Transwomen with Beards

[RebeccaFog]

   I don't see why we shouldn't take them seriously.  A person is a person.  Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don't appear to make sense of others.

   I think the polite thing would be to just ask the person.  How do you identify?  And then treat them according to their answer.  I don't see why you also couldn't just ask about the inconsistent presentation in a tactful way.
   Maybe they aren't MtF, but an androgyne.  Someone who mixes up their gender expression.  If that is true, however, I would suggest they use the men's room.  I understand how difficult it is for some people to accept the concept of androgyne and, it's pretty obvious the idea of a 'man' in a women's room makes women uncomfortable.

   I guess I'm saying if the plumbing matches what the beard represents, the person should defer to tradition.  In a case such as this.  Usually, I'd say let them do whatever, but, let's face it, public restrooms are separate for a reason.

[Dorothy]

   I dont see why we shouldn\'t take them seriously.  A person is a person.  Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don\'t appear to make sense of others.

A person is a person.  But not every person is a woman.  If he wants society to treat him like a woman, then he should present as what society considers to be a woman.  If not, he has no right to throw a fit.


   

[Shana A]

society wont just change because you want it to.

And it certainly won't change if we just roll over and let things stay as they always have been, wrong or right. Might as well try to change the world for the better during our time on the planet. Otherwise, we have learned bupkis, nada, nothing, from our own experiences. I don't know all the circumstances in this hypothetical or real situation, but what I do know is that I respect a person's right to self identity, regardless of how she looks on the exterior.

Zythyra

[Tay]

   I dont see why we shouldn\'t take them seriously.  A person is a person.  Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don\'t appear to make sense of others.

A person is a person.  But not every person is a woman.  If he wants society to treat him like a woman, then he should present as what society considers to be a woman.  If not, he has no right to throw a fit.


   

Okay.  Instead, she should be sent to an insane asylum or the circus freak show.

Bull. 

People are NOT stereotypes and should be given the respect and dignity of being treated like individuals.

Do you know if this person has a familial or religious tradition standing in their way?  Or if this person has a good reason to grow a beard?  Or if this person may have a medical reason to do so?

You do not know. 

I do not act like either a boy or a girl most of the time.  Which is fine.  But sometimes, I do act more femininely or masculinely than other times.  Should I be denied my identity as an androgyne?

[melissa90299]

society wont just change because you want it to.

And it certainly won't change if we just roll over and let things stay as they always have been, wrong or right. Might as well try to change the world for the better during our time on the planet. Otherwise, we have learned bupkis, nada, nothing, from our own experiences. I don't know all the circumstances in this hypothetical or real situation, but what I do know is that I respect a person's right to self identity, regardless of how she looks on the exterior.

Zythyra

Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.

[Rachael]

tay, you dont have facial hair, being acepted as either gender is very easy to people as you can look like either or neither, a woman with a full beard is just a MALE sign permanetly there. and its not going to win them any favours.
plus this person identifys as FEMALE, not androgyne, females dont have beards, society doesnt accept a beard as part of a woman. end of.

R

[melissa90299]

   I dont see why we shouldn\'t take them seriously.  A person is a person.  Some people are eccentric or they go through phases of self discovery that don\'t appear to make sense of others.

A person is a person.  But not every person is a woman.  If he wants society to treat him like a woman, then he should present as what society considers to be a woman.  If not, he has no right to throw a fit.


   

Okay.  Instead, she should be sent to an insane asylum or the circus freak show.

Bull. 

People are NOT stereotypes and should be given the respect and dignity of being treated like individuals.

Do you know if this person has a familial or religious tradition standing in their way?  Or if this person has a good reason to grow a beard?  Or if this person may have a medical reason to do so?

You do not know. 

There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one? What possible medical reason could there be for growing a beard? I have never heard of such a thing. In all due respect, you are grasping at straws.

If I run across this guy in one of my groups, I am going to assume I know nothing (I really don't, all I know is hearsay) and ask him what he is doing here (at a woman's only meeting)

[Rachael]

yes, if the person transitions to female, the male wearing a beard rule goes out the window, THIER FEMALE...

[RebeccaFog]

Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.

   Has anyone spoken to this person?  Maybe they can explain it.
   As Tay said, it's possible that there is a valid reason for the beard.
   Maybe it's just somebody performing a social experiment for a thesis or something.  If you find that out then you just say "stop it. you're making everyone uncomfortable".

   Maybe the person was brutalized by men earlier in their life.  They may be entirely messed up and in need of a place of safety.

[Tay]

There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?

Actually, I was thinking that a person may have responsibilities related to family and religion from their pre-transition time.

What possible medical reason could there be for growing a beard? I have never heard of such a thing.

My father has a medical condition (well, had one, anyway) that caused his hairs to grow in in little curls under the skin on his face.  He is military and thus expected to be cleanshaven.  For part of my childhood, he had a full beard, with medical dispensation to do so.  He could not have his beard lasered or electro-d until such time as it had grown in so that the hairs wouldn't be under his skin.  He had to take antibiotics and stuff while it was growing in and there was a chance all along that he would have to have a full beard for the rest of his life.

In all due respect, you are grasping at straws.

No.  I'm considering that people are individuals, not stereotypes, something too many people fail to recognise.

If I run across this guy in one of my groups, I am going to assume I know nothing (I really don't, all I know is hearsay) and ask him what he is doing here (at a woman's only meeting)

Ah, respect.  Something too many people expect and take for granted, but fail to actually give.

[Shana A]

Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.

Melissa,

As I said, I respect any person's right to identify how they choose. I also understand that the person's choice to not conform to current gender binary standards can make things difficult, even if I don't agree with those standards. Regarding the situation that you first asked about hypothetically, and now have said is real, I don't know enough information about the types of events and or spaces they wish to have access. Sounds like a difficult situation for you to deal with, perhaps you can talk with her about it? That might be the best approach.

There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?

Not for a female, however there are religions or sects that don't allow a male to shave their beard. Orthodox Judaism for one. Perhaps some Muslim as well? So if the person was early in transition, and still living part time as male, that could be reason for not shaving off the beard.

Zythyra

[Tay]

tay, you dont have facial hair, being acepted as either gender is very easy to people as you can look like either or neither, a woman with a full beard is just a MALE sign permanetly there. and its not going to win them any favours.
plus this person identifys as FEMALE, not androgyne, females dont have beards, society doesnt accept a beard as part of a woman. end of.

R

The point of me asking was that I act in manners that are very masculine or very feminine sometimes.  Does this make me a non-androgyne?

Likewise, if a transwoman does something that is non-feminine, does this make her a man?

If this were a conversation about being a nascar driver, you'd all be rooting her on.  But because it is about facial hair, you're calling her a man?

[RebeccaFog]

There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one? What possible medical reason could there be for growing a beard? I have never heard of such a thing. In all due respect, you are grasping at straws.

If I run across this guy in one of my groups, I am going to assume I know nothing (I really don't, all I know is hearsay) and ask him what he is doing here (at a woman's only meeting)

  I am male bodied.  i am bald.  i try to dress neutral, but I look totally male to people.  However, i am a part of an LBT women's support group.  The women know that I am not transitioning and that I identify as androgyne.  When I decided to not transition to female, I asked if they wanted me to go, but they said I could stay.  They accept me as part of the group and even refer to me as 'Becky'.

I don't know if it's fair to exclude a person from a group they may identify with.  Maybe the person is newly self discovered trans and has no idea of how to go about carrying themself.  Maybe they really are androgyne.  I consider myself fortunate that the women have kept me.
I have to say that the gay men also offered me a place, but I am not male except in body.  I identify as female although I am not entirely female otherwise I would have transitioned.

   I have a new theory about myself but this is not the place.

[melissa90299]

Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.

Melissa,

As I said, I respect any person's right to identify how they choose. I also understand that the person's choice to not conform to current gender binary standards can make things difficult, even if I don't agree with those standards. Regarding the situation that you first asked about hypothetically, and now have said is real, I don't know enough information about the types of events and or spaces they wish to have access. Sounds like a difficult situation for you to deal with, perhaps you can talk with her about it? That might be the best approach.

There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?

Not for a female, however there are religions or sects that don't allow a male to shave their beard. Orthodox Judaism for one. Perhaps some Muslim as well? So if the person was early in transition, and still living part time as male, that could be reason for not shaving off the beard.

Zythyra

Now you are grasping at straws, if this person is female, there is no religious obligation to wear a beard.

[Sophia]

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

I would probably be grossed out as I find facial hair on women to be extraordinarily unattractive. But the fact remains that bearded ladies do exist and are still women. So I wouldn't be a jerk to her, I'd probably just keep my distance to avoid the gag reflex.

[Christo]

  cant hurt to like people for what they are.  I'm a man.  dont have no facial hair.  it means I'm no man?  we gotta understand no judge.

[Tay]

Everyone has a right to their own self-identity but this person is asking to be accepted as a woman when nothing he says or does indicates there is anything about him that is female and he also wants to be granted access to women's only spaces.

Melissa,

As I said, I respect any person's right to identify how they choose. I also understand that the person's choice to not conform to current gender binary standards can make things difficult, even if I don't agree with those standards. Regarding the situation that you first asked about hypothetically, and now have said is real, I don't know enough information about the types of events and or spaces they wish to have access. Sounds like a difficult situation for you to deal with, perhaps you can talk with her about it? That might be the best approach.

There is no religion that I know of that requires a female to wear a beard, can you think of one?

Not for a female, however there are religions or sects that don't allow a male to shave their beard. Orthodox Judaism for one. Perhaps some Muslim as well? So if the person was early in transition, and still living part time as male, that could be reason for not shaving off the beard.

Zythyra

Now you are grasping at straws, if this person is female, there is no religious obligation to wear a beard.

This person ISN'T a female. This person is a woman.  As long as she has a penis (and I'm assuming she still does) most religious sects consider her a man.  Female refers to sex.  Woman refers to gender.

[melissa90299]

Parsing words  or semantics don't change the fact that this person can't possibly hold a religious conviction that s(he) must wear a beard when s(he) holds the innate belief that s(he) is a woman. You are really grasping at straws. BTW female refers to gender and sex.

[RebeccaFog]

ok, are we just talking hypothetical here, or does this person actually exist?

<-------- still doesnt like beards on men or women

Please button up your pants, Ashley.   

[Sophia]

Parsing words  or semantics don't change the fact that this person can't possibly hold a religious conviction that s(he) must wear a beard when s(he) holds the innate belief that s(he) is a woman.

It can be as simple as a religion that states that if you can grow a beard you should. Most women can't grow beards and by consequence are not required to do so.

And no, just because you've never heard of a religion that requires this is not proof that it doesn't exist. Proving a negative claim is an impossibility.

You are really grasping at straws.

I don't see the point. One hundred years ago a girl with short hair wouldn't of been a "real girl". Aren't you just clinging to tradition without actually applying the real requirements for being a girl to these people?

BTW female refers to gender and sex

Not according to the scientific community. Female refers to physical form and in genetics specifically your chromosomal setup (XX or XY)