Can Trans-Christians Really Find That "Happy" Medium ?

[katiej]

There were conflicts between Peter and Paul as to rather every Christian was bound by Jewish Old Testament Law.   Paul taught that gentile Christians were not and Peter felt they should be.

Not true.  They had other disagreements, but this wasn't the issue.  In Acts 15, the church leaders all gathered to address this very issue.  Peter's admonition was:

"Why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke (the law) which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


Then James outlined a very simple group of 4 rules for all believers to follow in Acts 15:19.  Their assumption is that believers will, through prayer and submission to God, not need such a detailed list as what they were given in the Old Testament law.  Direct relationship with God through the Holy Spirit and connection to other believers should lead them to do what is right.

It was only after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire that Christian doctrine began to be codified at the order of the Emporer of the Roman Empire because the many differing groups of Christians were at war with each other declaring each other heretics.

Most of the New Testament is made up of letters from the apostles to local groups of believers to set them straight.  And there is regular mention all over the New Testament of adhering to "the apostles' doctrine."  You're right that there wasn't a denominational structure, but there most certainly was structure.

God is increasingly revealed to be benevolent and forgiving, and this culminates in the New Testament. There is a narrative there, that atheists and biblicists/fundamentalists forget alike.

This is very well said.  In a nutshell, the Bible reads like a very long narrative of what God set up from the beginning.  After the fall of man, sin entered the world and we were separated from God.  The law was then given to demonstrate man's inability to satisfy the requirements of the law and to demonstrate the need for a Savior.  Christ was promised and prophesied in the last half of the OT, giving hope of salvation.  Then He showed up, satisfied the law, and restored man's connection to God.  The Holy Spirit was then given to facilitate our connection, through Jesus, to God.

The whole narrative shows God's kind intentions from the beginning.  It has just taken 6-10,000 years to unfold.

Jesus said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."  And so anyone who assumes it is their place to judge or condemn others, are clearly not representing God.  The Jesus of the New Testament gospels preferred to spend time with the outcasts of society, and His only harsh words were directed at the religious establishment.

Kia ora,

Thank you all for your responses so far, which have stretched the boundaries of understanding and have enlighten people such as my(atheist)self...And thank you all when commenting on this thread for remembering that when it comes to the issues faced by trans-people (both religious and irreligious) we are all in it together and are here to help each other where and when we can...

Metta Zenda

Anatta, thank you for starting this discussion.  I've really enjoyed it.  We are indeed all in this together, and it kills me that fellow Christians have been so hurtful to the entire LGBT community.  They have misinterpreted Scripture, and actually feel like they are defending God.  But I believe that it will be very different within a generation.

Although religions get a lot of the blame for mistreating LGBT people, it really is a society-wide issue.  I live in California, one of the more liberal and non-religious states in the US.  And marriage equality couldn't even pass here.  It required a federal judge to strike down the law.

[Anatta]

Anatta, thank you for starting this discussion.  I've really enjoyed it.  We are indeed all in this together, and it kills me that fellow Christians have been so hurtful to the entire LGBT community.  They have misinterpreted Scripture, and actually feel like they are defending God.  But I believe that it will be very different within a generation.

Although religions get a lot of the blame for mistreating LGBT people, it really is a society-wide issue.  I live in California, one of the more liberal and non-religious states in the US.  And marriage equality couldn't even pass here.  It required a federal judge to strike down the law.

KIa Ora Katie,

You're welcome...I'm just fascinated and amazed by the wealth of knowledge of some members on this topic...

Even though I tread a different path, one that doesn't involve a belief in any form of creator being(apart from the unwholesome god of ignorance of which suffering is the reward it shares with its followers), I have a keen interest in how others find ways to cope with their situation (gender issues), especially when it seems they are having to fight an up hill battle with their faith, in their god, others and themselves...

Metta Zenda

[katiej]

I have a keen interest in how others find ways to cope with their situation (gender issues), especially when it seems they are having to fight an up hill battle with their faith, in their god, others and themselves...

That's one thing that brings us all together.  Regardless of religion, we all have an up hill battle within ourselves, our families, and in society.  Even the LGBT community doesn't always know what to do with us.  It doesn't help our cause that the public perception of trans people is the guy in a dress on Jerry Springer.  Unfortunately, most of our best representatives are trying to blend in and move on with their lives...and rightfully so.

But you're right that religious beliefs do a lot to hold us back.  In my case, my dad is a minister.  So that added more pressure to keep my secret.  Ironically, my dad has spent the last 10 years pastoring a church that is 80% LGBT, and that has actually helped me come to terms with my situation.

[gennee]

When I came out as transgender, I felt affirmed by God. I never felt any shame or guilt about it. When I was helping people to understand that the can be Christian and transgender, I read and studied the scriptures because there were many misconceptions and untruths being foisted out there. God knows everything about because he knew us before we were even born. Being transgender is a part of His plan for our lives.

Maybe society doesn't understand us or don't see what value we have but God certainly does. Christians have been persecuted throughout the centuries because they didn't adhere to what society was suppose to represent. Being transgender is one of the wonderful things in my life because I am completed and liberated.

[Anatta]

When I came out as transgender, I felt affirmed by God. I never felt any shame or guilt about it. When I was helping people to understand that the can be Christian and transgender, I read and studied the scriptures because there were many misconceptions and untruths being foisted out there. God knows everything about because he knew us before we were even born. Being transgender is a part of His plan for our lives.

Maybe society doesn't understand us or don't see what value we have but God certainly does. Christians have been persecuted throughout the centuries because they didn't adhere to what society was suppose to represent. Being transgender is one of the wonderful things in my life because I am completed and liberated.

Kia Ora Gennee,

It sounds like you have found your "Happy Place"...

Metta Zenda

[Anatta]

That's one thing that brings us all together.  Regardless of religion, we all have an up hill battle within ourselves, our families, and in society.  Even the LGBT community doesn't always know what to do with us.  It doesn't help our cause that the public perception of trans people is the guy in a dress on Jerry Springer.  Unfortunately, most of our best representatives are trying to blend in and move on with their lives...and rightfully so.

But you're right that religious beliefs do a lot to hold us back.  In my case, my dad is a minister.  So that added more pressure to keep my secret.  Ironically, my dad has spent the last 10 years pastoring a church that is 80% LGBT, and that has actually helped me come to terms with my situation.

Kia Ora Katie,

That's great news...Because of your father's position it sounds like his love and acceptance will be forthcoming ...

Metta Zenda

[michelle]

(Quote from ketiej, not my mistake) Sorry I should have said Rina.

Not true. When Jesus says to Peter "thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church", the word used for "church" in the Greek text is "ecclesia", which was also the term used for the electorate in Greek city states - a highly organized entity, and not least a legal/jurisdictional term.

"Also, in the Septuagint (the translation of the Old Testament to Greek, which predates Christianity), the word "ecclesia" is used to translate the Hebrew word "qahal", which again was the term used to refer to those who had religious and national "citizenship" in the people of Israel. Again, a highly organized entity etc.

Since "ecclesia" bears this meaning in Greek, and is used to translate a nearly equivalent word from Hebrew by the Jews who translated the Septuagint, it is reasonable to believe that Jesus used the Hebrew (while he spoke Aramaic, Jews at the time often used Hebrew religious terms) "qahal" when he spoke those words to Peter. So if the gospels are right (and if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be Christian - there are also no better sources anyways), Jesus did indeed intend to form an organized Church."

I did not say that Jesus did not give Peter the authority to build a Christian Community,  I said that Jesus did not give Peter the Charter that prescribed the exact nature of the institutions of the Christian Church.   Mohammad himself formed the governmental structure of the Islamic Community and lead the Islamic community until his death.  He left the Islamic community the Koran as Holy Guidence for the community.

Because Mohammed did not outline a specific written document as to how leadership was to be passed down after his death, this lead to the many schisms in the Islamic Community.

Jesus did not inscribe in written documents any of the doctrine of belief for the Christian community that formed around Peter and Paul.   Jesus did not leave a legal written charter which stated that his Church was to be lead by the Pope elected by a College of Cardinals as it is today.   Jesus did not prescribe what images of him or his family or any of the saint or apostles could be represented in the physical Churches that the Christians worshiped in.    Jesus did not even designate the Holy Cross as a symbol for his Church.    Peter,  Paul, the Popes, and the Christian Roman Emperors were left to decide this.   Jesus did not even authorize the Apostles Creed which is the statement of faith for Christian Faiths.   Jesus did not prescribe what Books would be in the Christian Bible.   Did Jesus say that the writings of Paul should be considered Holy Scripture?   He did none of these things,  nor did he give Peter specific authority to do so.   For the most part Peter did not even authorize these things.   As to who and what institutions were to have authority over the Christian Faith after Peter's passing we have no written charter as to what form these institutions were to take.

In the Baha'i Faith  we have these written records which pass on authority and set up the Spiritual Institutions which govern our Faith today.

I am not saying that there was any thing wrong with what Peter or Paul did, but the lack of these records and disputes over authority within the Christianity,  over doctrinal believes, over the Statement of Faith, over the Holy Sacraments, over the symbols and artistic expressions of the Church, etc have splintered the Christian Church into many different Christian communities,  much as the dispute over how governmental power was to be past down after Mohammed's death has splintered the Islamic community.

Basically, nobody in any of the many different Christian Faiths has the authority to speak for God and to condemn the GLBTQ Community for their life style.   Each individual can read the Bible and decide for themselves how they should live their lives and just take the chance that it might or might not find favor in the Eyes of God.

[Rina]

Quote from ketiej

I think you quoted me, not ketiej

Anyhow, the below response became longer than intended. I should learn to be more concise. But here goes:

I did not say that Jesus did not give Peter the authority to build a Christian Community,  I said that Jesus did not give Peter the Charter that prescribed the exact nature of the institutions of the Christian Church.   Mohammad himself formed the governmental structure of the Islamic Community and lead the Islamic community until his death.  He left the Islamic community the Koran as Holy Guidence for the community.

Because Mohammed did not outline a specific written document as to how leadership was to be passed down after his death, this lead to the many schisms in the Islamic Community.

Jesus did not inscribe in written documents <snip>

Remember that in Apostolic Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Churches), written documents are not the only authoritative source of our theology.

But you are right, Jesus did not leave written, detailed instructions as to how the Church was to be organized. As a matter of fact, He did not write anything at all. He did, however, give the Apostles a mandate to govern the Church (which, given His use of the word ecclesia/qahal, was to be a jurisdictional body, not just a loosely formed community), and the Apostles used their mandate to institute the hierarchy shared by all Apostolic Churches to date.

Which leads me to the point - except for Protestantism, which only accounts for 25% of Christians on a global level, all Churches agree on almost 100% of their theology. We all share the basics of hierarchal structure, through the three levels of Holy Orders (deacon, presbyter, bishop), apostolic succession, etc. We all believe in the same seven sacraments, the same Trinitarian belief (except some of the Oriental Churches who took issue with the Chalcedon council, but the difference in belief has in recent years proven to be much smaller than we originally believed - it was more a matter of language than of content), etc. Our rites may be different (but the structure is similar in all of them), but our faith is virtually the same.

In the Baha'i Faith  we have these written records which pass on authority and set up the Spiritual Institutions which govern our Faith today.

While I do respect the Baha'i Faith, especially for its emphasis on peace and unity, I have problems believing that a religion which came into existence in the 19th century has access to original texts describing what Jesus (or anyone else, for that matter) really intended. It effectively implies that God allowed Christianity to be fooled for two millennia, just to give the truth to a select few. That is not the God I believe in. It implies that 2 billion Christians are left in the dark, with only a few million really knowing God.

That said, what I do like about the Baha'i Faith, is that it (if I understand it correctly - I have to admit my knowledge is limited) at least acknowledges Christians as followers of God. The theological results are far worse in religions like the Watchtower Society, who seem to think everyone but a small fraction of their own believers will be annihilated or damned.

I am not saying that there was any thing wrong with what Peter or Paul did, but the lack of these records and disputes over authority within the Christianity,  over doctrinal believes, over the Statement of Faith, over the Holy Sacraments, over the symbols and artistic expressions of the Church, etc have splintered the Christian Church into many different Christian communities,  much as the dispute over how governmental power was to be past down after Mohammed's death has splintered the Islamic community.

The splintering of Christianity has mainly happened because Protestantism decided to discard the Apostolic Tradition. As I mentioned above, the Apostolic Churches are not primarily divided because of theology - we share 99% of our theology, and the difference isn't really dogmatic. I'm not saying there aren't differences, but they're too small to be the real cause of division. Take the filioque addition to the Nicene Creed - the Latin Church used that addition for several hundred years without the Eastern Church taking issue with it at all. It only became an issue when they were growing (in part rightly) tired of the Pope's increasing wish to govern details in the Eastern Churches. It became the symbolic reason for the schism.

So to try to get to my point: There really isn't much division within Apostolic Christianity, and the division is often superficial. The Catholic Church is one, organizationally as well in faith. The Eastern Orthodox Church is one in faith, but divided according to territory and jurisdiction, since they no longer recognize any authority above the Patriarchs. The Oriental Churches are also mainly divided by territory. So except for the East-West schism, there is unity within the larger "clusters" of churches.

Protestantism, however, is as you rightly say, splintered. There are over 30,000 denominations, who often split over things that would be seen as legitimate disagreement within the Apostolic Churches. I think that is what happens when the Apostolic Tradition is discarded - with the Bible only to guide them, there is room for a lot of very different interpretations, and since they all "just read the Bible as it is", the disagreements are rarely accepted as legitimate, and hence cause division.

Basically, nobody in any of the many different Christian Faiths has the authority to speak for God and to condemn the GLBTQ Community for their life style.

I both agree and disagree to this. On the one hand, a religion has the right to make moral demands of its believers. Choosing to adhere to a faith has consequences, and it is not like anyone is forced to be Catholic, Pentecostal or anything else. And I do believe the Bishops in a council or the Pope under special circumstances have the authority to interpret Scripture and Tradition authoritatively - the Apostles did that, and they did confer their authority to their successors. But that said, of course a religion has no right to make demands of people who do not subscribe to their faith, perhaps with the exception of what is contained in natural law.

Regarding LGBTQ issues, I'm also a bit conflicted. Trans issues is a no-brainer; it is not even mentioned in the Bible, and there is no doctrine condemning transition. Gender dysphoria is a valid condition, and transition is valid and necessary medical treatment. According to Catholicism, altering the body is morally licit if it is a medical/therapeutical necessity. This is unproblematic. Anyone who claims anything else is wrong. But sadly, there are a lot of them

That said, the LGB part is more complicated. Homosexual acts (not the orientation) has been seen as immoral since the time of the Apostles, and the argument laid out in Catholic doctrine (not the newspaper version) is valid given the premises. I'm unable to discard a valid argument just because I don't like the conclusion. But that said, interpretation of doctrine can change, and I'm not sure the current interpretation is set in stone.

But in either case, every individual has a choice regarding religion, and no one is forced to remain part of it. I will not be allowed to marry in the Church because I will be seen as impotent, and while that of course can become a problem if I suddenly find myself in a relationship, it is one of the things I've just decided to accept. I think this will change when stem cell research makes it possible to grow internal parts, since by that point, the person will be able to reproduce as their identified gender. But that won't happen tomorrow. Nothing stops me from getting a civil marriage, however, and it's not like I'd be excommunicated for getting one (I'd simply be asked to refrain from receiving Communion, which isn't really meant as "punishment", but I'll leave that explanation for another time ). But as for now, I've decided to try and follow what the Church asks from me. That is my choice, not forced upon me by anyone - and something I will never try to force upon anyone else. I can explain my choice to others, but their choices are not my business.

Gay marriage, however, will not happen in Catholicism, simply because the nature of marriage is dogma, and is different from the secular definition. I think gay unions might be recognized in some form or another in the future, but it is not up to me, and I doubt I'll live to see it. I know gays who have decided to stay celibate because of what the Church teaches, and they're happy with their choice. I don't think everyone can do that, and I won't even say everyone should. I also know about cohabitating gay couples who are practicing Catholics, but have decided not to receive Communion. Their priest respects them, and they're happy with their choice too. People choose differently, and it's not up to me to tell anyone what they should do.

I do however agree with what pp. Francis said about some Catholics being "obsessed with gays" (or something like that) - it is detrimental to the Church, and it turns people away. I also don't see the problem with gay civil marriage (though I do think secular states should simply remove marriage from their laws and replace it with a civil union which could also be between non-sexual partners, like when siblings decide to live together), and I don't understand why bishops in some countries spend so much energy on fighting it. I spend more time fighting those attitudes than I spend defending Church teaching, actually. That kind of "fundamentalist Catholicism" annoys me, but at least they are a minority - just a very vocal one.

Each individual can read the Bible and decide for themselves how they should live their lives and just take the chance that it might or might not find favor in the Eyes of God.

I'm not sure I agree with the former - I don't believe in the Bible alone, and hence I think reading the Bible as the sole source of one's theology is not enough. I believe in the Magisterium, and I believe not having a teaching authority causes chaos. I'll rather live with the slow-moving, always-behind-the-times teaching authority of Apostolic Churches than the splintering of Bible-alone communities.

I do however completely agree with the latter. All one can do is to do one's best, and what one thinks is right, and hope God will look upon us with favor.

[Talitha Cumi]

"Trans issues is a no-brainer; it is not even mentioned in the Bible, and there is no doctrine condemning transition. Gender dysphoria is a valid condition, and transition is valid and necessary medical treatment. According to Catholicism, altering the body is morally licit if it is a medical/therapeutical necessity. This is unproblematic. Anyone who claims anything else is wrong. But sadly, there are a lot of them  "

Hi Rina,
Thank you for your eloquent, lucid and concise explanation, I whole heartedly agree with you especially where you touch on what probably concerns us most. To reinforce your argument may I add the following as a reference to support your understanding of the Catholic Church position from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), which can be applied to us who are transgender or transsexual persons. 

CCC 2297..... Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

The language used may not be to our liking but it is clear, applied to Transgender and Transsexual persons this statement says what it means in regards to the suffering caused by unbearable gender dysphoria and corrected via a legitimate medically approved therapeutic surgical remedy.

For those who are not aware the CCC is the authoritative teaching document of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. 

Please God, with the above understanding many more of us who are greatly concerned by this issue will sleep more easily.

[Rina]

Thank you for pointing out the CCC reference - I was too lazy to find it when I wrote my post

The language used may not be to our liking

Yeah, this is a problem in modern society. Theological language (or curial language, as it's often called) has evolved to be very exact in describing moral and spiritual principles within the framework of Catholicism, but it is also far removed from daily speech. This opens up for a lot of misunderstandings, especially since few journalists are theologians. On several occasions, I see big headlines saying "The Pope said [insert crazy statement] about [insert topic]", then I think "this can't be right", check the actual statement, and see that what he said was the complete opposite of what was reported.

This is of course annoying, and the media could do a far better job, but then even most Catholics don't really understand curial language. The Church needs to realize that journalists are even less probable to understand it. Pope Francis seems to be getting it a bit more - I often have to laugh at how pp. Francis can say something that is virtually a quotation of pp. Benedict XVI, but in different terms, just to have the media report it as if they said completely opposite things. It is really ironic; their theology is more or less identical, but Francis is a better media person.

For those who are not aware the CCC is the authoritative teaching document of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

I just have to add here that while the Catechism is indeed authoritative as a reference work for theologians and priests (which is really what catechisms started out as), it is not authoritative in the sense that everything in it is dogma. It can (and probably does, as earlier revisions did - the first version of the new CCC was a mess, but the current revision is solid as far as I know) contain errors. That said, keeping this in mind, it is the best reference there is. Especially since it gives references to every statement, so one can easily check the original statements/documents/etc. and Scripture passages the teachings build upon.

[Satinjoy]

Oooff.  wow.  The law, the blood, the relationship with Jesus which is EVERYTHING to us, especially transgender...

I only know He saved my marrage, He knew I would be born transitioned (DES baby and yes its controversial but makes so much sense), He means everything for me, and He came to set us free from bondage and pain.

I rely on Christ for everything.  Everything I have is an answer to prayer.  Yes I believe in hell and I am sure there is a devil.  I have seen so many interventions, so many times scripture has proven out.

Do I think  Trans is sin?  Fruit of HRT:  Peace, freedom, end of decieving wife, end of decieving self, end of hiding, emotional stability instead of frequent outburst or driven nature to race, watch tv, do do do do anything to escape the pain...

Fruit of not being trans:  insanity.  Fear.

Scriptures-  get into the Greek and Hebrew first.  Get rid of spin or limitations of english.  Understand the debauchery of Rome, and the sin of Sodom - those folks would screw anything and tried to.  Thats not trans.  Not even gay.

We can drive ourselves insane sometimes in our great desire to please God by disecting scriptures.  It comes down to this for me, am I still able to pray and hear Him in my heart (yes- and sin separates from God so...)  If I was sitting with Him next to a fire eating fish with a bunch of wildheads about to turn the world upside down, what would He say to me?  How many have I helped by actually living this life experientially as opposed to a history lesson or a book of rules?  What have I done for Him?  I know what He did for me, he gave me a way off the planet when the day is done.

I love Christ.  His church is hurting.  They're people.  He is God.  He is our friend.

I believe strongly I was born trans, for a reason.  He would not ask me to go against my endocrine system and entire nervous system when it was created in a way that is different from the normies.  He will ask me how I used this difference to glorify Him.

And I will tell Him I posted of His love and His desire to reach our hearts and every heart on the planet.

Follow Him.  Love Him.  Embrace Him.  He helped me He will help you too if you seek His HEART.   And nothing can stand up to Him that is evil, and they sure won't lift up their arms and say "daddy pick me up I'm scared."  That's His heart for us.