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Jaw reduction

Started by rhondabythebay, May 22, 2007, 11:11:42 PM

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melissa90299

According to the SF Chronicle, there are 19,000 transwomen living here

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I attend a weekly Narcotics Anonymous African-American woman's meeting and it gives me a lot of confidence that I am accepted by the women in that group. As a woman and "of color." (Don't be fooled by the skin shade.) :)
Quote from: Melissa on May 24, 2007, 10:29:33 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 06:11:19 PM
I will repeat my mantra and that "passing" in the city is a whole other ball game, not to say anyone here wouldn't, it's just, well, it's like a guy playing in AAA ball coming up to the bigs, he may make it or he may not.

I would love to have this opportunity in the future sometime.  Currently I work in Portland, another extremely TS aware city, and I have absolutely no problems with passing.  When I went up to esprit last week, there were a number of people from SF that regularly work with the TG community down there and I even passed with them. :)

Not trying to be catty but how does one determine is she passes with other TS women? I have been with TS women who tell me how well they pass that I clocked from a mile away. Even when they tell me that, I don't even roll my eyes or anything, I just agree with them. Of course, it is not for me to judge anyway. One, my sober self tries not to be judgmental and, two, I feel like I can read any transwoman alive.
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Thundra

QuoteI would love to have this opportunity in the future sometime.  Currently I work in Portland, another extremely TS aware city, and I have absolutely no problems with passing.  When I went up to esprit last week, there were a number of people from SF that regularly work with the TG community down there and I even passed with them.

You "pass" better than most women that have had 20 or 30K of facial surgery. But that is not the point is it? It is not to "pass," but to be. In that regard, I think that you [pardon me] pass the test with most women. :: quack ::
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melissa90299

...
Thundra, that is yet another baffling judgment, how can one possibly make that determination?

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Thundra

QuoteThundra, that is yet another baffling judgment, how can one possibly make that determination?

::grins::  Well, that IS the point, is it not? It is most certainly not a determination. That speaks to objectivity, and there is no science of "passing." It is a subjective perception, and any comment anyone makes regarding that judgement is simply an opinion -- the personal opinion of the person stating whatever it is that they perceive to be true.

As Melissa stated, PDX is full of transitioning people of all sort. The majority of the time, I find them quite easy to pick out. Most of it based not only on radical FFS, but also attitude. It is simply my perception. No more and no less. I met Melissa one time, and she blended in really well, at least for PDX, in my opinion. I can say nothing more definitive than that.

Feel free to disagree with me at anytime, by all means. Lots of people do.
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melissa90299

#24
EDIT
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Hypatia

The racial dimension to blending in society is a touchy subject. I have spent my whole life anti-racist, only to come out as trans and be confronted with difficult cultural attitudes. It's ethnic/cultural and has nothing to do with melanin, of course. This is a topic for a whole other thread, I hesitate to bring it up, but one of my trans friends is black herself and she doesn't have it any easier than me, she brought up the subject with me. I live in Washington, DC. I have been through some traumatic and scary experiences in this vein but it's hard to talk about because I'm still deeply anti-racist and I don't want anything I say about it to be taken the wrong way.

I just have to say, mature black women have consistently proven to be my best supporters, overall, of any population in the world. I love them! :)
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Keira


I stand pat by saying that I don't like the esthetic of the O jawline (and he's certainly not the best to go to for rhinoplasty, but that's another story). But, I've got the feeling that he doesn't quite have a choice in that matter, to be able to reduce both side and front views of patients with an originally high jaw, there must be some limitations that the jaw itself imposes. That's probably why he says himself that he can make you look female, but cannot garantee he'll make you pretty.

If one of the dimensions (front or profile) is already fine and the jaw is not too high, I've got the feeling, that he can in fact "make you pretty", but most of these TS are probably already passable and don't got to O. For those, that have one dimension that's fine, burring the bones, what Z, Brassard and many others do, is sufficient.

BTW. In the last few years, there are many crano-facial surgeons who have started to advertise to the trans community, like Bensimon in Montreal (same office as Brassard), which can do the same thing is O for much less. These surgeons initially worked on reconstructive facial surgery of trauma victims or those with congenital or acquired deformities to the face, men or women; they are well versed in the esthetics, and techniques, of reconstructing a face.


While I do agree that in an overall context most O patient pass
absolutely, in a TS context (where you know many TS are gathered), his work is often recognizeable by the facts that each facial proportions follow his esthetic views and standards; the shear number of these fullfiled physionomy criteria makes the work recognizeable.  (that's mainly the case for those who have got the works, or a rhino from him). But, not everyone, even a TS, is so attuned to the "wonders" of FFS; only those, like me, who studied the matter extensively for their own benefit, will probably know.

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melissa90299

There is always someone who "can do it for less" than the top guy. Do not discount the fact that no one in the field has the track record that Doug has as far as having done so many procedures without a single serious complication in the OR.
QuoteWhile I do agree that in an overall context most O patient pass
absolutely, in a TS context (where you know many TS are gathered), his work is often recognizeable by the facts that each facial proportions follow his esthetic views and standards; the shear number of these fullfiled physionomy criteria makes the work recognizeable.  (that's mainly the case for those who have got the works, or a rhino from him). But, not everyone, even a TS, is so attuned to the "wonders" of FFS; only those, like me, who studied the matter extensively for their own benefit, will probably know.

I recognize his noses, which, I believe, are great BTW, just my opinion, I am only one of three patients who he did not recommend a rhino however. As far as all his patients looking alike, that is just an "urban" myth. And although there are aesthetic considerations, Doug's work is more scientific than aesthetic.


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Melissa

Quote from: Thundra on June 09, 2007, 06:17:42 PM
It is not to "pass," but to be.
Yes, that is it.  I actually was able to express this in similar words last week.  I'm not passing as female, but being female.  Passing is rarely a thought in day to day life.

Quote from: Thundra on June 10, 2007, 08:37:46 PM
I met Melissa one time, and she blended in really well, at least for PDX, in my opinion. I can say nothing more definitive than that.
Yeah, and that was back in September.  I've changed a lot since then. :)
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Keira

All plastic surgeons have an esthetic bias, its not all scientific, there are many ways to do things, he's the one choosing.

Melissa, I know a guy at a hospital, an old schoolmate, who reconstructs faces smashed to smithereens by traumatic accidents or missing some parts due to cancer of genetic malformations, into decent average looking faces (sometimes, even pretty). This is what cranio-facial surgeons do. There is NOTHING that O does that hasn't been done elsewhere. The only difference is that he was the first cathering is whole practice systematically to TS patients.

In plastic surgery, which works more like a business than the rest of medecine, top guys are often not better than the others, they're just better known, have a better PR machine.

In the case of plastic surgery, fear of the unknown, the lesser known doctor, rules since you can't buy a surgery and return it if you don't like the result. The most well known surgeons know about this and price themselves accordingly. Its very hard for a good surgeon to break through this fear machine and make a name for themselves, it can take a decade.

That doesn't just happen in plastic surgery, often the "top guy" is not the best, but he's the one that's got the market. IBM ruled for decades that way.

Anyway, I'll have to leave it at that.

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Thundra

QuoteYeah, and that was back in September.  I've changed a lot since then.

You have nothing to worry about, that's for darn sure.

I often wonder if this obsession with facial measurements is GID at it's core? I mean, I know plenty of women that don't like aspects of their features, or their look, but I've never in my life met any women that were totally OBSESSED with every millimeter of their face the way I've seen on this board.

It's like women that transition are not happy until they look like what amounts to less than ten percent of the entire female population. Most women in the world do NOT look like what the good doctor and his kind create. There is absolutely nothing wrong with changing one's face however they so choose. But, it has little to nothing to do with transitioning -- that is my opinion.
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asiangurliee

Oh man, I would love to do a jaw reduction, I think my jaw is bigger than the average female and it is so upsetting to me. I think when it come to female sexual power, the smaller the woman is, the more powerful she is because she is perceived to be more beautiful and feminine. And when I say small, obviously, I mean it is within limit, and not dwarf size. But yeah, a smaller jaw, it's to die for.
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melissa90299

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 03, 2007, 09:12:13 PMI think when it come to female sexual power, the smaller the woman is, the more powerful she is because she is perceived to be more beautiful and feminine.

By whom? Amazon women rule!
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rhonda13000

Some of the best people whom I have met, happened to be named Rhonda, you know?  ;) :laugh:

Mine will occur in roughly 2 months. The procedure will cost me $1900.

It would have costed $250 more, had I opted to have an anesthesiologist, but I've had to endure some pretty serious stuff in my life and have survived.

I'll have it done under local.
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melissa90299

Quote from: Keira on June 11, 2007, 11:36:00 AM



While I do agree that in an overall context most O patient pass
absolutely, in a TS context (where you know many TS are gathered), his work is often recognizeable by the facts that each facial proportions follow his esthetic views and standards; the shear number of these fullfiled physionomy criteria makes the work recognizeable.  (that's mainly the case for those who have got the works, or a rhino from him). But, not everyone, even a TS, is so attuned to the "wonders" of FFS; only those, like me, who studied the matter extensively for their own benefit, will probably know.



No one has Dr O's experience and track record for no problems in the OR. Dr O's noses are unique but other than that I would challenge anyone to pick out his work out of a "lineup." Besides, it is totally irrelevant as no one knows I had any facial work done much less than it was the work of a specific surgeon. Most of the criticism of Doug is motivated by "sour grapes."

BTW even though his noses might be recognized by .0000000000000000000000001% of the world's population, those are very nice noses, I am almost envious that I didn't need one, one of three patients out of 1000 that he did not recommend a rhino. And,  BTW I am living proof that Dr O doesn't recommend the "works" for everyone. He did not recommend a cartilage reduction either.

Dr Ousterhout, of course, has reached legendary status and there are so many myths concerning his work it is mind boggling, he has done over a thousand of these procedures, which is only a drop in the bucket considering there are millions ( TG and GG)  of women who would benefit form his work.
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Hypatia

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 03, 2007, 09:44:09 PMAmazon women rule!

Absolutely. These days, tall women are hott.

I could swear female height has been on the rise in the USA since I was a kid. I see a lot of six-foot babes walking around these days. The aesthetic for female beauty has changed accordingly.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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asiangurliee

Well, i want to be a small woman. =0

Okay, well my problem is not so much with my masculine jaw (although that's a problem), but the bigger problem is my jaw is simply bigger than that of an average female. I think many Asian females have masculine jaw line, but the difference between these Asian women and men is that the jaw of the Asian women is smaller. *sigh*

It's funny, I don't even notice these scary features when I was a guy. I wonder would it become smaller if i starve myself or if there are some sort of facial exercise to shrink my face. Hehe. .
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rhonda13000

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 03, 2007, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 03, 2007, 09:12:13 PMI think when it come to female sexual power, the smaller the woman is, the more powerful she is because she is perceived to be more beautiful and feminine.

By whom? Amazon women rule!

They sure do and you and I are examples that amazon women can be attractive and pretty, too.
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