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Can Trans-Christians Really Find That "Happy" Medium ?

Started by Anatta, January 17, 2014, 10:02:20 PM

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Anatta

Kia Ora,

Please excuse the intrusion of a non believer...But I have a question of which I think other trans-Christians who are 'struggling' might find the answer/s of interest...So................

"Can Trans-Christians Really Find That Happy Medium Between What's Written In The Scriptures And Self Acceptance ? " (Scriptures Often Quoted By Trans-Intolerant Christians To Justify Their Claim That Trans-People Are All Sinners)

I guess in a sense I would like to find out if you have finally been able to stop worrying about(taking to heart) what other Christians are saying about you and have managed to get on with living your life as a Christian...


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Brooke777

I'm probably going to get some backlash for this one, but I don't consider those who follow the levitical laws Christians. Christ came to fulfill the laws, and teach us how to truly honor God. Which is through love for everyone. Those who don't love everyone, and judge others are not Christians. Those are just my opinions.
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katiej

It wasn't too long ago that Christians used scripture to justify slavery.  And it's because they didn't take the time to understand the intent behind the verses they were using.  It's what they wanted to see.

Being Trans -- or LGBT or any kind -- is similarly opposed on what most think are scriptural grounds.  They're mistaken.  And IMO within a generation, the majority of Christians will have come around.

The abomination argument is a very easy one to win.  Although it's still very difficult to change someone's deeply held belief in one conversation.  I can hang with most people in a deep theological discussion of this issue, but that's not what really wins them over.  Most Christians won't change based on the "love everyone" argument either.  But after a solid Biblical case has been made, that's when "love everyone" and "don't judge others" are more effective.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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Brandon

Your making a generalization not all Christians are like that, And for the record a Christian means their just a believer it doesn't mean your nessicarily right with God, All lgbt seem to have this view that are Christians are homophobic or transphobic I don't really appreciate that, Besides I know plenty of Christiams who see this as a real medical conditiom, All my Christian friends see me as male regardless....... God looms at the heart, that dont mean sin all the time though.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Quote from: katiej on January 17, 2014, 11:18:01 PM
It wasn't too long ago that Christians used scripture to justify slavery.  And it's because they didn't take the time to understand the intent behind the verses they were using.  It's what they wanted to see.

Being Trans -- or LGBT or any kind -- is similarly opposed on what most think are scriptural grounds.  They're mistaken.  And IMO within a generation, the majority of Christians will have come around.

The abomination argument is a very easy one to win.  Although it's still very difficult to change someone's deeply held belief in one conversation.  I can hang with most people in a deep theological discussion of this issue, but that's not what really wins them over.  Most Christians won't change based on the "love everyone" argument either.  But after a solid Biblical case has been made, that's when "love everyone" and "don't judge others" are more effective.


Their is such thing as Sin though. Yes we are not God and he who is without sin cast the first stone but there is no denying that evil exist
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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katiej

Quote from: Brooke777 on January 17, 2014, 10:12:14 PM
I'm probably going to get some backlash for this one, but I don't consider those who follow the levitical laws Christians. Christ came to fulfill the laws, and teach us how to truly honor God. Which is through love for everyone. Those who don't love everyone, and judge others are not Christians. Those are just my opinions.

You're exactly right.  The Old Testament law was never meant for Gentiles.  It was for the defense of the burgeoning nation of Israel.  Their priorities were procreation, survival, and maintaining an identity separate from the other people groups in the region.  In that context, the laws make a lot of sense.

In Acts 15, the church leaders all got together to discuss what laws were important for new believers, and they could only come up with 4 things that were the same for everyone:

1 - stay away from idolotry
2 - no sex outside of marriage
3 - Don't eat blood (blood = life and is important to God)
4 - Don't eat meat that was strangled and not bled correctly (an issue of sanitation)

Everything else is between you and God.  If you need a list, perhaps you don't really have a relationship with God.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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TheNemo

I was actually raised as a Christian by a very religious family. I realized I was FTM when I was pretty young, and my religion was definitely a big part of finally accepting the fact that I was trans. But I actually remember a bible class teacher I had over 10 years ago, when I was in 2nd grade at a private elementary school, and he said, "To get into heaven, all you have to do is believe that Christ died for your sins. The bible is too difficult for humans to interpret 100% accurately about what is a sin and what's not." And then he explained that all sins, no matter how big or small, God considers them to be of the same importance (so, for instance, if I'm sinning by being trans, the 'Christians' ridiculing me for it are also sinning just as badly, because they're judging me.) This teacher used actual scriptures to prove this point, although I don't remember what they were anymore.

So anyway, it cancels itself out. If a person ridicules you on account of their religion considering it 'sinful,' they're sinning just as much as you're 'sinning' (which may not even be sinning; there's no substantial evidence in the bible that considers having a non-cisgender identity a sin. Most of the scriptures Christians use to ridicule me are taken entirely out of context and provide NO real proof; I studied this stuff for years in bible class and church as a kid, just trust me guys). Use this argument if a Christian ever has a problem with your gender identity; I've done it, and as long as you sound confident about making this point, it usually shuts them up  ;)

I'm not really a religious person anymore, but because of the way I was raised I still do identify with and believe the Christian ideals more than any other religion. So I found my "happy medium" by remembering that those who judge are sinning even worse than I am (if I'm sinning at all), and I do not fear hell because the Christian 'rule' to go to heaven is to believe Christ died for your sins. All other 'sins' are forgivable by God. So there you have it :P
--Nemo
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Sarah Louise

The Bible says, "ALL" have sinned, everyone.  And Christ is our Advocate.

If being trans is Sin, (and I'm not sure it is), Christ is our Advocate and if we have accepted Him, our sin is forgiven.  Now I have prayed about this and feel that God has answered me and that I am Safe in His arms.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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peky

Quote from: Anatta on January 17, 2014, 10:02:20 PM
Kia Ora,

Please excuse the intrusion of a non believer...But I have a question of which I think other trans-Christians who are 'struggling' might find the answer/s of interest...So................

"Can Trans-Christians Really Find That Happy Medium Between What's Written In The Scriptures And Self Acceptance ? " (Scriptures Often Quoted By Trans-Intolerant Christians To Justify Their Claim That Trans-People Are All Sinners)

I guess in a sense I would like to find out if you have finally been able to stop worrying about(taking to heart) what other Christians are saying about you and have managed to get on with living your life as a Christian...


Metta Zenda :)

That depends on whether or not you follow Jesus or Paul teachings.... and whether or not you belive in the absolute and infallible literal meaning of the old testament
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David27

Yes, but it depends on the people your around. I know Christians who are accepting, but I know way more Christians that are tolerant. The tolerant ones are the ones that say hate the sin love the sinner in one way or another. This is damaging to people because it creates the sense of being a second class Christian for LGBT people. This is why before starting transition I never said anything about my sexual orientation and why it was challenging to come out to certain people as trans*. This being said I don't think people change their beliefs from conversation, but more from personal relationships with people. For example KKK members that build relationships with black people tend to leave the KKK.

Personally my faith helped me with coming out as transgender and in many other places in my life. Scripture is something that is translated and interpreted, which means there is bound to be error in peoples understanding of gods message. I personally don't think that being GLBT is wrong, but other people do. The main issue is dealing with people who don't share your views and/or when they treat you poorly, which is an issue that people face in other areas in life.

TL:DR Being GLBT and Christian aren't mutually exclusive.
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Anatta

Kia Ora Brendon,

(And a big thanks to all who have commented so far)

I should point out, yes I'm fully aware that there are Cis-Trans-Friendly Christians who are tolerant and totally accepting of Trans-People and feel that trans-people are part of their god's creation and just as worthy of their god's love as any other Christian ...(In other words they think "Well it may not be my cup of tea-but who am I to judge!")

Where I used the term "Trans-Intolerant-Christians" it was meant to highlight the fact that some Cis-Christians are 'intolerant' but not  "all" Cis Christians share their views...

So I hope I've cleared this up...
___________________________________________________________________________________

I know that many trans-Christians are struggling to come to terms with their faith and much of their struggle is due to the views of some intolerant non-accepting Christians...And that some trans-Christians seem to have overcome this obstacle and manage to live a somewhat 'undisturbed' life, of which their responses/answers to the question posed in this thread may be the key that unlocks the door and set free those who are still struggling... (Some have developed a "Teflon Mind" when it comes to the negative comments directed at them-the comments just don't stick around causing a disturbance )

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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King Malachite

Quote from: Anatta on January 17, 2014, 10:02:20 PM
Kia Ora,

Please excuse the intrusion of a non believer...But I have a question of which I think other trans-Christians who are 'struggling' might find the answer/s of interest...So................

"Can Trans-Christians Really Find That Happy Medium Between What's Written In The Scriptures And Self Acceptance ? " (Scriptures Often Quoted By Trans-Intolerant Christians To Justify Their Claim That Trans-People Are All Sinners)

I guess in a sense I would like to find out if you have finally been able to stop worrying about(taking to heart) what other Christians are saying about you and have managed to get on with living your life as a Christian...


Metta Zenda :)

I think it's very possible to find that happy medium betwen being transgender and Christian.  I haven't met much opposition since I am not officially out yet, but I have come to a point where I have reconciled being transgender and Christian.  After studying the scriptures, I realized that being transgender isn't going to keep me out of heaven.
Feel the need to ask me something or just want to check out my blog?  Then click below:

http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,135882.0.html


"Sometimes you have to go through outer hell to get to inner heaven."

"Anomalies can make the best revolutionaries."
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peky

Quote from: Anatta on January 18, 2014, 01:33:18 PM

I should point out, yes I'm fully aware that there are Cis-Trans-Friendly Christians who are tolerant and totally accepting of Trans-People and feel that trans-people are part of their god's creation and just as worthy of their god's love as any other Christian ...(In other words they think "Well it may not be my cup of tea-but who am I to judge!")

Where I used the term "Trans-Intolerant-Christians" it was meant to highlight the fact that some Cis-Christians are 'intolerant' but not  "all" Cis Christians share their views...

So I hope I've cleared this up...
___________________________________________________________________________________

I know that many trans-Christians are struggling to come to terms with their faith and much of their struggle is due to the views of some intolerant non-accepting Christians...And that some trans-Christians seem to have overcome this obstacle and manage to live a somewhat 'undisturbed' life, of which their responses/answers to the question posed in this thread may be the key that unlocks the door and set free those who are still struggling... (Some have developed a "Teflon Mind" when it comes to the negative comments directed at them-the comments just don't stick around causing a disturbance )

Metta Zenda :)

Well said Annatta...and if I may add: your comment can be extended to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. We can find extreme intolerants types even among Buddhists!

Metta Peky :)
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katiej

Quote from: Anatta on January 18, 2014, 01:33:18 PM
I know that many trans-Christians are struggling to come to terms with their faith and much of their struggle is due to the views of some intolerant non-accepting Christians...And that some trans-Christians seem to have overcome this obstacle and manage to live a somewhat 'undisturbed' life, of which their responses/answers to the question posed in this thread may be the key that unlocks the door and set free those who are still struggling... (Some have developed a "Teflon Mind" when it comes to the negative comments directed at them-the comments just don't stick around causing a disturbance )

I think this is true for all trans people, Christian or otherwise.  Finding acceptance in society as a whole is very difficult for many of us, even when religion isn't an issue.  We even have trouble in the LGBT community sometimes.

And so that Teflon mind you mentioned is so important just to come to the point of self-acceptance.  What makes me sad is when finding that self-acceptance leads one to doubt and eventually leave Christianity because of the intolerance of misguided believers...many of whom are probably not true believers anyway.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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Brandon

Quote from: Trenton on January 18, 2014, 10:06:03 AM
Yes, but it depends on the people your around. I know Christians who are accepting, but I know way more Christians that are tolerant. The tolerant ones are the ones that say hate the sin love the sinner in one way or another. This is damaging to people because it creates the sense of being a second class Christian for LGBT people. This is why before starting transition I never said anything about my sexual orientation and why it was challenging to come out to certain people as trans*. This being said I don't think people change their beliefs from conversation, but more from personal relationships with people. For example KKK members that build relationships with black people tend to leave the KKK.

Personally my faith helped me with coming out as transgender and in many other places in my life. Scripture is something that is translated and interpreted, which means there is bound to be error in peoples understanding of gods message. I personally don't think that being GLBT is wrong, but other people do. The main issue is dealing with people who don't share your views and/or when they treat you poorly, which is an issue that people face in other areas in life.

TL:DR Being GLBT and Christian aren't mutually exclusive.



Well actually that's how God feels to, He hates the sins that we commit but he still loves us, There is also a reason why God labels some things as sins, And though no sin is greater there are abomination that which God despises which is different than your norm
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Anatta

Quote from: peky on January 18, 2014, 06:08:47 PM
Well said Annatta...and if I may add: your comment can be extended to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. We can find extreme intolerants types even among Buddhists!

Metta Peky :)

Kia Ora Peky,

Thanks....
That's true...At times Buddhists can be Buddhists by name(only) but not by nature...And as we all know this also applies to other religious/spiritual groups...

However Peky, this is in the Christian section for a reason...Christianity seems to be the religion of which the majority of religious/spiritual trans-members associate with...

I'm here to learn more about their coping mechanisms/strategies and hopefully the comments in this thread will help those who are struggling...

Quote from: katiej on January 18, 2014, 06:44:06 PM
I think this is true for all trans people, Christian or otherwise.  Finding acceptance in society as a whole is very difficult for many of us, even when religion isn't an issue.  We even have trouble in the LGBT community sometimes.

And so that Teflon mind you mentioned is so important just to come to the point of self-acceptance.  What makes me sad is when finding that self-acceptance leads one to doubt and eventually leave Christianity because of the intolerance of misguided believers...many of whom are probably not true believers anyway.


Kia ora Katie,

It's true some do become quite dissatisfied with/disgruntled by the treatment they receive from fellow Christians in the congregation and leave the fold...Quite often they start to question their god's existence and become somewhat atheistic in their outlook...

Not that there's anything wrong with atheism (I'm an atheist ) but this does not stop me from caring about those members for whom Christianity has been a big part of their lives and their once held beliefs are now gradually being squeezed out of them by pressure to conform or (for want of a better term) burn in hell...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Vicky

There is actually a Gospel passage where Jesus has commissioned 70 missionaries to go out to towns around, and Jesus specifically gave instructions on how they were to behave.  If they were rejected by the locality, they were to leave, and "Shake the dust of the town off your feet" and wiggle their fannies on to some other town.  The story says that they all returned pretty darned happy, so I believe they all found acceptance some where, if not everywhere. 

The subject of acceptance in my life began with something other than my GD, although I now know it was working there too.  50 years ago at age 16 I found myself totally unable to take the Bible literally.  I love the Bible and have read it through several times in several versions but it is a story of men searching for Right Relations with a deity who can keep a whole world of people together in  spiritual harmony.  Political harmony will follow naturally to spiritual harmony.  I know that may sound like a ton of other religious teaching, but to me it does end up with that goal.  Taken with a bit of ancient history from non Christian Church sources, the so called clobber passages thrown out by non-Trans*/GLB -tolerant folks, these were religious practices of other religions in the neighborhood and Jews and later Christians, wanted to keep their worship practices and their adherents out of the bad stuff the church on the other side of town did. The passages did not have a relationship to the home-life of Christians, only the public worship life.

To me, my non-literalistic views have lead me to find that my being Trans* gives me a spiritual view that Cis Folk cannot have, and I have developed a peacefulness with that thought.  I am a practicing member of a major U.S. church whose Constitution & Canons say that I as Trans* am welcome in all areas of the church life and ministry.  My views are free to be spoken and my spiritual experiences will be listened to without condemnation.  I shook dust from another spiritual community off my feet half a century ago. 
I refuse to have a war of wits with a half armed opponent!!

Wiser now about Post Op reality!!
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JLT1

There is no conflict between my faith and my being what I am and becoming what I will be. 

Read the biblical arguments made against us in using a Hebrew:English of Greek:English interlinear bible.  I do not depend on someone else's translation. That changed things for me.

Hugs,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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katiej

Quote from: Vicky on January 18, 2014, 08:22:10 PM
Taken with a bit of ancient history from non Christian Church sources, the so called clobber passages thrown out by non-Trans*/GLB -tolerant folks, these were religious practices of other religions in the neighborhood and Jews and later Christians, wanted to keep their worship practices and their adherents out of the bad stuff the church on the other side of town did. The passages did not have a relationship to the home-life of Christians, only the public worship life.

This is really important.  The historical context of and purpose for the Old Testament law is misunderstood by the vast majority of Christians. And perhaps the biggest issue they miss is that it was never meant for non-Jews.  Acts 15 confirms that following the law (including the clobber passages in Leviticus) is not important for new believers.

The really savvy Christians will know to pull out Romans 1, but it's pretty easy to knock over that argument as well.

What bothers me is that the same person who uses the abomination passages on us has no problem with eating shrimp, slandering, and his wife wearing pants...those are all listed abominations as well.  So really, those who use those passages are just cherry-picking verses to justify their world view.  Because clearly they don't follow the whole thing themselves, they only require us to conform to those few verses.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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Brandon

Quote from: katiej on January 19, 2014, 02:22:24 PM
This is really important.  The historical context of and purpose for the Old Testament law is misunderstood by the vast majority of Christians. And perhaps the biggest issue they miss is that it was never meant for non-Jews.  Acts 15 confirms that following the law (including the clobber passages in Leviticus) is not important for new believers.

The really savvy Christians will know to pull out Romans 1, but it's pretty easy to knock over that argument as well.

What bothers me is that the same person who uses the abomination passages on us has no problem with eating shrimp, slandering, and his wife wearing pants...those are all listed abominations as well.  So really, those who use those passages are just cherry-picking verses to justify their world view.  Because clearly they don't follow the whole thing themselves, they only require us to conform to those few verses.







Umm actually your suppose to read the old tesament, And your only suppose to read KJV, Another Christian hasn't really knocked me down, I think some people around me do see it as a medical problem and that is long as I stay in God they can't judge, Not saying homosexuality is wrong or anything sin is sin, Even if it is bad to be gay, I don't nessicarily think it should be considered a sin but hey..... I can't tell God what to do neither can you. We fail to realize that sin and evil is real, If you believe in God and their being good then please explain to me how the devil is not real or evil.......
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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