"God's Not Dead" Movie

[Colleen M]

Anna,

All right, I'm going to bite. 
On what basis of evidence are you so adamant about that?

I am truly curious, as I've seen several of your posts regarding spirituality and you are very absolute in your conviction.  To me, it requires faith to believe in god, and also to not believe in god.

I'm gently wading into things here as this is one of those things that can lead to heated debate...

This gets us away from the movie, but I may have an analogy which might shed some light on the difference   

Some people are fans of sports teams.  They generally grew up as fans of that team, they have an emotional investment in that team, they know the ins and outs of the history.  They watch "their" team play, um, religiously.  They refer to the team as "we."  They have emotional highs and lows from their sports team which are really hard to explain based on the visible impact on their lives.  They spend money on gear, they go see games, etc., and they *know* their team will win each game because they have faith that it will happen.       

Now, some other people bet on sporting events.  They really don't care who wins or loses generally as the bet is usually against a "spread" and they worry more about the final score matching up with what they expected it to be, or with some "proposition" bets for particular events happening in a game.  There may be odds on winners of tournaments (Michael Stich bettors got paid at 200:1 for his Wimbledon win in 1990, for example) or whatever.  They get excited when they're going to make money, they get unhappy when they realize they're going to lose money, but other than how it impacts their wallet they simply don't care who wins and who loses.  They have made a rational assessment of what they expect to happen based on the facts as they understand them, and their bank accounts will reflect how good they are at this assessment, but fandom is not a part of their calculus.  They've made their call based on winning streaks, losing streaks, hot players, cold players, injury reports, weather forecasts, and yes, the odd coin flip or gut feeling, but ultimately it's not about who they have *faith* will win, it's about who they *expect* to win based on how well they understand the facts.   

There are also fans who bet, and that is hard to make money doing.

Now, is either group necessarily right?  That's another question.  The guy with his entire house decorated in team colors and the guy who can't pay his rent due to bad bets may each have problems suggesting it's possible for each group to be wrong.  And I'm not trying to compare any given religion to, say, Manchester United here, I just want to try to draw a parallel on human capacities for decision making on the same subject coming from completely different directions and having trouble understanding that the other group really doesn't share any of the same metrics for decision making.  To continue the analogy, it's worth pointing out that the bettor is not a "fan" of Las Vegas in any way the team fan understands the term, particularly as Vegas doesn't even have a team; he just likes evaluating the odds and placing bets to see if he's right.  Sometimes the bettors need to be reminded that the fans aren't in it for the money and that following a team in a rebuilding cycle with better days ahead isn't a statement on intelligence.  Again, hopefully not drawing parallels on religions, just on how humans interact with the world and each other.   

Does that make any sense without being offensive, or do I need to just accept that I'm tired and go to bed?             

[luna nyan]

Colleen,

I don't care about which sports team people root for. 
But having read some of Anna's previous posts, and her views regarding the religious, I'm genuinely curious.

I have no qualms regarding someone's position on spirituality.  But the dismissive tone I read in some posts, I do really wish to know how someone arrives to that point.  I honestly respect others point of view and merely wish to know and understand. 

[Colleen M]

Don't worry about the sports teams part as such, just work with me for the analogy on the bettors thinking the fans are suckers rooting for a (currently) losing team while the fans are convinced the bettors really are rooting for somebody as a small-scale analogy of how atheists and theists view the same world.  I'm trying to find a medium to make the point that atheism is by definition the absence of faith; although by custom often the rejection.  There is much truth to the observation that atheism is a faith like "bald" is a hair color. 

Frankly, there really are places to legitimately outright attack certain religious views.  OTOH. the spirituality forum on a transgender resource site IMO is the kind of place to actually show even more respect for differing opinions than we might genuinely feel.  I am saddened (and candidly I do see why) you'd feel a dismissive tone in some posts and I'm trying in my own (admittedly sleepy) way to try to offer a view of the other side of the equation as I do feel part of the problem is that both sides have situations where they look at the other's position and truthfully say, "I know those words...but that makes no sense whatsoever."  Where atheists often are utterly baffled by faith and are fundamentally unable to square the circle on the other side's leap of faith, theists frequently have a corresponding inability to really grasp that atheism genuinely is the absence of something they consider a core element of the human condition.  It's been failed often enough by people smarter than I that I figured it was worth a longshot analogy to try to bridge the gap from my side. 

And if I'm completely open, I absolutely cannot wrap my head around why people have faith, so it's not like I've got a working example of how to build that bridge from either side.          

[Illuminess]

I remember now why I didn't go see the movie. I felt quite repulsed that a teacher would decide pass or fail just on his personal belief system. I was triggered by the movie's  basic unethical presumption of right and wrong.

That's a typical view of Atheists; that they don't believe because they hate God due to some personal issue, and then behave irrationally when challenged. That's never been my experience, and that's why both Christians and Atheists should criticize the film without restraint.

[Illuminess]

Colleen,

I don't care about which sports team people root for. 
But having read some of Anna's previous posts, and her views regarding the religious, I'm genuinely curious.

I have no qualms regarding someone's position on spirituality.  But the dismissive tone I read in some posts, I do really wish to know how someone arrives to that point.  I honestly respect others point of view and merely wish to know and understand. 

I think it all comes down to personal experience and possibly even upbringing. I like to think my spirituality has evolved beyond religious dogma. My idea of God has expanded past mythos and into the mystic. I think that's why modern day religion often falls short; they've completely removed the mystic element in favor of patriarchal doctrine. Once upon a time, the goddess was just as important as the god, but now she's just been reduced to a submissive avatar or completely removed. So it's no wonder a lot of people have lost interest.

[luna nyan]

There is much truth to the observation that atheism is a faith like "bald" is a hair color. 

Frankly, there really are places to legitimately outright attack certain religious views.  OTOH. the spirituality forum on a transgender resource site IMO is the kind of place to actually show even more respect for differing opinions than we might genuinely feel.  I am saddened (and candidly I do see why) you'd feel a dismissive tone in some posts...

And if I'm completely open, I absolutely cannot wrap my head around why people have faith, so it's not like I've got a working example of how to build that bridge from either side.        

Quoting a few of your points here.

Faith by definition is complete trust or confidence in someone or something (check the dictionary,!).  By definition, an atheist has unwavering faith there is no god.  If you did not have this faith, then you would have to concede there is the possibility of a god.  Can we agree on that? 

Personally, I am in a good place mentally and spiritually.  But there are many here who are not, and it truly upsets me when some trample on all that is left for some, and call them stupid, or ignorant. When you are clinging to your life by a thread and someone is trying their best to shred that thread as you reach out...

Heaven forbid that one of our posts leads someone to end it all.

We need to better than that on a support site, and implore people to think twice and be gracious before posting.

Back on your post.  Personally, I could not eliminate the possibility of the existence of god, and that was from rational argument.  I would suspect that you have your rational basis for the opposite.  This ultimately then delves into the realms of philosophy, and would be outside of the constraints set by this thread. 

As a background, yes, I am scientifically trained, and no, I do not find that science clashes with my faith, in fact, it does the opposite, it enhances it.

[Jessica Merriman]

That's a typical view of Atheists; that they don't believe because they hate God due to some personal issue, and then behave irrationally when challenged.

Tread softly or this will be locked. It has been allowed to continue even though there is no trans component. No more leeway will be given so let's not generalize statements.

[luna nyan]

Tread softly or this will be locked. It has been allowed to continue even though there is no trans component. No more leeway will be given so let's not generalize statements.

Media like this sort of movie is for stirring up trouble.  Either for or against, it'll bring out the torches and pitchforks. 

[Jessica Merriman]

Media like this sort of movie is for stirring up trouble.  Either for or against, it'll bring out the torches and pitchforks. 

Very true, but our members are our primary concern and topics like this just divide us instead of bringing us together. There is already enough pain here. 

[luna nyan]

Very true, but our members are our primary concern and topics like this just divide us instead of bringing us together. There is already enough pain here. 

Agreed.

Hence my plea for respect.

[Illuminess]

It really stings when someone assumes I'm trying to cause trouble, because that's not what I'm about. I'm pretty opinionated, but I'm not about making personal attacks. I only criticise what I observe to be intolerant or insane behaviour no matter who is behind it. If it's not typical to assume atheists are emotionally damaged, then why is it a recurring issue? I'm not about to defend oppressive behaviour just because someone decides to take offense to something. We're adults and we should be capable of dealing with everything maturely and without extreme bias.

Anyway, I think this post stimulated some great responses. I'd like to see more, but I will gladly back out of this if my character continues to be seen as suspect.

[Illuminess]

I said earlier that I didn't realize this part of the forum was still trans focused. I thought it was a place for off-topic discussion. I wasn't trying to defy the rules. If you want to lock it that's fine. It was an issue I wanted to get some thoughts on, and I did.

[luna nyan]

If it's not typical to assume atheists are emotionally damaged, then why is it a recurring issue?

Anyway, I think this post stimulated some great responses. I'd like to see more, but I will gladly back out of this if my character continues to be seen as suspect.

You are alluding to stereotype here in one brushstroke.  Causality of a few losing their faith (which is what I think you are alluding to here) to turn atheist, does not mean that all atheists are people traumatised or disillusioned with their previous faith.

Most atheists I know are intelligent, well balanced individuals, and some of the, are amongst my best friends.  I would feel offended for them it someone called them emotionally damaged!  There are many reasons why one would be atheist, and equally as many to be a theist.

[luna nyan]

I said earlier that I didn't realize this part of the forum was still trans focused. I thought it was a place for off-topic discussion. I wasn't trying to defy the rules. If you want to lock it that's fine. It was an issue I wanted to get some thoughts on, and I did.

If you read through topics, you'll find most posts are in regard to reconciling ones belief system and being transgender.  Or alternatively, what position some subsections of ones belief system has on LGBT matters.

Hence the subsections.

I'm happy to take this to PM and philosophise with you.  Anyone is actually, as I do enjoy a good civilised chat. 

[Jess42]

I can see both sides. I could very well be an atheist. I think it all boils down to our perceptions and life experiences. I choose to believe in something greater than ourselves. Being trans got me delving deeper into philosophical questions but it just as easily could have let me not think there is more. I have delved into the mystic side of Christianity and the Gnostic texts which go into much greater detail than the normal accepted books of the New Testament. And possibly why they were left out of the new Testament.

sororcaeli, I definately agree with you on the mysticism aspects.

[Illuminess]

You are alluding to stereotype here in one brushstroke.  Causality of a few losing their faith (which is what I think you are alluding to here) to turn atheist, does not mean that all atheists are people traumatised or disillusioned with their previous faith.

Most atheists I know are intelligent, well balanced individuals, and some of the, are amongst my best friends.  I would feel offended for them it someone called them emotionally damaged!  There are many reasons why one would be atheist, and equally as many to be a theist.

See, you've misinterpreted me. Let me try to break it down:

The portrayal of the atheist professor in the movie was as someone who was broken by a past experience that led him to atheism. In the movie they make atheism out to be an excuse based on emotional trauma that is being masked with intellect, and in my experience this tends to be the way a lot (not all) of Christians see atheists. They create this false access route for themselves by assuming the person really isn't atheist and just hates God so that they can reason away trying to save them. And since not all Christians are like this it not only paints atheism in a shoddy light, but also Christians.

So, I was never generalizing on anyone, or trying to pigeonhole one belief or the other. I'm saying that the whole message of the movie was preposterous and unfair as if they were trying to speak for every Christian.

I think the discussion of "is there or isn't there a god" is valid, to an extent, but things like that movie try far too hard to make arguments that aren't based in reality. Maybe there are some cases where trauma leads someone to atheism, but I'm sure you know that's far from the case overall. Plus, I don't think a lot of people even know what atheism really means. It's not the disbelief in the God of Abraham; it's the disbelief in any deity of any mythos. One can be atheist and yet still find spirituality, or even consider a more pantheistic view.

I know that this post has nothing to do with trans issues directly, but the theme of misrepresentation and assumption can certainly apply. Just look at Rad-Fem blogs and articles and how they just assume all trans women are men with a fetish and an agenda. Whatever the social matter is we never seem to snap out of the mentality of Us vs. Them. My whole motive is to bring together apparently opposing sides so that maybe together we all can come to some common ground instead of going at each other's throats.

There's not enough mediation in the world. We just turn our eyes, put our fingers in our ears, and hope for the best. I can't do that. I have to be active. Our skulls aren't there just to form our pretty faces. It holds a brain, and the brain is where we find the ability to reason and the ability to love. It's the host to our consciousness, and consciousness has no gender, no religion, no desire to outwit others. It's the commonality that links us all, but we're all too busy being defensive.

[Jessica Merriman]

It's the commonality that links us all, but we're all too busy being defensive.

You have to realize that for some people all they have in this world is their faith. They may have no home, income or anything else. When people try to take that away then yes, people become defensive because it is all that is holding them up. Would you rather have a live person with faith or one who self terminates because their system of belief is removed leaving them with no hope? Expressions and views of faith are OK, but trying to disprove or belittle one is not. I am NOT saying that is what you are trying to do. Let me repeat that, I am NOT saying that is what you are trying to do. People's faith and beliefs should not be questioned or rationalized, it should be left to the individual to be comfortable with themselves and believe how they wish. Some have found great strength in the movie, some have not. An opinion on it is OK and that is what communication is about. The trouble starts when some try to disprove another's belief system or say the movie has no value when to some it does.

[Illuminess]

I'd like to say I have faith in humanity, but today I have more faith in garden weeds. I'm a very passionate person, and sometimes it overflows. It just makes me ill how we're still perpetuating the same old primitive attitude towards those who think or believe differently. Even when there's biological evidence for it people are still immovable. So, all that I know to do is to stimulate discussion and to break down the walls. It's uncomfortable, but what's right is never easy.

[Jessica Merriman]

Even when there's biological evidence for it people are still immovable.

This is why people get offended. Faith is NOT about biological evidence, it is about belief and what gives a person peace of mind and soul. I do not agree with many religious or faith systems, but I let them be because it provides them with happiness. I do not try to disprove it or denounce it. I do not agree at all that one should question others beliefs or have uncomfortable discussions about it. Uncomfortable discussions usually means you do not agree and are trying to disprove. There is no reason to attempt to do this. Have your beliefs and let others have theirs without interference. That is called respect. 

[stephaniec]

kind of confused about the statement biological evidence. what, that god does or doesn't exist