When do we place a male-bodied inmate in a women's prison?

[suzifrommd]

This came up in a thread about another topic and rather than derailing it, I'm moving the discussion here.

A male-bodied person is convicted and sentenced to prison. They announce they are transgender and wish to transition. They ask to be put in a women's prison.

Do we let them? Or do we subject them to some sort of test?

If we let them, are we opening the door to letting into women's prison all sorts of mentwith all sorts of motives (looking to avoid the brutality of men's prison? Looking to commit sexual assault? Or maybe, really trans...). If we apply some sort of test, aren't we giving gatekeepers power over someone's transition, something many of us find abhorrent?

What should the policy be?

[Missy~rmdlm]

I really didn't think that was up for debate in the US justice system. If we are purely supposing the future it's not something I would support. The challenge consistently remains to get medical care period, and jail placement is based anatomically. The numerous non-ops that have legally changed their gender prior to a conviction will be in court about that sooner or later.

[Devlyn]

This came up in a thread about another topic and rather than derailing it, I'm moving the discussion here.

A male-bodied person is convicted and sentenced to prison. They announce they are transgender and wish to transition. They ask to be put in a women's prison.

Do we let them? Or do we subject them to some sort of test?

If we let them, are we opening the door to letting into women's prison all sorts of mentwith all sorts of motives (looking to avoid the brutality of men's prison? Looking to commit sexual assault? Or maybe, really trans...). If we apply some sort of test, aren't we giving gatekeepers power over someone's transition, something many of us find abhorrent?

What should the policy be?

First, thanks for breaking this out of the other topic, Suzi.

This is tough. Someone who has lived male, got in trouble as a man, then announces that they're transgender after sentencing certainly may not be as straightforward as it looks. I think it's a slightly different situation than the Pvt. Manning discussion, I recall she identified as transgender before sentencing, and had engaged in at least crossdressing or presenting as female earlier.

Regarding a test, if they come up with that you can bet it will be selling like hotcakes here! Seriously, though, is there anyone here that would like taking a test to prove that they are who they say they are?

[awilliams1701]

I hope I never need to put myself into a situation where I find out.

[JustASeq]

The numerous non-ops that have legally changed their gender prior to a conviction will be in court about that sooner or later.

Filing a class action lawsuit against the state for cruel and unusual punishment I presume.

[Carrie Liz]

Perhaps what all of us have to do? Talk with a therapist and actually be diagnosed with gender dysphoria?

If someone is lying, it should become readily apparent to an experienced therapist pretty quickly. Someone claiming to have experienced transgender feelings will almost always have life stories that back it up. Someone who's just faking it, their stories will fall apart pretty quickly when a professional therapist asks them questions about their past.

To be fair, though, then there's the issue of having a therapist with too rigorous standards, which a lot of us have to face, or therapists who disagree entirely with the very existence of GD and see it as nothing but a mental disorder stemming from other life problems, so I don't know. I hate this imperfect world sometimes. It makes everything so damned complicated.

[peky]

This came up in a thread about another topic and rather than derailing it, I'm moving the discussion here.

A male-bodied person is convicted and sentenced to prison. They announce they are transgender and wish to transition. They ask to be put in a women's prison.

Do we let them? Or do we subject them to some sort of test?

If we let them, are we opening the door to letting into women's prison all sorts of mentwith all sorts of motives (looking to avoid the brutality of men's prison? Looking to commit sexual assault? Or maybe, really trans...). If we apply some sort of test, aren't we giving gatekeepers power over someone's transition, something many of us find abhorrent?

What should the policy be?

The "gates" that have been set in place by the medical community, e.g. letter from a mental health practitioner for HRT, letter from mental health practitioner plus one year RLF as a condtion for SRS, to mitigate the risk of people who undergo these changes just to chnge their minds later on... I mean we had several threads on "de-transtioning" horror stories...


So, if a person who is in prison wants to be "housed" in the jail of the opposite gender, then he/she should go through the same wickets as the rest of us. Psychological/psychiatric evaluation before HRT, then intimate HRT, keep them segregate from the general population -under HRT_ for a year.. then more psychiatric evaluation, then SRS, legal name change, and now we are ready to place them in the jail congruent with their new gender...

[Jill F]

I've been wondering which pokey they'd send me to now. 

I haven't had SRS, but I'm post orchi, on HRT for almost 2 years and am legally recognized as female.   You can't exactly lock me up with the guys.

I still have residual guy junk, so I probably wouldn't get locked up with the ladies until that was addressed.   Good luck getting SRS in prison though.

Unwarranted solitary confinement?

Guess I have to really watch myself now.   I have yet to see the inside of a jail, so I should probably keep it that way.

   

[mac1]

That is definately a bigger concern for the "MTF" person than for the "FTM" person.

Until the "FTM" person actually has the bottom surgery the only logical choice would be the women's prison.  Placing him in the male prision while still having a vagina or not having penis would  be likely to result in him being sexually abused.

For the "MTF" person it would be a more difficult decision. If she looked feminine or had feminine breasts and other features but still had a penis she really wouldn't be safe in either the women's or men's prison. However, if she already had total SRS the women's prision should be the only choice for her.

[Deborah]

I suggest that the only way for the state to house male bodied persons in female facilities is to offer gonadectomy (physical orchidectomy) as a mandatory step prior to it.

A faker would be found out real fast.

LOL. the volunteer pool would quickly go dry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carrie Liz]

Ooh, free orchiectomy? Sign me up for a felony!

[suzifrommd]

I suggest that the only way for the state to house male bodied persons in female facilities is to offer gonadectomy (physical orchidectomy) as a mandatory step prior to it.

A faker would be found out real fast.

Are there are cases in which we'd have to "prove" our transness by altering our bodies whether we want them altered or not?

This is a terrifying slippery slope I DON'T want to go slipping down.

[AnonyMs]

I came across this article recently. I was going to summarize, but not sure what to say.

In the Gay Wing of L.A. Men's Central Jail, It's Not Shanks and Muggings But Hand-Sewn Gowns and Tears
http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/11/18/in-the-gay-wing-of-la-mens-central-jail-its-not-shanks-and-muggings-but-hand-sewn-gowns-and-tears?showFullText=true

[Cindy]

In Australia, you are incarcerated in the gaol of the gender you identify as.

Thanks a lot to Heather Stokes, a leading defence lawyer who is also trans*, and a friend.

Part of the other post was concerning the importance of speaking out. Heather did, I do, you can.

How?

You write letters to the newspapers. You phone the radio station and tell them on air that they are wrong.

You speak for your sisters and brothers.

Every time one of us talks we shake the tree. Every time one of us presents on TV as a normal person we make people think.

Every time we stand in front of a class room we change the opinion of kids- and they change their parents' opinion.

We are normal men and women, all we have to get across is that message. To be honest, it has been very easy.

You just have to take the first step.

[suzifrommd]

I've got to admit, this one has me stumped. Here's what I'm sure of:
* I don't want our transitions to ever need "approval" by anyone. Even applies to convicts and inmates (who, it turns out, are human beings).
* The timing of our transitions should be up to us. I can easily imagine a transwoman whose dysphoria has been eased by presenting female in private, suddenly wanting to transition on the occasion of a prison sentence, since that would no longer be an option in prison.

However,
* Allowing just anyone to claim they're trans and automatically get access to female penal facilities seems a problem as well.

The best alternative is a facility for MtF (maybe FtM, though don't know how they would feel about being in a women's facility. Might not be as a bad.), but would be a major expense for smaller jurisdictions.

I need to think more about this.

[awilliams1701]

There is a potential problem for MTF and FTM prisons as well. Seeing as how we are minorities in the extreme, they would have very few of these prisons. It might require us to go to another state. With a regular prison you might get lucky and get a halfway decent one or you might get an abusive one. What if all the trans prisons are abusive?

I've got to admit, this one has me stumped. Here's what I'm sure of:
* I don't want our transitions to ever need "approval" by anyone. Even applies to convicts and inmates (who, it turns out, are human beings).
* The timing of our transitions should be up to us. I can easily imagine a transwoman whose dysphoria has been eased by presenting female in private, suddenly wanting to transition on the occasion of a prison sentence, since that would no longer be an option in prison.

However,
* Allowing just anyone to claim they're trans and automatically get access to female penal facilities seems a problem as well.

The best alternative is a facility for MtF (maybe FtM, though don't know how they would feel about being in a women's facility. Might not be as a bad.), but would be a major expense for smaller jurisdictions.

I need to think more about this.

[suzifrommd]

There is a potential problem for MTF and FTM prisons as well. Seeing as how we are minorities in the extreme, they would have very few of these prisons. It might require us to go to another state. With a regular prison you might get lucky and get a halfway decent one or you might get an abusive one. What if all the trans prisons are abusive?

A potential problem, yes, as well as the fact that if you're out of state, hard for loved ones to visit you.

I guess it's just a question of how bad your dysphoria is. Is being in a men's prison bad enough that you're willing to be shipped out of state and risk a bad situation? Trade-offs, yes, but at least gives us a way to avoid being in a men's prison.

[mac1]

I suggest that the only way for the state to house male bodied persons in female facilities is to offer gonadectomy (physical orchidectomy) as a mandatory step prior to it.

A faker would be found out real fast.

It would have to be total removal and not just orchidectomy. I would then accept it.

[Beverly]

However,
* Allowing just anyone to claim they're trans and automatically get access to female penal facilities seems a problem as well.

We have this problem in the UK. In 2011 the requirements were relaxed to allow self-diagnosis and it now appears that exactly the problem you mention is occurring. Since the guidelines were relaxed the numbers of prisoners requesting access to female prisons has increased five-fold. getting treatment for being transsexual in UK prisons is possible and I personally know someone who transitioned in prison. Interestingly, when I was attending my Gender Clinic for an appointment some years ago, a person was brought in handcuffed to some sort of guard/policeman.

It appears that the govt is now considering that being "transgender" is not enough and you have to be a medically monitored and diagnosed transsexual.  It is not mentioned in the article below, but I cannot locate  where I came across it.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/28/uk-prison-officials-concerned-inmates-may-be-identifying-as-transgender-for-a-soft-life/


One interesting loophole is the use of Gender Recognition Certificates. In the UK these are used to get a new birth certificate and they legally changes your gender for ALL legal purposes. So, if someone MTF holding a GRC was arrested and imprisoned, they would have to be sent to a female prison regardless of how they looked. Some who does not hold a GRC is legally male and could be sent to a male prison, even if on hormones and visually female and would have to request a female prison.

I hope this helps your deliberations

[Devlyn]

This is going downhill. Only one person knows if someone is transgender. The person.

Forcing people to have surgery? Unbelievable that I would read that here.

Hugs, Devlyn