is this reaction reasonable or because of gender norms?

[Natkat]

I post this in mtf forum cause I belive you have more knowlegde in this.

I been on T for around 2 years and pass and live as a guy pretty much all the time.
I do have something for dressing up and I like using make up and all short of stuff.

when theres an event, a party, demonstration or anything where I am dressed up, then I always prepear myself to try on the costume and make up some days before the actual event to check out how it looks then remove the costume and make up the same day before I go to bed, however since the make up usunally is pretty extreme its almost imposible to get rid of it all 100% so usunally I still got a small amount dark shadows around and in my eyeslashes who looks like mascara, abit like this and sometime less.


it dosen't bother me but my mom (which I live with) often make a drama out of it and tell me to remove the small shadow with my eyes. she say it gonna mess up pillows or that its unhealthy for my skin.

I don't really like to remove the last shadow somethimes cause it cool, because I dont care, or because it very difficult and kinda painfull to remove it all 100% so close to my eyes.

I wonder why she makes such a fuss, like today I hardly could see I had anything left on myself and she said  "your look like a black person go remove it"

I wonder if theres a point in what she say or if she simple do not want me to wear make up because I pass as a guy and she dosent like me to show femenine signs. She also made fuss about me wearing nail polish(but it may also be cause my school do not allow it), or having kneesocks or long hair.
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so since I only use make up ocacionally I will ask, is it nessesarry to always remove all make up 100% before you go to sleep? or is it due to gender roles?

[AMDERS]

Not removing all of your makeup before bed can cause acne breakouts, etc. Since I don't think anyone gets acne breakouts on their eyelids and around the eyelash area, I think you should be fine. I don't know your mother, so I can't tell you what she thinks, but I know plenty of normal guys who wear eyeliner. I would just tell her that it's your style and if you have to remove it, use makeup wipes and a good facial cleanser and it should come right off.

[nepla]

I too tend not to remove all my mascara at night and will have somewhat darker eyelids - I don't think my wife is totally keen on it but generally I do present with a slight amount of mascara in "boy" mode - which is anytime outside the house. I am 66 years old - don't know if that makes a difference though.

[smile_jma]

It sounds to me like probably gender roles that she wants you to conform too, but again, I don't know your mother to be sure.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Eh if you don't remove the makeup around your eyes you can get a bacterial infection

[Natkat]

thanks for the answer, still confussed with her intention.

in a way I got so little make up that I hardly see her point in making a fuss so I belive it more about genderoles, on the other hand my mom is alergic to make up, so it could also be why she is acting so wierd.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Last time I looked, men don't wear makeup unless they make a living on TV.

You being FTM, I am just assuming you are having trouble leaving the make up behind.

If I saw a guy wearing makeup or signs of having worn makeup, I'd be a bit confused about them.

My being MTF, wearing makeup won't take any of my friends off guard, I'm a woman eh, and women wear makeup.

Guys don't.

It's going to be messing with your ability to pass if anything.

[Carlita]

Well, when I was the age I guess you must be, Natkat, I walked around the whole time covered in make-up. But that was partly because it was the late 70s/early 80s and partly because ... oh, wait ... yeah, I was trying to let the world know that there was a flamin' MTF transsexual trapped inside me screaming to get out! But then I locked her away for the next 30 years ... and what a dumb mistake THAT was!!

Seriously, Nat ... some very cool, very masculine guys have worn eyeliner. Like Elvis, at his absolute prime, for example. So that's not a problem. Not taking your make-up off at night, tho ... well, that's not so recommended ...

[A]

Yeah, not removing ALL of it can cause problems. If it gets into your eye in just the wrong way, you might wake up with an ugly surprise. And yeah, if it's foundation or something like that we're talking about, of course, some skin problems like acne can show up.

So her worry isn't unjustified. But to be honest with you, a little remaining stain of eyeshadow has a pretty low chance of causing issues, so maybe she's being a bit paranoid.

But then, add to that her problem with knee socks and stuff, and I believe she may have a problem with gender as a whole, yes. Many people only have two categories for gender and all. Man, woman. Sometimes they won't have so much of a problem switching someone from a category to another. They understand the principle of "mind in the wrong body". But even though they accept one being the other, they can still be stuck up on gender roles. Women are this, this and this, and men are that, that and that, and you have to be either.

It also reminds me of how in Iran it's okay to be transsexual, and they help you transition, even, but if you're gay, they kill you, no questions asked.

If you think your mother is in that case, then perhaps a discussion about how one can be a man AND shave his legs (random example) is in order.

On the other hand, it might also just be her being overprotective. Many parents have that strong fear that their trans child will be rejected; stronger even than the child's own fears. She may be overly afraid of you getting into trouble for appearing as something else than a normal, traditional man. It may be true that many traditional men reject non-traditional men, but nevertheless, the non-traditional men I've seen appear to be amongst the most social creatures.

PS: Lol, the school not allowing nail polish? The heck. Sounds even worse than them not allowing unnatural hair colours.

Lesley: You need to, uhm, update yourself. My sister went to a manucure salon and saw several men there. Even some older ones. And many of her male friends (many of which are gay, but not all of them) wear make-up all the time when they go to a club.

And several men wear subtle make-up every day (like foundation and whatnot) because they don't like how their skin looks, or they have acne/shaving redness to hide, etc. Really, men wearing strong make-up like lipstick and mascara is a bit rare and apart from special events does often feel like they have feminine tendencies (apart from special cases like gothics and emos maybe), but even then...

My sister took me to a (largely gay frequented) cabaret once, and I saw 2-3 guys on the dance floor who clearly weren't crossdressing, and even though they were also clearly gay, they had quite strong eye make-up.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Lesley Roberta I think your generalizing here, there are plenty of men that wear makeup everything from rock stars too drag queens and ->-bleeped-<-s and genderfluid people who may or may not be intersex. I think that's a silly stereotype that men can't wear makeup or that women cant be seen without it. Not picking on you or anything...just pointing it out.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Lesley Roberta I think your generalizing here, there are plenty of men that wear makeup everything from rock stars too drag queens and ->-bleeped-<-s and genderfluid people who may or may not be intersex. I think that's a silly stereotype that men can't wear makeup or that women cant be seen without it. Not picking on you or anything...just pointing it out.

Well I did mention people on TV, but in as much as you and I both know what I am saying when I say, yer average boring cis male isn't going to be in a big hurry to state a drag queen is a man. Or for that matter much of what we commonly discuss around here.

You walk into any Tim Horton's and you look around, and you will NOT find any of the males in the establishment wearing makeup. None, not a few, zero zip nadda. That's not a generalization, that is a flat out fact. You will see oodles of men walk in and out, all sorts of occupations, and none of the guys will have any makeup on. None of them. Hey I watch this all the time for a hour during my visits. All I am doing is sitting there people watching.

But then again, I have never once seen a rock star, grag queen, transanything come into the store either.

Maybe the truth is, Canada, rural Canada that is, is simply that boringly plain. Been living in this town since 67, and ya know I have never seen a girl that is clearly a working girl, I have never seen someone obviously selling drugs, we have no gangs, there are none of the social groupings everyone seems to think exist everywhere. We have no slum section. Our downtown is a single street that passes through town. It's a community 5 miles wide more or less stuck in the middle of rural Canada.

I seriously wonder some days, if anyone in town would even know what I was talking about if I told them I was a transwoman. 'Yer a what?'
I know ONE person in town that I have been told is homosexual. Heck I grew up with him, he's an old friend. I've never had the urge to outright ask him 'hey Scott are you gay?'. So as a result, I have been in town since 67, and I have never actually met a single person I KNEW was gay.

You might think it is wrong to say 'men don't wear makeup', but until I meet a man wearing makeup, I don't see any reason to think it is an unreasonable statement. I recall all the music videos of the 80s, yeah the guys had makeup in those, so what, they were on stage performing. It said nothing. I would think they likely didn't wear makeup while out shopping for groceries though.

Do drag queens dress in drag all the time as a matter of routine? What is an 'ordinary day' in the life of a drag queen?

I put on female deoderant products after my bath. I wear perfume when I go out.
The day I sort out a hair solution, I likely will also attend to some form of makeup to see if it can help me any.
But I have a lot of male appearance to get rid of.

I am not sure what the point would be for the average male to use makeup.

[Shawn Sunshine]

In that context it makes sense...at least in north america and uk and australia and ruraul areas
...but cultures vary when it comes to.painting your face....of course todays mainstream idea of makeup is different than lets say native american tribes. I was looking at it from.a broader world culture.view.

[RosieD]

Sorry Lesley but I am with Shawn on this one. Try googling guyliner.

Rosie.

[Natkat]

Well, when I was the age I guess you must be,

20 so I need to move out soon,

Yeah, not removing ALL of it can cause problems. If it gets into your eye in just the wrong way, you might wake up with an ugly surprise. And yeah, if it's foundation or something like that we're talking about, of course, some skin problems like acne can show up.

So her worry isn't unjustified. But to be honest with you, a little remaining stain of eyeshadow has a pretty low chance of causing issues, so maybe she's being a bit paranoid.

But then, add to that her problem with knee socks and stuff, and I believe she may have a problem with gender as a whole, yes. Many people only have two categories for gender and all. Man, woman. Sometimes they won't have so much of a problem switching someone from a category to another. They understand the principle of "mind in the wrong body". But even though they accept one being the other, they can still be stuck up on gender roles. Women are this, this and this, and men are that, that and that, and you have to be either.

It also reminds me of how in Iran it's okay to be transsexual, and they help you transition, even, but if you're gay, they kill you, no questions asked.

If you think your mother is in that case, then perhaps a discussion about how one can be a man AND shave his legs (random example) is in order.

On the other hand, it might also just be her being overprotective. Many parents have that strong fear that their trans child will be rejected; stronger even than the child's own fears. She may be overly afraid of you getting into trouble for appearing as something else than a normal, traditional man. It may be true that many traditional men reject non-traditional men, but nevertheless, the non-traditional men I've seen appear to be amongst the most social creatures.

PS: Lol, the school not allowing nail polish? The heck. Sounds even worse than them not allowing unnatural hair colours.

just pointing out quickly I don't wear foundationg or anything like that exept for costumes. the only make-up which I have worn for everydaylife is eyeshadow in dark colour, neighpolish or darken my eyebrows alittle but most of the time I am too lazy to either put it on or dealing with strugles my mom or school would give me for doing it. so most of the time im pretty casual looking.
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my mom got a pretty complex personalety, I can't even ask her because if it where due to genderoles she would never admit it.
she also wierd cause in one way she been very surporting of me and in other way she have not been very suportive, shes the typical nordic submissive kind of person, meaning its fine your gay trans or whatever but dont go around waving your flag and getting alot of attention.
its not that she complitely hate girly guys or boyish girls, I was once bullied for being more femenine and my mom said it sure guys can be femenine, which made me happy, but I think the point in not fitting in makes sense because my mom have always been very overprotective of me, and even when I live in the most friendly lgbt citys in my country its not like its common.
I live in a mixed place with punks muslims, and maybe she could worry it to cause problems, I however have never felt there was a problem in my area, at my school area I however had a couple of bullies in my past, theres many white people and somehow it makes me more unconfortable.
I think it may be some of the reason for her reactions thinking of it.
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I don't think Iran is very transexual friendly only if your binary and for those who isnt binary then its no good threatment, I belive it to be like where I live, if your fall into the category of "trans enough" you can get what you want but you have to prove that first and if your dont fall in the category of being "man or woman enough" well then theres no help at all.
theres a good documentary about iran maybe you seen it already.
http://documentaryheaven.com/transsexual-in-iran/

[Natkat]

PS: Lol, the school not allowing nail polish? The heck. Sounds even worse than them not allowing unnatural hair colours.

currently im on waitor/waitress class, and we have cook or waitor lessons a couple of times a week, which mean we are suposed to show up in our uniforms and dresscodes. which is black/white cook/waitor uniform.
in the other lessons theres no dresscode. mention the haircolour I really want to colour my hair blue green or pink when I get money, but its abit troublesome if im to get work cause one of my friend had problem. she was a waitress and she had pink hair at work which her boss didnt like, so I fear it may be troublesome some resturants are pretty strick which how you suposed to look and not look like.
I may also ask about this later on susan when I get more into these looking for jobs cause I may work in another country like german or US, what the dresscodes and rules are.

[A]

Leslie: A few points.

1. The customer base of a Tim Hortons, especially those who will be sitting in there, is far from statistically representative. Dunno about your town, but here, many people will walk in there and go out, to buy doughnuts or stuff, but the people sitting there... It's almost exclusively uhm... we'd call that a manifestation of the Golden age club here, but that's probably a French exclusive expression. Basically, a meet-up of 65+ retirees.

2. Men wearing make-up make sure they don't look like they're wearing make-up, if they're wearing it in their everyday lives. Even more so than women. Make-up especially sold to men, actually, is all about discretion (whether that's just marketing or not). So you may not have seen many because you're in a rural area, but you may very well have seen many men who wore make-up - just, you never knew.

3. The rural world is very special compared to cities most people reside in. I swear. I only live in a relatively small city and I swear there are huge differences. I don't even want to imagine a million-people metropole.

4. 90 % + gays don't have a tab on their forehead saying they're gay. Of the gays I've known or met, only two expressed a stereotypically gay behaviour.

Natkat: Yeah, Iran is like that, isn't it? I'll take a look at the documentary. I was thinking that "transsexual" only covered those who were truly wishing to be the other gender, which is why I said it like that, but thinking about it, the category absolutely doesn't exclude non perfect binaries, does it?

And yeah, that makes more sense, then, the dress code. I didn't know you were in that kind of specific class. However sad, in that kind of domain, looks and decorum are super important. I was fired from a hotel after two days for having hair in my eyes and joking with a customer.

[Natkat]

Natkat: Yeah, Iran is like that, isn't it? I'll take a look at the documentary. I was thinking that "transsexual" only covered those who were truly wishing to be the other gender, which is why I said it like that, but thinking about it, the category absolutely doesn't exclude non perfect binaries, does it?

And yeah, that makes more sense, then, the dress code. I didn't know you were in that kind of specific class. However sad, in that kind of domain, looks and decorum are super important. I was fired from a hotel after two days for having hair in my eyes and joking with a customer.

in those class there pretty stick, in the class where we dont have to have uniform there not very strick.
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Personally I never been there so can't say for sure whats its like.
I have a chat friend who goes there once in a while but his "only gay" so I dont think he could help me much. I just don't think a place who only accept binary transexual accept the transgender as a whole, neither do I belive this process show acceptence toward transexuals either cause "when or when not are you ENOUGH transexual? then your have to prove yourself like in my country where every transman or women are going to sort of like an exame where they make themself even more femenine or masuline than they actually are just to get the permission "okay we belive your a real man/woman we will help you" thats not being surportive of transexuals thats having 1 idea how transexuals is who may fit some bit clearly not everyone, and then force anyone ells to fit that category.
sure nonbinary have problems with this cause it dose not accept them at all, but I also know transexuals who consider themself pretty binary who still do not fit well into this because theres almost always something they can put on you for not being "trans enough" whenever its your past, your interest, the way you talk, and so on..
and think about it,

if being gay is a deadly sin but being trans is okay, then a transguy who is in love with a girl is fine, but if theres something where they then say its not "a real transguy" or his not trans enough to be trans for whatever reason, then out of sudden he is gay and can be punished by death.

[A]

Don't try to make sense of extremist Islamists' decisions. Even if you believe in their religion strongly, you'll still find critical flaws in all of their reasoning, not to mention the obvious ethical issues.

Also, your friend should never go to Iran again. They say "we don't have gays in Iran", and it's probably partly true, because they slaughter them. Not sure they'll spare tourists if they learn about it.

As for transsexualism tests... I'm not against the principle, but it needs to be done properly. As in, the criteria should make sense in the tests, and not rely on femininity or masculinity. But the way you say it, they're not done properly. Better off not testing people if they're going to test them on a silly scale.

And even if they wanted to make a proper test... Knowledge on transsexualism right now is not advanced enough to really know how. Maybe, someday, there'll be an infaillible diagnostic process that'll put a stop to both hasty mistaken transitions and long waits (or worse, refusals). Would be nice.

[Natkat]

Don't try to make sense of extremist Islamists' decisions. Even if you believe in their religion strongly, you'll still find critical flaws in all of their reasoning, not to mention the obvious ethical issues.

Also, your friend should never go to Iran again. They say "we don't have gays in Iran", and it's probably partly true, because they slaughter them. Not sure they'll spare tourists if they learn about it.

As for transsexualism tests... I'm not against the principle, but it needs to be done properly. As in, the criteria should make sense in the tests, and not rely on femininity or masculinity. But the way you say it, they're not done properly. Better off not testing people if they're going to test them on a silly scale.

And even if they wanted to make a proper test... Knowledge on transsexualism right now is not advanced enough to really know how. Maybe, someday, there'll be an infaillible diagnostic process that'll put a stop to both hasty mistaken transitions and long waits (or worse, refusals). Would be nice.

I think theres a gaybar in Iran so sure theres gay people,
unfurtunatly its not only Irans who say so, I also heard ignorant saying that.

My friend as far I Remember is from Iran, so he goes back to visit famely for cellebration or maybe work, a previous gay guy I talked to worked in Iran, I could never do such thing my brother been in Iran but his also straight cismale so it something ells
If I would go to the middle east I bet it would be egypt or isreal.

I dont like the idea of a test but I think it would be good if there was a requirement to talk to people make sure they where aware of there situation, that they had thought about it, and give the proper knowlegde and understanding on what the threatment means.
it also diffrent what people need so better take it invidually insteed of having 1 box and 1 right answer to say.

[Allison]

That's just simply gender role conforming I know some guys that are absolutely sexy with eyeliner. Johnny Depp is seen as a man and wears eyeliner. It's just a gender norm and guys wearing it are just seen as a little odd; I mean if you LOOK like a guy and wear eyeliner you're a guy with eyeliner/shadow ain't nobody gonna bat an eye except for that fact. There are plenty of men that do it; so a little makeup here and there ain't gonna make you any less of a man.

Honestly if I cared enough now (pre transition MTF) I would definitely put eyeliner on because I get compliments on my eyes ALL the time. If you're proud of what you got, show it off dude. But yeah if you dont remove it at night it can definitely ruin fabric and cause acne like someone else said; but outside of that do what you want.