Why are transgendered people the unwanted step-child of the LGBT?

[Suzie]

If anyone is the red-headed stepchild of the LGBT community, it is the bisexuals. Because our numbers are so low...

Please, let us not bite the hands that feed us.

I agree about the bisexuals.  I think one of the main reasons is that people don't think there is such a thing.  A lot of gay people I know, or have met, think that you are either gay or you are hetero, period.  And I've heard the concept that if you think you are bisexual, then you are in denial about being your true sexuality of gay/hetero.  Of course, this is rubbish. 

I'm not an activist myself and there are many people more able and motivated to bring forth the bi and trans causes.  But, I don't feel any sort of warm and gooey feeling being lumped in the LGBT "community".  If anyone L or G's want to further the trans causes under this umbrella, I think that's great and I quietly thank them. 

[katia]

We are all people and we all want equal rights.

that may be, yet are we equal in every aspect?   can you honestly say that a gay man is equal to a ts woman in terms of needs?  i think not.

[Kara]

We are all people and we all want equal rights.

that may be, yet are we equal in every aspect?   can you honestly say that a gay man is equal to a ts woman in terms of needs?  i think not.

Sorry to be a bit slow, but would you mind explaining that one a bit more?

[Cindi Jones]

No, we do not have equal needs.  We are not equal in our physical form, calorie intake, or intelligence.  We do not have the same aptitude in the workplace.  Neither do we have the same desires or ambitions.

BUT, under the law, we all deserve equal rights.  Our nation should treat each individual as fairly as the next.  Legal discrimination needs to be stamped out.

Cindi

[RebeccaFog]

We are all people and we all want equal rights.

that may be, yet are we equal in every aspect?   can you honestly say that a gay man is equal to a ts woman in terms of needs?  i think not.

    Different needs maybe, but certainly equal as an individual.  The LGBT group as a whole has many shared needs and goals.  The smaller groups which make up the larger group has it's own needs.  Just because there is a difference in our needs at some point, there is no reason to distance ourselves from each other.
   
    Other groups who have advocacy issues and needs, such as handicapped people, (an example.  please do not lecture me that we are not handicapped and blah blah blah) - you can argue that they don't all have "equal needs".  Of course, they don't all have the same needs, but they do need their community in order to do the work that is important to each group's needs.

[Shana A]

But, I don't feel any sort of warm and gooey feeling being lumped in the LGBT "community". 

that may be, yet are we equal in every aspect?   can you honestly say that a gay man is equal to a ts woman in terms of needs?  i think not.

OK, lots of people are concerned with differences between G, L, B and T. I totally agree that there are differences between each, and for that matter, plenty of differences among any one group. A white gay male republican might have very little in common with an African American lesbian democrat except for both being in same sex relationships. When we're talking equality, here are some things that I believe concern us all. My examples are pertain to the USA, I am not aware of all the local laws in other countries.

Marriage. If a M2F goes through full transition and is legally a woman, her marriage to her wife is now illegal, unless she lives in Massachusetts. If the couple lives in a small handful of other states, they could get a civil union, but will no longer be eligible to receive 1100 plus federal benefits to marriage. Conversely, if the M2F lives in Ohio, she cannot change her birth certificate, so she couldn't legally marry a man. GLBT is currently working toward marriage equality, or civil unions that will have ALL benefits of marriage, and these would be available to any transperson and their partner.

Discrimination. Transpeople suffer discrimination in employment, housing and are among the highest victims of violent hate crimes. Most LGBT advocacy groups include gender identity and expression along with sexual orientation in current drafts for anti discrimination and hate crimes bills.

Right to serve in military. Currently, a transperson can be discharged from hir position in the military. Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell will guarantee transpeople the right to serve their country.

There are plenty more rights that concern both LGB and T people. IMO, working together will help us to attain these rights sooner than if we work separately.

Zythyra

[Nero]

Personally, (and I know some people will find it hideously offensive) I think that gay/lesbian/bi folks should not only learn to accept that they are in the trans-spectrum but that transpeople should accept that they are in the freak spectrum.

As a matter of fact, I do find it hideously offensive. You just decimated whatever the hell it was you were trying to get across with that incendiary statement.
Accept that we are in the 'freak spectrum?' FREAK spectrum!
Doc, you may be in the freak spectrum, but I certainly am not.
I'm no more a freak than any other human being in this world.

Personally, (and I know some people will find it hideously offensive) I think that gay/lesbian/bi folks should not only learn to accept that they are in the trans-spectrum but that transpeople should accept that they are in the freak spectrum. Violating society's rules as regards to gender is violating society's rules, and that's a freak/outlaw thing to do. May as well unite with the other outlaw freaks. I'll be standing over here next to Jim Rose, and the deaf kids, and that guy with the dwarfism, and the guy with the badger. Except, heh, all those freaks but Rose don't wanna be identified as freaks either, so they won't want a weirdo like me to get near 'em.

What the hell ever.

[Shana A]

This thread is getting so picky/snitty. How can you possibly objectively evaluate needs for another group? Yes, I think millionaires don't have needs as great as a hungry child living in Soweto but when it gets down to gay men/transpeople... last time I looked these aren't monolithic groups. By and large, transwomen experience more discrimination than most gay white men. Both have high levels of violence targeted against them. But we're not just talking about amorphous groups, we're talking about individuals with personal stories. A young teenage gay male who's kicked out of his family and is living on the street turning tricks to survive is probably in worse shape than someone mtf who transitions on the job, maintains most of their social contacts and is fairly passable. It's on a story by story basis.

My question is... what do LGBT subgroups specifically have in common other than the discrimination they face? In general, groups brought together by common discrimination form temporary alliances to oppose that discrimination, but don't necessary create community or personal bonds.

Gina,

Apologies if anything I've said comes across as snitty, it isn't meant to be. Regarding your question, what do we have in common, other than discrimination? Perhaps not all that much. We are all humans though, so there's common ground in as much as we'd have with anyone else. I think it can also depend where one lives. For someone living in San Francisco, there are enough people in any given subculture to not have to "mingle" with others one doesn't wish to socialize with. I live in a rural area, and have established close friendships w/ a few gay men, lesbians and the very occasional other transperson. I find the bonds w/ other GLBT to be deep here, because it's so easy for us to feel isolated where we live. When we get together, we feel that we can let our hair down a little. 

I want equal rights for everyone, not just LGBTIQ, straight people too. I'll roll up my sleeves and work side by side with anyone to achieve the world in which I want to live.

Zythyra

[RebeccaFog]

I don't have a problem with being a freak.  It's what separates me from the humans.   


i don't have a problem with being the unwanted step-child.  I've been worse.

[Seshatneferw]

I'm no more a freak than any other human being in this world.

And that is exactly the point. We are, all of us (you, me, Elizabeth II, George W. Shrubbery, and the rest), freaks by someone's standards. The fundamentalist fringe does not accept that, or the implications: what we need is a society that accepts a much wider range of variety than now. The L, G, B and T communities (among others) have a rather strong interest in that acceptance, so it makes sense to present a united front in this.

Like someone said in another thread a while ago, we need to make it safe for the blatantly non-passing guy in a dress. At that point it will be safe for the rest, too -- and before that point the rest of us can't be sure it's safe.

  Nfr

[Lisbeth]

To get back to the original question...

It's because too many of us can't pass as "normal."  The heart of the Gay Rights Movement has been the message, "See?  We're normal just like the rest of you."  Most CDs, DQs, etc. don't fit that model, so anything TG is pushed to the side hoping we will remain invisible.

[Shana A]

It's because too many of us can't pass as "normal."  The heart of the Gay Rights Movement has been the message, "See?  We're normal just like the rest of you."  Most CDs, DQs, etc. don't fit that model, so anything TG is pushed to the side hoping we will remain invisible.

Absolutely true Lisbeth!. In my opinion, the trans movement is just as guilty of trying to sweep our "undesirables" under the carpet in an effort to appear "normal" and gain acceptance by society. G-ddess help any of us who might be a "man in a dress" with a bass voice

Zythyra

[Lisbeth]

In my opinion, the trans movement is just as guilty of trying to sweep our "undesirables" under the carpet in an effort to appear "normal" and gain acceptance by society. G-ddess help any of us who might be a "man in a dress" with a bass voice

You've got that right!

[Doc]

I'm no more a freak than any other human being in this world.

And that is exactly the point. We are, all of us (you, me, Elizabeth II, George W. Shrubbery, and the rest), freaks by someone's standards. The fundamentalist fringe does not accept that, or the implications: what we need is a society that accepts a much wider range of variety than now. The L, G, B and T communities (among others) have a rather strong interest in that acceptance, so it makes sense to present a united front in this.

Like someone said in another thread a while ago, we need to make it safe for the blatantly non-passing guy in a dress. At that point it will be safe for the rest, too -- and before that point the rest of us can't be sure it's safe.

  Nfr

Very well put.

The freak spectrum would be the spectrum of people whose differences may be taken as a good excuse to mock, revile, cheat and abuse them. You don't have to be Jim-Jim The Dog-Faced Boy to belong. On a global scale, more people are born intersex than are born redheaded, yet the cultural reaction to one is severe, and to the other indifferent. I am not suggesting we belong within some range of comically loathsome spectacle. I'm on about owning your difference, and understanding difference and the meanings of difference, and uniting against it when difference (ours or anyones) is assigned false, unjust, dangerous and hurtful meanings.

[Kristine]

First off I don't really care who you are, but unless you care to be a circus performer, or treated as a cadged animal please do not use the term freak to refer to anyone..

As to acceptance as a Transsexual or Innersexual into the Transgender community much of that is based off of history and western cultures supposedly civilized treatment of people who are slightly different for some reason. If you honestly feel that you're a freak then perhaps you should wear an upside-down pink triangle so that you may be sorted into the correct gas chamber because your obviously do not belong to the Arian race.

That same thought process is what helped create the World War II holocaust. It's also the same thought process that people like Virginia (Chuck) Prince used during the Stonewall riots to coin the term Transgender all because he didn't like the term transvestite, while he too thought that transsexuals were freaks that should be institutionalized.
In part it's that same separatist thought process that separates us, but it's simply societies treatment that binds us together.
What we all have to remember is that as men and women we are simply people who are trying to make our ways through life with some different challenges than what western culture dictates as normal.
   
And then lastly I don't know about any of you.. but I didn't choose to be a transsexual, later learning that I'm actually innersexed.
Does that make me a freak because I was born with a slightly different genetic code than what science/western culture said was normal.

Food for thought
Kristine

[RebeccaFog]

Hi Kristine,

   Would you like to write a brief intro to yourself here
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html
   It'll help people to get acquainted with you a little.

   Thank you for your input in this thread.


Rebis

[Jeannette]

Well, a man choosing to perform the feminine behavior of sleeping with men is just as gender variant as a man choosing to perform the feminine behavior of wearing a dress. Society says that men are supposed to sleep with women and wear pants.

Actually, the LGBT confuses sexuality and gender. If they didn't want sexuality to be confused with gender, they wouldn't have the T tacked on the end. Transgender isn't about "being" the other gender, but doing things of the other gender.

My point is that maybe gays should fight for all cross-gender behaviors and under a single identity. Men wearing dresses is no more cross-gender behavior than men having sex with men, like women are "suposed" to. So why the need to separate crossgender behaviors? Why not call it all transgender, and fight for the rights of everyone to do things outside what their gender is "supposed" to do? To society, a man is not supposed to have sex with men anymore so than a man is supposed to wear a dress.


Remember also that the question here is about transgenders, gays, and other gender variant, not transsexuals.  TSs are people with cisgender beliefs who were born with a birth defect that gave them the wrong body.

TGs are men or people other than women who dress as "women," act "feminine" as they define it, and are obsessed with keeping their male parts. So they are men who practice the feminine behaviors of wearing dresses and other things.

Gays, are men who engage in the feminine behavior of having sex with men. Society says that sex with women is a masculine behavior and sex with men is a feminine behavior. Men who have sex with men or women who have sex with women are still practicing contra-gender behaviors, even if their dress as their own gender and don't want to change. As far as that goes, even TGs want to do things outside what is right for their gender, and without changing their bodies to do it. 

Okay that's my view on this anyway.  eeeeeeeeekkkkkk!

[Sophia]

The LGBs insist that transgendered persons are part of their community, yet I feel that transgenders are left to take the leftovers and friend for themselves. It'd seem that whenever there is political action, the GLBs often fight for their rights at the exclusion of TGs. They often see TGs as a threat, and are afraid TGs will cost LGBs their victories. If gays are too afraid to help TGs, and only consider them an afterthought, then why do they include them at all or consider them to be allies?

Its an unfortunate phenomenon that no matter what a group of people have gone through or what experiences they've had, they still are, in the end, people.

People hate. People don't understand. People fear what's different.

Homosexuals and bisexuals are no exception. Hell even we are not exception. The trans community is JUST as guilty of violating pacts with allies and sweeping the undesirables under the rug in many instances.

And then there's just the lack of cohesive connection for a lot of homosexuals. They look at their situation and go, "this is about who we're attracted to" and they look at us and go, "this is about who they are"

What is the connection? There's really no conceptual connection between our movements. Its entirely being allied on the basis of us having all the same enemies.

Those are the reasonings of the unreasonable, jerkish types. The ironic hypocritical dislike of us for being different or the idea that we don't have a connection and the unrealistic idea that we can all succeed on our own.


But the thing that really hurts us in the eyes of the reasonable and intelligent homosexuals? The fact that so many of us transition, stealth and disappear.

We're the only group that loses such a huge degree of advocates and fighters to actually leaving the fight to immerse into primary society. Homosexuals can't do that without going back in the closet and it can generate a certain degree of both resentment and anger (resentment because many homosexuals wish to be considered "normal" and anger because its arguably abandoning the fight and making it harder for everyone else)

Of course its very dependent on area too. There are plenty of locations where the trans community is an integral and valued part of LGBT and treated as such by the LGB allies.

Why not replace the term LGBT with TG? A transgender is someone who somehow "violates society's rules in regards to gender", right? Society says that men are not to dress as women nor have sex with men. So whether you are a man who dresses as a woman, a man who lives as a woman to some degree, or a man who chooses to have sex with men, then you are "violating society's rules" for how men should behave. So instead of TGs being a part of the LGBT, aren't LGBs really part of the transgendered term?

That's a pretty big stretch of the term transgendered. It really doesn't include sexual attraction. So calling LGBT, "TG" would hopelessly muddy the waters and confuse the common folk more then normal.

One thing we don't need is more confusion.

[Sophia]

Having sex with men isn't really a feminine behavior and having sex with women isn't really a masculine one.

Its only perceived so by the opposition and lauded as such by them.

[Nero]

Having sex with men isn't really a feminine behavior and having sex with women isn't really a masculine one.

Its only perceived so by the opposition and lauded as such by them.

True, which is part of the underlying problems we face. Some actually believe that gay men are like women and lesbians are like men. A lot of misconceptions about us are born of this - that TS are just such extreme homosexuals that we want to be the opposite sex.