License and IDs

[four_est]

(TL;DR version at the bottom if you don't want to read my incoherent rambling!)

I've been bouncing back and forth between the idea of being FtM or Androgyne for a while now. One might think I'm a transMAN because I identify as male but that's honestly because I like things simple. I don't like labels and don't feel the need to give myself one be it for my gender or sexuality. Maybe because I'm lazy, not really sure.

The problem is, I see myself as male. As in, my sex is (or to better explain it, I should be a cis-) male. My gender probably IS androgyne or gender queer, or fluid not entirely sure which because I haven't given it much thought. I enjoy going from presenting as male to female to androgynous and am fairly content with people giving me odd looks or calling me miss, or kid, or "umm..." but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like people to still know that I'm male. Does that make any sense? Like... I don't care if strangers have to guess I just wish my friends knew me as an androgynous guy. For example, my friend refers to me as a guy almost all the time, naked, in public, last night while I made him dinner in boxers and 6" heels (gotta break those babies in for a wedding this weekend! ) the only time he doesn't is around people from my past who don't know or don't care to know and will make me extremely uncomfortable. This is fine with me, when people in stores think I'm a girl that's also fine. But when it's someone I might see regularly, I'd prefer they'd use male pronouns if they have to use any which can be hard for them if they think I'm a girl- if they saw me naked or saw my license, it would be even more difficult to convince them otherwise.

I think it sounds like maybe my gender is also male and I just like presenting as different things and maybe that's the case. But the reason I put this here is because I'm wondering what other non-binary identifying people have done with their license or other forms of ID? I was seeing a therapist and it got nowhere, if anything I came out way worse (which always happened as a child but I wanted to give it another shot). Has anyone here talked to a therapist about changing their ID? I have noticed a fair number of people seem to identify more as one gender so did you/are you planning on changing your gender marker or if you are "completely" (can't think of a better way to phrase it) androgynous do you have any issues with showing people your ID? I think part of why I'm having these issues is because my therapist sounded like he had experience in this area but when I brought up letters to him and how essentially in my state it's up to my doctors how far I need to transition to have my gender marker changed (last I heard there was this huge thing about not needing "proof" of SRS- though I do want stop surgery so that wouldn't matter anyway) he would change the topic. I was at a stand still with him, I just wanted to know if I could, some day in the future, have my license say male, even though I probably am not FtM.

TL;DR
I'm not really looking for advice, just like to know what other people have done or thought of doing. If you identify more as one gender have you changed your license (or not changed) to show this? If you are androgyne or identify as anything other than male or female what have you done about this? There are certain situations where people are going to see your ID and depending on whether or not it shows what your sex is do you have any issues with showing people or contemplated getting it changed to something more fitting? It's just annoying hiding my license from people and I get horrible anxiety about that. I'm fine with people referring to me as female but when I here "Ooohhh... I THOUGHT you were a chick!" my heart breaks a little. I hope this makes some sense, reading it over I think I managed to confuse myself!

[suzifrommd]

Hi Four_est.

Welcome to Susan's

In response to your question, I'll talk about myself. I'm male-bodied so the experience might be a little different.

I'm not sure where this is going, but it's beginning to look like that the most accurate presentation I'll be able to make to the world that both looks conventional enough to be able to do my job (which requires a highly conservative appearance) and express my gender, would be to present female. Presenting as a male with some female or androgynous touches just isn't socially acceptable enough to avoid being a disruption. Easier for female-bodied people to get away with this sort of thing.

What would I do about license or ID? If I went that way, I think I'd have to get a license change to match my presentation. Don't know the exact laws of my state but I think they are dichotomous. To get a license change, only need a health professional write a letter saying you were presenting as the other gender. To get birth certificate changed, need SRS for men or top surgery for women.

[ativan]

*rant warning*

What is the necessity of having a gender marker on identification documents?
A medical emergency? I'm pretty sure they will be able to figure it out.
On what document will it be a necessary distinction?

It's a carry over from old society norms of placing an emphasis on gender.
In most cases it doesn't have a justification any longer.
In all cases, it shouldn't make a difference.
What logical argument is there, logical being the key word.

On a passport, what is the difference as to whether you are male or female or something different?
You would, should be welcome without it. Why would you not?

Does it make a difference when asked for a Drivers license what your gender is? When? Why?
You don't have it on debit or credit cards...

It shouldn't be a necessity to have to declare your gender, it is a learned response from childhood through life.
When it really comes down to it, if it's that important, get a t-shirt with a proclamation on it.

Is it really that necessary that you have the right pronouns or is it a carry over from Id's?
A carry over of societal expectations that one gender is more important than another?

Just as society is placing less emphasis on what your sexual orientation is, so should it be on what gender you are.
The argument of Trans* rights or equality is a question of what gender you are.
Your gender shouldn't be a question in the first place.
That should be the argument when it comes to equal rights, not whether your gender justification is a human right.

I have a hard time when it comes to justification of gender markers.
They classify without a real justification for that.
I want my marker to just read human. It's how I fill out forms. Nobody questions it. Most smile.
Maybe it's a non-binary thing, but I think markers do people a huge injustice.

Ativan

[suzifrommd]

*rant warning*

What is the necessity of having a gender marker on identification documents?

I think it's to help police locate people who become fugitives.

Doesn't make it right, I agree, but that's the rationale.

[ativan]

Police: "yep, the gender marker matches alright, must be who we're looking for".
*smart-ass remark, I couldn't resist it*
If a person wanted to really be a fugitive, wouldn't their Id be irrelevant?
False Id's being what they are and the ability to change presentation being relatively easy.
I see the point, but if there wasn't a marker, I doubt it would make much difference.

Without wanting to say it, I think the markers are a part of male dominance.
Politics right now being what they seem to be, there is also the 'war on woman' fight for equal rights.
In a sense, it's also a part of equality for Trans* people, with MTF being the bulk of the argument against it.
I don't even want to get into the radfem argumentative remarks.
There is an inequality that has a common thread that just doesn't want to give it up.

That's a part of why I just don't see any justification for markers. Even on birth certificates.
I don't mean to sound radical about it, I have just ended up sounding this way, but not with that intention.
I don't think of my opinion about this to be of anything substantial.
Gender just isn't that high on my personal list of things things that are.

Ativan

[foosnark]

I agree, gender markers aren't really necessary on ID.

It helps narrow someone down to approximately 50% of the population if their appearance matches their recorded gender.  It does nothing when it doesn't.  And it reinforces the ideas that there are exactly two genders and that gender is the same as sex.

[suzifrommd]

Hope y'all will let me play devil's advocate here.


Say I'm a cop looking for a suspect. Dispatch says "Be on the lookout for at 5 foot 9 inch caucasian individual brown hair, green eyes.


First thing I'm going to ask is am I looking for a man or a woman, and I'd be really chuffed if dispatch says "we don't keep that information anymore."

[aleon515]

I don't see why it's necessary either. I suppose it would give cops a *little* more info in a situation where the person has an androgynous name. (Usually people do not.) But it doesn't give much more info.


The suspect is 5'9" and heavy set.


The suspect is a 5'9", heavy set male. It only eliminates 50% of the suspects. Or perhaps fewer. Not much good if that's all you have to go on.


Actually reminds me a bit of racial profiling. Supposedly it would give you more info. Of course it does the opposite and targets a population who often don't look much at all like the suspect in question.

Not sure it helps much medically, really. If it's really a medical emergency, wouldn't they look anyway?


--Jay Jay

[ativan]

Hope y'all will let me play devil's advocate here.

Say I'm a cop looking for a suspect. Dispatch says "Be on the lookout for at 5 foot 9 inch caucasian individual brown hair, green eyes.

First thing I'm going to ask is am I looking for a man or a woman, and I'd be really chuffed if dispatch says "we don't keep that information anymore."

I'll play that. 


Dispatch says, "Be on the lookout for an individual who appears to be a caucasian, brown hair, green eyes, approx. 5'9" and was presenting as a male (or female or androgynous) in appearance.


As a law enforcement person, I would get more from that. If I was told they had evidence that the suspect was a specific gender based on an Id marker, I would include that in my information, but I would still conclude that they could change that appearance very easily in some cases. I would also have better information because if they had that marker info, they would also have given me that persons name, etc. That would be very useful information right there. Being the great law enforcement person I would be, I would feel pretty damn good if I caught that criminal despite the fact that they had changed their gender presentation. Damn I'd be good. 


Ativan