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When do we place a male-bodied inmate in a women's prison?

Started by suzifrommd, December 10, 2014, 08:53:15 AM

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suzifrommd

Quote from: amnwyd on December 12, 2014, 12:45:06 PM
One interesting loophole is the use of Gender Recognition Certificates. In the UK these are used to get a new birth certificate and they legally changes your gender for ALL legal purposes. So, if someone MTF holding a GRC was arrested and imprisoned, they would have to be sent to a female prison regardless of how they looked. Some who does not hold a GRC is legally male and could be sent to a male prison, even if on hormones and visually female and would have to request a female prison.

I hope this helps your deliberations

I'd be in favor of the GRC - seems like it solves a lot of problems - as long as one doesn't need some sort of permission. Should be enough just to assert under oath that you're planning to live your life as a member of your new gender. Once you start imposing conditions, then gatekeepers start showing up.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 12, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
This is going downhill. Only one person knows if someone is transgender. The person.

Forcing people to have surgery? Unbelievable that I would read that here.

Hugs, Devlyn

I agree, Devlyn. In addition to being medieval, forced surgery to "prove" your transness is invalidating to non-ops.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Devlyn

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 12, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
I'd be in favor of the GRC - seems like it solves a lot of problems - as long as one doesn't need some sort of permission. Should be enough just to assert under oath that you're planning to live your life as a member of your new gender. Once you start imposing conditions, then gatekeepers start showing up.

I agree, Devlyn. In addition to being medieval, forced surgery to "prove" your transness is invalidating to non-ops.

Yeah, and no good at all for someone with hemophilia.  :-\
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Beverly

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 12, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
This is going downhill. Only one person knows if someone is transgender. The person.

Forcing people to have surgery? Unbelievable that I would read that here.

You did not read it in my post either.

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Beverly

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 12, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
Should be enough just to assert under oath that you're planning to live your life as a member of your new gender. Once you start imposing conditions, then gatekeepers start showing up.

You cannot have it both ways. Self-certification gets abused, that means some sort of gatekeeping is needed to prevent it.

I suppose we could send the inmates on a course in Moral Philosophy and Ethics and ask them to obey the rules, but one the career requirements for criminals is NOT obeying the rules.
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ThePhoenix

I always find the prison threads interesting.  A lot of trans* people who would be incensed if their gender identities were not recognized and who recognize that the trope about men in women's facilities in the rest of the world is absurd, suddenly start insisting on special tests for prisoners and getting very concerned about men claiming to identify as women so that the men can go into women's facilities.  It's the one time when i have seen large numbers of trans* people start to agree with a group like the Family Research Council on both the position (trans* people should be housed based on genitals) and the reasons (men will pretend so they can get transferred to womens prisons).  But is there any evidence of that?  I'm not aware of any.

Historically, prisons have general housed trans* people based on anatomy.  That means men in women's prisons if they are FtM and women in men's prisons if they are MtF.  The main problem with this has been assault, especially sexual assault.  In the US, we have made a legal and policy judgment that says people in prisons should not be raped.  It still happens sometimes.  And it was happening to trans* prisoners a lot more than other prisoners, sometimes with participation by prison guards.  This still happens in many prisons. 

This placed prison administrators in a quandary.  They couldn't allow prisoners to be raped.  They started (and still continue) losing lawsuits alleging that the prison staff did not keep the trans* prisoner safe.  So they couldn't house them based on genitals alone.  And of course they couldn't respect a trans* person's gender identity because (they believed) anyone with boy parts is male and should be called he and anyone with girl parts is female and should be called she, no matter how they might identify.  So some prisons began automatically housing trans* prisoners in "administrative segregation" a/k/a solitary confinement, either on arrival or after the trans* prisoner is assaulted.

But solitary confinement poses other problems.  It involves isolation inside of a cell for 23 hours a day without other contact from people.  This creates health problems--especially mental health issues.  And it also isolates the trans* person from access to programs available for other prisoners.  For example, educational programs are often available to help prisoners obtain credentials like a GED so that the prisoner may be more likely to have options on the outside world beyond committing crimes.  It usually is used for short periods of time as a punishment for the worst behaved inmates.  But for transgender people, it is used for long periods of time, including entire sentences.  Synthia Blast, for example, has been held in solitary for more than a decade now.  So what we have now is transgender people being punished much more harshly than cisgender people solely because of their gender identity.  That practice is increasingly being challenged as well on Eighth amendment grounds, among others.

Now we see two other trends emerging, partly due to standards promulgated by the Department of Justice pursuant the the Prison Rape Elimination Act.  Some prisons are, for the first time, housing trans* prisoners according to their gender identities.  The Harris County jail in Houston, Texas, is among the higher profile detention centers trying this.  They began about a year ago and so far there have been no problems that I know of.  More specifically, there have been no reports of men claiming to be transgender so they can get into the women's facility.

Another approach being tried is the creation of "trans* only" detention facilities.  Rikers Island prison in New York is a high profile example of this approach.  Their facility began operation last month, so it's too soon to say much about how it is working.  I'm trying to provide factual history here, so I will refrain from stating an opinion on it. :)

But one thing that shows itself to be true over and over and over again in every setting is that there are far fewer problems when one respects trans* people's gender identities.  It works better in locker rooms, bathrooms, and other places.  And prisons seem to be no exception.  Time will tell if I'm right about that . . . but evidence so far seems to suggest the correctness of that view.

If there were evidence of a problem with men claiming to identify as women, or vice versa, just to get into the opposite sex facilities, then I'd agree it was a concern.  But I've seen no evidence of that being an issue.  When I advise policy makers, I prefer to advise them based on things that are actually happening.  When they raise hypothetical situations that just aren't happening, I advise them to focus on real problems instead of issues that don't exist.  And it's the same thing here unless someone knows of a rash of this happening that I have somehow missed. :)
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Devlyn

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Devlyn

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
I think a reminder that an incarcerated person's rights are diminished because of their offense. hence it's a useful deterrent to being caught for any offence...

if the male bodied prisoners who have not made any commitment towards transitioning whether were to be housed with female bodied prisoners, would that diminish the rights of female bodied prisoners to a safe environment?

put the shoe on the other leg. mtfs don't like being housed with men because they (mtf) are not men.
so... should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to be housed with obviously non female or non female bodied prisoners?

kindly examine the argument you had put forth. if it were indeed as above stated, it smacks of hypocrisy...

the special prisoner would have to end up in solitary confinement anyway, until some certain threshold is reached? then it would not matter which facility  the convict was held in so long as it's solitary. 
and solitary isn't healthy.

just to cite a local court case. a Thai mtf postop was caught smuggling non hardcore drugs (the kind smugglers don't get a death sentence for) into my country.

as her passport said male (Thai cannot change gender marker even postop ) she was appropriately sentenced to caning (male punishment ) and men's prison but of course she was examined by a doctor to be female bodied, spared caning and housed in female facilities.

That isn't how it works here. You give up your freedom, not your rights while you're imprisoned.
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ThePhoenix

Well, I cannot speak to Thai law.  But as to this point:

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
if the male bodied prisoners who have not made any commitment towards transitioning whether were to be housed with female bodied prisoners, would that diminish the rights of female bodied prisoners to a safe environment?

put the shoe on the other leg. mtfs don't like being housed with men because they (mtf) are not men.
so... should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to be housed with obviously non female or non female bodied prisoners?

I see no difference between your question and these:

Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's restrooms?
Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's locker rooms?
Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's fitting rooms?
Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's homeless shelters? 

MtF people are either men or they aren't.  We either respect their identity or we don't.  Trans* identities are either real or they aren't.  If we want our identities respected, then we have to respect other people's identities.  the rule is not that we respect identities until they become inconvenient.

If we say that an MtF person is a woman and not a man, then thats the answer and we should act accordingly.  To turn around and say that MtF people are women unless they are in prison makes no logical sense.  There's just no reason to spontaneously change a person's gender because they get locked up.  So to argue that tra s* identities should be respected unless they are get arrested does indeed seem hypocritical. 

The other issue that often comes up in these threads is judgmentalism toward criminals.  There are some bad people in prison, no doubt.  But I live in an area (Metro D.C.) where stats published in 2013 show a 50% unemployment rate for trans* people.  A majority (I think 2/3, but I don't have the stats in front of me now) of MtF trans* people here have done survival sex work.  These are not evil people.  These are people who just don't want to die, but no one will hire them because they are trans*, so they do what they must to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.  Desperate people do desperate things.

Sex work, of course, is illegal even if it's your only way to survive.  The example of CeCe McDonald shows how trans* people can find themselves locked up for not allowing themselves to be killed. 

So when we talk about trans* prisoners, we are talking about a lot of very desperate people who aren't bad folks at all.  But because of who they are, they found themselves in pretty awful situations and they did what they could to survive.  And then--still because of who they are--they are treated even worse than a truly bad person. 

It seems to me that something is wrong with that too. 


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suzifrommd

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
I think a reminder that an incarcerated person's rights are diminished because of their offense. hence it's a useful deterrent to being caught for any offence...

Yes, but they are not subject to cruelty. That's against our constitution.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Miss_Bungle1991

Quote from: Jill F on December 10, 2014, 03:46:58 PM
I've been wondering which pokey they'd send me to now. 

I haven't had SRS, but I'm post orchi, on HRT for almost 2 years and am legally recognized as female.   You can't exactly lock me up with the guys.

I still have residual guy junk, so I probably wouldn't get locked up with the ladies until that was addressed.   Good luck getting SRS in prison though.

Unwarranted solitary confinement?

Guess I have to really watch myself now.   I have yet to see the inside of a jail, so I should probably keep it that way.

   

I'm in the same boat. The chances of me going to jail/prison are pretty slim. The only thing I can think of that could land me in any trouble is if I killed someone in self-defense. Other than that, I should never be in any situations like that.
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Devlyn

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on December 12, 2014, 08:12:27 PM
I'm in the same boat. The chances of me going to jail/prison are pretty slim. The only thing I can think of that could land me in any trouble is if I killed someone in self-defense. Other than that, I should never be in any situations like that.

We're all one car accident or DUI away from jail, remember that. Text and drive, kill somebody?  That's vehicular homicide.  Like ThePhoenix said, not everyone in jail is a bad person.

@ Hanazono: "I do recall that a fundamental right of a person is freedom of movement...hmmm ?   so not having that would really be a diminishment of rights, de facto rather than de jure of course... how would a person with no freedom have full rights, anyway ?"

When we are referring to rights in the US, it is The Bill Of Rights we are referring to, and freedom of movement isn't included. Probably because our rights apply equally to all citizens, including prisoners.  http://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/  I realize I may be interpreting your response incorrectly,  perhaps you meant where you live. I apologize if so.
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Miss_Bungle1991

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 12, 2014, 08:24:16 PM
We're all one car accident or DUI away from jail, remember that. Text and drive, kill somebody?  That's vehicular homicide. 

I don't text
I don't drive
I don't drink
But I can still friggin' think.

I can't keep up
I can't keep up
I can't keep up
I can't keep up

I'm out of step with this world
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ImagineKate

Having dealt with inmates in law enforcement and having many friends and colleagues in corrections, I think the best solution is to evaluate and place the inmate in gender appropriate prisons. If someone identifies as MTF then they should be in a female prison. Prisons have psychiatrists and they should be able to make a fair assessment. Violent inmates are going to wind up segregated from general population anyway. Women's prisons aren't all peaches and cream either. I knew one CO who worked in a women's prison and she had multiple lacerations on her head from assaults by female inmates.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 04, 2015, 01:51:16 PM
Prisons have psychiatrists and they should be able to make a fair assessment.

But therein lies the problem. I had a psychiatrist sneer at the fact I might be trans and tell me not to transition. What would you do if a psychiatrist declared you "not trans" and sent you to a men's prison? Do we really want psychiatrists to have that kind of power over us?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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ImagineKate

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 04, 2015, 06:37:36 PM
But therein lies the problem. I had a psychiatrist sneer at the fact I might be trans and tell me not to transition. What would you do if a psychiatrist declared you "not trans" and sent you to a men's prison? Do we really want psychiatrists to have that kind of power over us?

That's a good point. That's why the trans community needs to help get training for these people and the inmate or accused should have the ability to call in someone specialized in gender issues.

Unfortunately trans is one of the smaller issues in prison for society at large and it simply does not get the airtime. Plus the public is of the opinion that prison is not supposed to be summer camp (it isn't). However we should be respecting basic human rights and that includes proper healthcare including mental health care.

There is really no easy answer to this unfortunately. Best to lawyer up if you get arrested. That's your best defense.
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