opinion.

Peace,
Kristi

No child is born with any instincts beyond basic self-preservation.  It is the duty of the parent to teach the child how to maintain themselves without harming others.  In a sense, survival tact.

To many Christians, Original Sin simply means one thing: "Human beings are lying, stealing, cheating, nasty creatures by nature."  That particular belief is what I believe concerns these lyrics.  That particular belief is what I believe completely prevents any meaningful human progress.  Take it onto an individual scale: I believe firmly that I am a bad person by nature.  Am I going to believe that I will ever have any chance of true satisfaction or fulfillment with my life?  No, not really.  Because at my core, I will always be bad.  I may strive to be better, but I will always "know" that I'm nasty by nature.

Now, the opposite way of thinking.  I believe that I am a good person by nature, but that I'm simply inexperienced or tempered by a negative environment.  Will I keep trying to uncover that good person I know myself to be beneath it all?  Of course, because there's light at the end of the tunnel.  I'm inspired and motivated towards self-discovery.

What mankind needs right now is a shift in thinking from one of these to the other.  Rather than try to cover up a piece of coal with shiny lights and decorations, we should be striving to clean the grime off of a diamond.

How can this not make sense?

What is 'goth metal'? I do not think I am familiar with that.

Goth metal is also known as symphonic metal.  Too often people associate Gothic style with darkness and "Mansonesque" freakiness.  That's actually not usually the case.  While there are several sub-genres of the Gothic spectrum, Goth, most often, leans towards a means of self-expression more along the lines of baroque, dramatic, and sometimes macabre.

So, Goth metal (or symphonic metal) is generally any metal that features operatic vocalization, heavy use of orchestral elements, and just carries a generally rich, full-bodied, dramatic delivery.  Good examples of Gothic metal bands are Within Temptation, Nightwish, Angtoria, Epica, and Leaves' Eyes.

~ Blair

[Kimberly]

What mankind needs right now is a shift in thinking from one of these to the other.  Rather than try to cover up a piece of coal with shiny lights and decorations, we should be striving to clean the grime off of a diamond.

Oh, I think that one is coming all right.

Personally to me it is quite obvious that humanity is at it's core a good thing.
Heh, just as well.

So, Goth metal (or symphonic metal) is generally any metal that features operatic vocalization, heavy use of orchestral elements, and just carries a generally rich, full-bodied, dramatic delivery.  Good examples of Gothic metal bands are Within Temptation, Nightwish, Angtoria, Epica, and Leaves' Eyes.

Ooh! THANK YOU Blair! I adore the majority of what Nightwish has released... more names, neato!



^*curtsey*

[rhonda13000]

Well, to me the doctrine of original sin is good news.  In its purest form it simply says that all of us are born needing a relationship with our creator.  And it is always coupled with the idea that this is available.  We do not have to somehow leverage God's pleaseure with us.  We already have it.  That's what's behind Original Sin.  I respectfully disagree that we are all born perfect.  Having raised two children, I assure you I did not have to teach them to sin.  They did a great job all on their own.  I am sure I was the same way.  Intimacy is not sin.  Rather, our lack of being able to be truly intimate with others and with God is what sin is all about.  My opinion.

Peace,
Kristi

You're pretty cool Kristi, but I cannot concur with that notion.

It has been a while, as I had renounced catholicism many a year ago, but this doctrine in its essence states that the entirety of mankind bears the sin of an act of disobedience which was executed at the dawn of time.

I believe that an ancillary doctrine of this suggests that mankind is innately 'evil' and is more or less programmed to sin, by nature.

Both of these notions are unScriptural; unScriptural and intuitively repulsive. These were not authored by God and if they were, one is worse than a fool to follow and have faith in God.

I understand the essence or what you are suggesting and that has merit, but the doctrine itself is untenable.

[Tiffany Elise]

When I think of the original sin I see a sin that is all around today as was in the beginning. It's not drugs, sex, or stealing. Those seen ones need not be mentioned.

John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

  The original sin I see is that Adam and Eve did not believe God. They neither believed that what God said was true nor that they need to be in subjection to him.
  They manifested their unbelief in doing that which they were told not to do and in believing a lie. The quest to be "like gods" showed far more than just rebellion to the words God spoke.
  That unbelief is also the sin that children are born in. No child comes out of the womb knowing Jesus Christ and believing in him.
  Unfortunately, today many shall believe in a strong delusion and sin in this manner as well.
  But, that's just my opinion.
  Tiff
 

[Dryad]

Within Temptation, Nightwish, Angtoria, Epica, and Leaves' Eyes.

Actually, that's power metal.  >
But I have to agree with you on all the rest, Blair!

Oh, and Tiff: A sin is an action. Not to know isn't an action. You've done nothing wrong, you've thought nothing wrong; you're as pure as a child when you're just born. (Note the 'Pure as a Child' bitty; was one of Jesus' favorites.)
Many people have never heard of Jesus of Nazereth. Nobody had ever heard of the man before he was born. Jesus cannot logically be the only way to solve sin, because he hasn't allways been there. To be frank; Christianity is awfully young, and before Jesus died, or even: before those fifty-or-so years after Jesus died, there wasn't some such thing as Christianity.
Sin is about morals. And though a religion is a good way to show morals in practice, so people can learn, it is not the place of a religion to create said morals.

[Omika]

Within Temptation, Nightwish, Angtoria, Epica, and Leaves' Eyes.

Actually, that's power metal.  >

Oh no!  Are you going to play metal semantics with me?  Really, don't, it's not a good idea.

If you want to call it power metal, fine, it fits.  Like I said, Goth (symphonic) metal is about dramatic, orchestral, powerful delivery.  Do you not like the word Goth?

~ Blair

Ooh! THANK YOU Blair! I adore the majority of what Nightwish has released... more names, neato!



^*curtsey*

Of that list, Angtoria is my particular favorite.  They've only released one album (last year) called "God Has a Plan for Us All".  They skirt the line between goth and death metal, which is what I like about them.  They have a few pretty heavy songs.  If you really like Nightwish, you will love Leaves' Eyes.  Definitely check them out. Within Temptation is often compared to a vastly inferior Evanescence (I really can't stand Evanescence), but the difference lies in lyrical content, orchstration and a far less nasally sounding female vocalist.  Epica is alright, they're not my favorite, but they have a few great songs, and are a pretty standard symphonic metal band.

~ Blair

[Tiffany Elise]

Dryad;
  I respect your opinion of the child but the Lord said we must come in faith as a child, or as a "babe in Christ." The Lord did not say that all children are saved, pure or sinless.
  While there are scriptures that say that every man must answer for his own sins and that the fathers shall not answer for the sins of the children, it also says train up a child in the way that he shall go and when he is old he shall not depart from it. There are also those scriptures that speak of generational curses that parents can bring on their children. Those are the ones that seem to not go over well in an era of I'm OK, you're OK Christianity.
  Paul even wrote that the vessels should not question the potter and spoke of Esau being hated of God  before he could either do good or evil.
  There are also references to "cursed children" in the new testament as well.
  Personally, on a site where there are people that read these posts and may be contemplating suicide I won't go into that nor even continue with this one.
  I respect your view but continue to believe as I do.
  Tiff

[Dryad]

Believe as you like. I'm just here to hold up a mirror. That's my life's calling, and that is what I cling to.
Like when Paul(us) says a slave should obey his master, and not revolt, because the slave will be saved after his death.. That's just plain profit from religion, now isn't it? The mere fact that Jesus loved women as much as he did men, and saw no difference in their value did not stop Paulus from telling women to wear scarf to cover their hair, and to be loyal to their husbands and fathers, to serve their men, and to hold to the roman and greek laws that said women couldn't even own anything.
With Paulus, the Christian Dogma began. You can't blame me for believing Paulus destroyed Christianity. So I don't take him very seriously, either. The dogma he created, the rules and binding regulations, go against everything Jesus taught and acted. Jesus set the people free from overruling dogma.
As for generational curses: Ever thought of AIDS, Leprosy, and any hereditary disease that can be obtained from an outer source and carried on to your offspring?

Now, Blair; as for Gothic music: I actually listen to a lot of gothic music! Also a lot of symphonic power metal, by the way. For Gothic music, look at bands like: Blutengel, Nik Page, Autumn Tears, Mandragora Scream, Cruxshadows, wumpscut, Type O Negative and on goes the list. (Some of these bands are cyber-goth, some gothic industrial, some gothic doom.. But most are cross-overs of one another.)
An important note is that symphonic power metal, and symphonic rock, are really popular with the gothic crowd.

[Omika]

Now, Blair; as for Gothic music: I actually listen to a lot of gothic music! Also a lot of symphonic power metal, by the way. For Gothic music, look at bands like: Blutengel, Nik Page, Autumn Tears, Mandragora Scream, Cruxshadows, wumpscut, Type O Negative and on goes the list. (Some of these bands are cyber-goth, some gothic industrial, some gothic doom.. But most are cross-overs of one another.)
An important note is that symphonic power metal, and symphonic rock, are really popular with the gothic crowd.

Which is why it is also called Goth metal.  I didn't say Gothic music once, did I?

~ Blair

[Dryad]

True.

[Cindi Jones]

Original sin and Goth music.  Now that is a powerful combination!  Good thread.

Cindi