The first topic for discussion....

[Susan]

The philosopher Simone de Beauvoir (1908-1986) said "One is not born a woman, one becomes one."

[Pica Pica]

Yeah, but she was impressed by Satre what does she know

But she is right, though I think only in the way continental philosophy is ever right. In stating the obvious.

A woman is a grown female adult, it includes a lot of learning, maybe that learning is based on inbuilt knowledge similar to the theory of deep grammar, that a female is born with the essential grammar of femininity which is then learnt and refined through childhood to become a woman.

But that is still not much more than saying an adult is a child who has lived a bit longer and learned a bit more.


So I suppose it could be said a transsexual individual had the wrong internal grammar for the life lessons they were expected to learn.

And an androgyne no grammar at all (?) That an androgyne is always a child gender-wise, so a child androgyne and an adult androgyne are in a gender sense the same, it is not that there is no term for a child androgyne, but that there is no term for an adult one.

[lilith]

Or maybe people are just people, some of which have statistical predispositions to certain behaviors, who nevertheless tend to be shaped mostly by the coaxing of those around them to conform to various ideals somehow associated with physical traits.

[Hypatia]

A woman is a grown female adult, it includes a lot of learning, maybe that learning is based on inbuilt knowledge similar to the theory of deep grammar, that a female is born with the essential grammar of femininity which is then learnt and refined through childhood to become a woman.

That's a neat way to look at it. Chomsky's theory of deep grammar is supposed to describe universals of grammar underlying all languages, however divergent on the surface. Likewise, to follow this train of thought, do you suppose that all gender expressions in all their diversity might come from a single universal deep grammar?

Or maybe people are just people

[katia]

The philosopher Simone de Beauvoir (1908-1986) said "One is not born a woman, one becomes one."

depends, did she mean biologically or culturally? i suppose either case the answer is "yes" since this isn't a statement on gender but all about behavior & maturity.

[Elizabeth]

I am not sure is we are discussing the philosophy of women in general, or if we are discussing this one phrase. I mean, no one is born a woman. A woman is an adult female. I am not sure if she was being literal, in the sense that the life experience of a female is what makes her a woman, or if she was referring to her own feminist views.

Because the social roles of women are different around the world, depending on the culture, it's easy to see her argument. On the other hand, the natural instinct of a woman to have an care for children can not be denied by anyone that has witnessed it. Just as children we were amazed to watch the mother cat care for her kittens or dog care for her puppies, human females are no different in this regard. I remember wondering how that cat that we got as a kitten, knew what to do? It certainly was not learned behavior.

So, perhaps in the context of her own political and philosophical views, one is not born a woman. However, as far as the instinctual part, well that is prewired in the brain. Just as a woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have, she is also born with a certain part of her womanhood.

I guess the only mind experiment we might perform is to ask, are there females that do not become women? It's kinda like saying, no insects are born butterflies, they become butterflies. Indeed, but they are also all predetermined to do so.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Shana A]

I just realized that this new section exists  I'm very interested in this idea of gender as essential grammar, it makes sense to me as I knew from childhood that I was different but didn't have words or cultural context with which to express who I was. I've often felt that I had to create the language from scratch to describe my gender reality, as an understanding of people outside a binary gender doesn't exist in the society where I live. Looking at it this way, I was not simply born as a transgender or androgyne person, but over the years have created myself from the initial feeling.

I mentioned this in another topic and think it relates to this discussion. Many traditional societies recognized and had specific roles for gender variant people. I've read about a native American ceremony in which a child is sitting with two gender oriented objects placed in front of them, perhaps it's a basket and a bow. If the child is male bodied and chooses the item associated with women, zie will be raised in the feminine role and marry a man, likewise if the child is female bodied and chooses the male item, zie will go out hunting with the men and marry a woman. In those cultures, there was/is a grammar for gender variance. Perhaps someday our society will also understand that language.

zythyra

[Thundra]

Females are born, women are made.

Women that transition have a hard road with no one to nurture them in most cases.
Tis a troubling teenage time for most ~ hard enough to grow up into a woman when the body does what we expect it to do naturally. Harder still when she must endure the hardships of transitioning.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a dearth of female roll models and mentors, and a veritable plethora of people willing to snipe on and obfuscate one another in the same community. It's a wonder then, that as many make it thru the gauntlet as they do.

If female is nature, than woman is nurture. Being born female is something that you have happen to you ~ being a woman is a process that you willingly engage in.

[Leslie_Taylor]

And an androgyne no grammar at all (?) That an androgyne is always a child gender-wise, so a child androgyne and an adult androgyne are in a gender sense the same, it is not that there is no term for a child androgyne, but that there is no term for an adult one.

Considering androgynes flucuate between male and female would it not be better to say they've been all the grammar lessons - for example, a transexual may have just had the wrong undergraduate grammer, but the androgyne was given a phd in grammar. I'm not sure thats as clear as I'd like it to be but i hope you can get my point.

[Seshatneferw]

for example, a transexual may have just had the wrong undergraduate grammer, but the androgyne was given a phd in grammar.

I was.

Seriously, though, there are different kinds of people who are labelled as androgyne. There are clearly bigendered ones, pretty much analogous to bilingual. Then there are those who discard gender entirely: call them autistic if you will. Also, there are the mixed gender ones, who have their own pidgin of the two genders. Plus likely a bunch of others as well.

  Nfr

[Janis]

Ancient philosopher once said, "person who thinks to hard at one thing will become the other".

Maybe that's what happened to me.

[Hypatia]

Ancient philosopher once said, "person who thinks to hard at one thing will become the other".

Maybe that's what happened to me.

Could you elaborate on that, Janis?

[Janis]

Ancient philosopher once said, "person who thinks to hard at one thing will become the other".

Maybe that's what happened to me.

Could you elaborate on that, Janis?

It was just my way of saying that while I'm not that great at advanced
philosophical thought, I have pondered this topic my whole life and after reading Camille Paglia's Sexual Personae cover to cover about four times I have come to the conclusion that even if I had a perfect answer in place I would
still split hairs over it.

But I have to go with my current conclusion that biological female features are physical only and everything else is formed by an individual thumbprint instinct to express and live out ones life as truthfully as possible regardless of cultural gender definitions.

I just would like to know how far reaching the instinct is and where is it's origin.

Also  I would like to say that these replys to Susan's topic are fantastic and they
did spur me to split a few more hairs.

[Dante]

Ancient philosopher once said, "person who thinks to hard at one thing will become the other".

Maybe that's what happened to me.

Could you elaborate on that, Janis?

But I have to go with my current conclusion that biological female features are physical only and everything else is formed by an individual thumbprint instinct to express and live out ones life as truthfully as possible regardless of cultural gender definitions.

An interesting thought. I guess in my case it would be the other way around, (since I'm FTM) but it grounds my thoughts.