Why are transgendered people the unwanted step-child of the LGBT?

[Jeannette]

The LGBs insist that transgendered persons are part of their community, yet I feel that transgenders are left to take the leftovers and friend for themselves. It'd seem that whenever there is political action, the GLBs often fight for their rights at the exclusion of TGs. They often see TGs as a threat, and are afraid TGs will cost LGBs their victories. If gays are too afraid to help TGs, and only consider them an afterthought, then why do they include them at all or consider them to be allies?

Why not replace the term LGBT with TG? A transgender is someone who somehow "violates society's rules in regards to gender", right? Society says that men are not to dress as women nor have sex with men. So whether you are a man who dresses as a woman, a man who lives as a woman to some degree, or a man who chooses to have sex with men, then you are "violating society's rules" for how men should behave. So instead of TGs being a part of the LGBT, aren't LGBs really part of the transgendered term?

[mallard500]

The LGBs insist that transgendered persons are part of their community, yet I feel that transgenders are left to take the leftovers and friend for themselves. It'd seem that whenever there is political action, the GLBs often fight for their rights at the exclusion of TGs. They often see TGs as a threat, and are afraid TGs will cost LGBs their victories. If gays are too afraid to help TGs, and only consider them an afterthought, then why do they include them at all or consider them to be allies?

Why not replace the term LGBT with TG? A transgender is someone who somehow "violates society's rules in regards to gender", right? Society says that men are not to dress as women nor have sex with men. So whether you are a man who dresses as a woman, a man who lives as a woman to some degree, or a man who chooses to have sex with men, then you are "violating society's rules" for how men should behave. So instead of TGs being a part of the LGBT, aren't LGBs really part of the transgendered term?

I'm not sure I'd say this is always the case though, Jeannette.  I'd say it depends greatly on where you're at, and what elements of the LGB community you're dealing with.

In my hometown for example, there really IS a lot of mutual support, respect, and work amoung all elements of LGBT.   There's always going to be exceptions of course too...  just as there's surely some Lesbian/Gay/Bi folks in your community that are very supportive and inclusive of Transfolk, I know there's some that aren't supportive here in Portland.

Moreover, unless you're talking about a pretty small city, the LGBT community in most places is simply too large to really be able to say anything about it as a blanket truth.  For example, I could make a very similar and accurate argument about the Portland community's acceptance of the Leather/SM sub-communities.  While there's been a lot of interaction and good history, you could also say the same thing you did and just substitute Trans with Leather.

In any group, you're going to find some that are inclusive, and others that operate out of fear, desire for larger societal acceptance, or just their own personel phobias, hang-ups or denial.

I'd suggest not giving up on the LGB folks where you live; concentrate on just finding those that are true allies and friends; educating the mass middle group; and letting the others kiss your....  um....  whatever.   

Just remember - no one knows how to oppress like the oppressed themselves.  (sadly enough...)


Scott

[Buffy]

Personally, I would prefer not to be lumped in with GLB.

I have nothing against these groups of people, but the public at large has enough trouble with the T( Transsexual).

Being Transsexual is not a life choice, choosing your partner or significant other is.

Buffy

[Steph]

It wasn't us who grouped us in with the GLB, it was society and at the time that happened there wasn't much support for us, so generally speaking we embraced the merger as it provided a place for support.  However,  some GLB groups didn't welcome us and still don't.

The problem is an old and there have been several topics as to why this happens, one of which relates to TS not wanting to be know as TS after transition and SRS, they simply want to know as their true gender.  Belonging to a group that identified them would betray their past to others.

Steph

[Keira]

I think, the fact that TS (those that truly identify as women) are only transient under the transgendered umbrella while they sort themselves out and in fact, later on, don't want that umbrella at all and are quite happy with whatever protection or support being a human being provides :-).

Its this transient mix or TS and gender variants and CD's that kinda mixes up the issue.

We are not really transgendered, we've always got one gender and our body's kinda not agree for a little while.

[Dennis]

Personally, I would prefer not to be lumped in with GLB.

I have nothing against these groups of people, but the public at large has enough trouble with the T( Transsexual).

Being Transsexual is not a life choice, choosing your partner or significant other is.

Buffy

Being gay, lesbian or bisexual is not a choice any more than being transsexual is. Choosing to live with someone you love is as much of a choice as choosing to transition. Sure, you could not do it, but at what price to yourself?

Dennis

[NicholeW.]

This argument is really complex. Kinda like from where I sit: is that person bailing water outta the boat or helping to swamp it?

Yes, most MTFTS, most of the ones I meet, do not want to do away with the binary, and are more likely to kinda want to fade into the fabric as a 'just another' than other people in the LTBG coalition. Although as the MTFTS population gets statistically younger, more people come from the G party to identify as TS, or at least T.

OTH, most FTMTS I meet have no problems with the LTBG coalition. In fact, they are much more likely to have associated a good part of their lives with the L party of the coalition than with the T party. They seem to be able to view things a bit differently than do many MTFTSes because they come from a different association.

Coalitions are always fragile; they rely on a range of different people with different opinions agreeing enough to work together.

I don't see the difficulty in that necessarily being any one group's fault. Just a different set of circumstances and views about how to get from point A to point G and which points to plot on that course, and when.

Face it, regardless Lynn Conway's guestimates, TS people are probably a fairly rare group. Being able to include CD/TV/DQ et. al. tends to bolster those number. Being able to align, with greater or lesser ease with LBG people ups the sum of any statistical population to some where between 5% and 10%.

That seems a positive political reality. But, the frustration lotsa T people feel is that we are the last addition to GBLT and the first jettisoned when it comes to political changes. That can be awfully frustrating.

Part of the problem is the way a lot of us MTFTSes were conditioned: gay is bad. We were married or at least often attempted to have girlfriends, etc as a function of the way we felt we had to stay hidden. CDs and TVs prolly can ditto that, maybe a lot of Androgynes as well.

Overall, even with the frustration, I imagine that TSes are better off politically within a group that increases our very small numbers. Gay males and Lesbians have been and continue to be the most vigorous groups pushing for changes. They also often tilt tactics and strategy to maintain their own gains if push comes to shove over an issue.

Can't say that is not understandable. In a majority rules coalition, minority parties are often left without major parts of their agendas implemented. 

Yet, change has come. And I really do suspect that with the establishment of Real ID and the invasive and pervasive effects of the new cold war against 'terrorists' that Ts of all stripes will need as much support as we can get. At least the LTBG  are familiar with us more than are nons.

Hard questions, real practicalities on a political level.

Nichole

[LostInTime]

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

[mallard500]

Personally, I would prefer not to be lumped in with GLB.

I have nothing against these groups of people, but the public at large has enough trouble with the T( Transsexual).

Being Transsexual is not a life choice, choosing your partner or significant other is.

Buffy

I would respectfully, but emphatically, disagree.  Being G/L or B is no more of a 'choice' for most people than being Trans. 

And while politics do indeed make interesting bedfellows, and brings up some interesting issues, it's a simple reality that we are far better off allieing ourselves with groups that we share some goals with, than trying it alone - we're simply too small of a group to have any real political clout alone.

Anyway, some of the responces on this thread alone point point to the inherant problems of any political alliences... fragile at best... 

Scott

[Shana A]

While each group under the GLBTIQetc umbrella has its own unique issues, there is also plenty of common ground, I believe joining together will help all of us gain our rights sooner. There's been considerable difficulty in the past due to feelings of having our concerns ignored and inclusion in name only, however I believe things have gotten much better than a few years ago. I think that often when GLB people are discriminated against, it isn't only because they are gay, but also for non adherence to traditional gender roles, so that is an area of overlap. In addition, many of us in the trans community are also LG or B, or perceived as such.

Zythyra

[Kara]

It seems like T's ( all varients) undermind part of the GLB message that lesbians are not "butch dykes" and Gay men are not all "sissy boys".

Society as a whole could very well see us as a reinforcement of those old views. Especially since many of the unwashed masses still consider us our birth Gender, just "mutilated" Most also automatically consider us Gay. I can understand how they can see us as damaging. I really don't see how we could ever have a movement when those who pass just slip into the fold. Not to knock them, I can only pray for that blessing but that only leaves the "men in dresses" to defend themselves.

It is quite a conumdrum(sp?).

[mallard500]

It seems like T's ( all varients) undermind part of the GLB message that lesbians are not "butch dykes" and Gay men are not all "sissy boys".

Society as a whole could very well see us as a reinforcement of those old views. Especially since many of the unwashed masses still consider us our birth Gender, just "mutilated" Most also automatically consider us Gay. I can understand how they can see us as damaging. I really don't see how we could ever have a movement when those who pass just slip into the fold. Not to knock them, I can only pray for that blessing but that only leaves the "men in dresses" to defend themselves.

It is quite a conumdrum(sp?).

Indeed it is, and this is yet one more example of some of the commonality we have with the LGB part of LGBT...  It can very difficult to politicize a group when some, if not many of its members can choose not to be 'open' if they wish.  Unlike many groups facing discrimination, many LGBT folks don't have to 'come out' if they don't want to.

Closets can be safe, comfortable spaces... then again, so can coffins. 

Scott

[Kendall]

It is confusing since the labels are talking about orientation, gender identity, and gender expression. Not just one aspect, though the grouping almost makes it sound like one grouping. Even then the cultures (for defining gender identity and gender expression) which are being compared vary from person-to-person, region-to-region, country-to-country. Having said that, its also true for individual labels as well.

But such talk having said that is non-sense. Because even unrelated parties and persons can unite and bring some important issues to mutually aggreeable. Though the dominant parties rule, hopefully the weaker smaller parties get some consideration from time to time. Its like "I am with you, but every once in a while, do something for me."

[Dorothy]

I think the problem is that there isnt really a LGBT communit*y*. Theres really the L, G, B, and sometimes T communit*ies* that every once in a while work together but usually dont like each other.

[Yvonne]

Being a transsexual woman, I don't like to be lumped up with people who have not experienced what I have experienced.  TS are a different group just like Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender are and need to be acknowledged and kept as a separate category.

[Diane]

Being a transsexual woman, I don't like to be lumped up with people who have not experienced what I have experienced.  TS are a different group just like Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender are and need to be acknowledged and kept as a separate category.

I agree

[melissa90299]

Being a transsexual woman, I don't like to be lumped up with people who have not experienced what I have experienced.  TS are a different group just like Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender are and need to be acknowledged and kept as a separate category.

If anyone is the red-headed stepchild of the LGBT community, it is the bisexuals. Because our numbers are so low, we would have almost zero without being part of this coalition. Living at ground zero of the LGBT political movement (San Francisco) I think the coalition is working rather well actually. We need them more than they need us. Gay men here who are politically involved have always stepped up to the plate on issues involving us. I don't think any of the recent laws protecting Ts would have passed without support form the coalition. Many times the National Center for Lesbian Rights have taken up cases involving transwomen, Susan Stanton being one of the most recent ones.

Please, let us not bite the hands that feed us.

[Shana A]

TS are a different group just like Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender are and need to be acknowledged and kept as a separate category.

Early on in the movement when gay and lesbians and later bisexuals first joined together under one umbrella, there was much discussion regarding differences between each and there were numerous instances of lack of inclusion. Ultimately though, everyone realized that we need to work together against discrimination. Yes, TS are different than TG or CD or androgynes, and from GLB, however we are ALL oppressed by the het majority, and for pretty much the same fundamental reasons. I gladly work with any and all allies, be they gay, trans or straight, and I've been fighting for your rights for the last 25 years, whether you want me to or not.

Zythyra

[Doc]

Why not replace the term LGBT with TG? A transgender is someone who somehow "violates society's rules in regards to gender", right? Society says that men are not to dress as women nor have sex with men. So whether you are a man who dresses as a woman, a man who lives as a woman to some degree, or a man who chooses to have sex with men, then you are "violating society's rules" for how men should behave. So instead of TGs being a part of the LGBT, aren't LGBs really part of the transgendered term?

I agree with you totally there.

And the reason we tend to get sidelined on the LGB thing is that hey, we strike people as being weirder than cisgendered lesbians and gays. And they figure they can mainstream and get respect by not seeming freaky, by seeming like ordinary cisgendered men and women who don't voilate society's rules in any way except who they sleep with. There's no difference between the exclusion of transpeople and the actions of those suit-wearing 'straight-acting' gay professionals who are so very very quick to dissassociate themselves from gay guys who swish and wear things that might be tight and sparkly, or grope each other in public. I just recently listened to a gay guy whining about how he hates other gay men who make that stereotypical effeminate hand-gestures or lisp, because somehow this makes him look like a poof by proxy, just 'cause he's gay too. Or something like that. It's all very stupid.

And no different from fifteen-years-ago women's groups who didn't want to include lesbians 'cause they figured that'd make them look bad and brings down the women's movement.

Personally, (and I know some people will find it hideously offensive) I think that gay/lesbian/bi folks should not only learn to accept that they are in the trans-spectrum but that transpeople should accept that they are in the freak spectrum. Violating society's rules as regards to gender is violating society's rules, and that's a freak/outlaw thing to do. May as well unite with the other outlaw freaks. I'll be standing over here next to Jim Rose, and the deaf kids, and that guy with the dwarfism, and the guy with the badger. Except, heh, all those freaks but Rose don't wanna be identified as freaks either, so they won't want a weirdo like me to get near 'em.

[Cindi Jones]

We are all people and we all want equal rights.  For this reason, I'll join anyone marching for equal rights.  You can throw me into any group and I'll fight for the same cause.  And you know what?  I'll end up coming away with friends.  It always happens.  I don't have friends because of their <fill in the blank category> status.  I get to know people for their hobbies, interests, or professional interests.

Cindi