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Why is passing so important to us?

Started by suzifrommd, January 16, 2015, 07:29:47 PM

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ThePhoenix

You know, I think there is a big difference in acceptance levels for a person saying they are a crossdresser versus someone transitioning.  What that difference is probably varies depending on their environment. 

If you are in a relatively accepting workplace (for crossdressers), you might get accepted as nothing more than the-same-person-but-likes-to-dress-funny and it might not be a big deal.  Whereas if you came out as trans* and said you were transitioning, you might run into bigger problems because you're asking people to accept that you're not actually the gender they knew you as and they don't buy that, they are panicking about restroom issues, etc.

Or if you are in a not so accepting place (for crossdressers) they might react by not taking it seriously and making it something to laugh at, or thinking of it as a fetish.  Whereas a trans* person transitioning might be considered at least something serious rather than something laughable. 

The point I'm trying to make is that there's a difference, and the difference may result in different responses from people that could be better or worse for one or the other.  I am not saying that one is better than the other. 

And to those who send hate mail:  there's enough hate in this world.  Don't add to it. 
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Jenna Marie on January 18, 2015, 10:21:20 AM
It's important to me because I hate to stand out in *any* way.

Jenna, this really resonates with me. I feel the same way, and it's a big reason why I'm much more comfortable when I'm passing.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 18, 2015, 10:22:28 AM
Someone used my gmail to send me anonymous hate mail about this subject.

Oh, Devlyn, this is awful! Hugs from me. That doesn't belong on a support site (or any site, for that matter).

I'm glad you're not letting the bullies win. You are who you are and have as much right to be here as anyone else. Whatever your identity, you clearly understand where a lot of us are coming from, and you help a lot of people.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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stephaniec

to me this question is as simple and fundamental as Newton's Law Of Gravitation Which has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of P or not P , but has absolutely everything to do with my existence on whether I am able to live or die.
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Tori

Love you Dev. Do not let one anonymous coward get you down.

You have always been there for me, as has another cross dresser I know IRL.

I confess it can be hard some times remembering you identify differently than many women here but you are a strong, amazing and helpful person. Period.


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Cindy

I shall make something VERY clear.

This site is for all. I shall not tolerate people who discriminate against any group.

It amazes me; we of all people who are subject to harassment and ridicule do so to each other?

Sending hate mail to people!! If I become aware of who is acting in such a manner they will not be on this site.
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April_TO

I believe I am classified under Group 2 from Hikari's post. I constantly worry about passing yet in reality, I don't get any stares or if I do it will be usually with men checking me out. I was at the Asian Grocery Store today (I believe Asian people have a special eye to clock you) and not even a single creepy look was given or even if they suspect, the moment they hear my voice the suspicion goes away. However, to me passing is the most important element of my transition. Passing is my affirmation that my transition is valid (Disclaimer: People will hate me for saying this)

However, as the weeks pass and through the help of you ladies my worry fades as I start to face my life head on. And I quote Rupaul, "what people think about you is none of your business, be who you are and screw them all"

To that, I bid you all Good Day.

Kisses,

April

Nothing ventured nothing gained
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Eva Marie

Devlyn receiving hate mail is completely uncalled for. As a community we need to pull together, not pull apart and throw rocks at each other. The world is doing a good job of throwing rocks at us without us throwing rocks too.

The transgender umbrella is a large one, encompassing many different classifications of people. Look at the top of your screen - see what it says there? Susan's Place Transgender resources. I'd also like to point out that Susan's has members from every corner of the globe.

So it follows that we will see a wide cross section of people's life experiences, from every perspective imaginable in threads here.

Devlyn weighed in with her perspective from the place she's at in her life. Is she wrong? Absolutely not. Will some people disagree with her? Probably. That's the nature of a community like this with such a varied population - people can and will bring different perspectives into a topic that might not have been considered by others, and we can all learn something from a different perspective. Its a good thing as long as we stick to civil discourse and avoid pointless and heated arguments.

To send anonymous hate mail because of a disagreement about a thread on this board is way, way past the mark. It solves nothing and only brings hard feelings and pain. Let's be better people than that.

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Jill F

Quote from: Eva Marie on January 18, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
Devlyn receiving hate mail is completely uncalled for. As a community we need to pull together, not pull apart and throw rocks at each other. The world is doing a good job of throwing rocks at us without us throwing rocks too.

The transgender umbrella is a large one, encompassing many different classifications of people. Look at the top of your screen - see what it says there? Susan's Place Transgender resources. I'd also like to point out that Susan's has members from every corner of the globe.

So it follows that we will see a wide cross section of people's life experiences, from every perspective imaginable in threads here.

Devlyn weighed in with her perspective from the place she's at in her life. Is she wrong? Absolutely not. Will some people disagree with her? Probably. That's the nature of a community like this with such a varied population - people can and will bring different perspectives into a topic that might not have been considered by others, and we can all learn something from a different perspective. Its a good thing as long as we stick to civil discourse and avoid pointless and heated arguments.

To send anonymous hate mail because of a disagreement about a thread on this board is way, way past the mark. It solves nothing and only brings hard feelings and pain. Let's be better people than that.

Eva, you hit that one out of the park.   

I may not always agree with everyone here on every issue, and sometimes I read things that I find rude, tasteless and even insulting, but at the end of the day I am here because I care about all of you and want you to be happy.  I have come a long way myself, and I believe that we all can help each other to be more understanding and compassionate toward one another no matter what our differences. 

Hearing that hate mail even happened here really got my blood boiling, and  >:-) -yn, I'm so sorry that happened to you.  We are all better than that.

If you don't like something you read here, please report it before you flame or bash someone over it.  ToS violators will be dealt with by staff. 

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androgynouspainter26

Ugh, this whole thread...see, this is why we can't have nice things.

My need to pass is coming from a number of different places; let me start by saying that in theory, gender bounderies mean nothing to me.  They are something we've created as a society, and I believe that overall, they've done us a lot of harm.  People can choose to do what they wish, and there's nothing wrong with being a masculine man or feminine woman, but that we mandate this behavior from people on the basis of gender is absolutely wrong.  This is in theory.

The reality though is that sometimes, conforming is necessary.  I have a number of goals in my life that have nothing to do with gender; those goals often conflict with my trans-ness.  Firstly, I don't want to think about my gender at all times.  I'm not planning on going stealth or anything, but it'd be nice to get to a point in my life where other people don't think about this so I won't have to.  This is a huge emotional drain on me, and I can't really function when I'm worrying about how other people see me at all times.  If other people know, I'm going to be forced to think about my gender, about how terribly wrong my body is, about everything else that just hasn't worked out so far in my transition.  Passing would give me the opportunity to move on.

Another reason is that transphobia is very real, and I want the privilege that passing affords.  Passing would make it easier for me to get jobs (and in my field, no job lasts longer than a few months).  It would allow me a certain amount of security; that's really, really important.  When you pass, you don't have to worry about being assaulted, or harassed, so long as nobody finds out.  Being trans is not safe, and passibility helps allay the dangers we all face.  I live in the New York metro area; it's not the most dangerous place in the world, but people do get harassed.  They get beaten; a few even get killed.  I don't feel the need to pass because I can't "love myself", or whatever else people here are going to say.  I need to pass because if I can't, I will never be able to feel safe.  That's a big deal in and of itself.

Even when I'm among people who aren't hostile, there are still problems that arise when everyone knows I'm trans.  A big one is dating.  I'm pansexual, but for the most part right now I'm interested in dating women.  Dating lesbians; lesbians like other women.  If I don't look like a woman, whatever that means, a lesbian won't be attracted to me.  That's understandable; I mean, I would never date a trans woman (the whole thing feels a bit too much like dating a cousin).  And dating men is hard too-I have NO interest in dating someone who is attracted to trans women specifically, and the fact is that most guys won't date a girl if she doesn't look like one.  People are only going to be attracted to me if I look cis.  Is this my problem?  No, in theory it's theirs.  But theory evaporates very quickly when I'm all on my own, and the reality of the situation is that I can't expect other people to change.  If I'm ever going to find love, I need to pass.  It's that simple.

Finally-people who are obviously trans just make others uncomfortable.  I'm not saying this in order to insult anyone, and I certainly try not to feel this way, even though I do on occasion.  People just...they're really put off by it.  It's not shocking; we've been trained since birth to be disgusted at the sight of a man in a dress.  I have a friend back at school who is in the early stages of transitioning, and when she's dressed en femme, it feels like she's making it a joke-she wears a cheap, ugly wig, a dress that doesn't fit.  She walks around like a hulking, lanky guy.  Her voice is the same as it always is.  She doesn't even make an effort to be female; all people see is a fake, mockery of a woman.  I feel awful admitting this, but I feel uncomfortable around her.  Everyone else does.  I'm not a joke; I don't want people to see me as a joke.  I don't believe in gender; I'd love to see it gotten rid of.  But my sex is (or should be) female, and the reality is that we live in a world where people do subscribe to the system of gender; if I have to be seen as one or the other, I unequivocally prefer to be seen as a woman.  I'm not a joke; I'm really afraid that people are going to look at me the way they look at my friend.

I'm in the second group, no doubts there...the issue is that I'm close-ish, but not there entirely.  I have a good face, but my brow is really heavy.  My voice and body-language are pretty great, but I'm six feet tall and my hands are the size of my face.  I even have a male digit ratio, if you believe in that sort of thing.  It's not like I look like a man.  More and more often, I mention it offhand like I've gotten used to doing because hey, everyone already knows, and people look confused.  A trans guy once told me when I mentioned my fears around about passing that he had no idea until I told him.  I'm getting there, but...I want people to see me as a real person.  I want people to listen to me, respect me, and be able to love me.  Personally, my fear is that none of these things are going to happen if I can't pass.  That, and my constant worrying about my gender is ruining my life.  It's just too much time and energy for me to keep doing it. 

Thats my perspective on things.
My gender problem isn't half as bad as society's.  Although mine is still pretty bad.
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Lady_Oracle

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 18, 2015, 10:12:34 PM
Another reason is that transphobia is very real, and I want the privilege that passing affords.  Passing would make it easier for me to get jobs (and in my field, no job lasts longer than a few months).  It would allow me a certain amount of security; that's really, really important.  When you pass, you don't have to worry about being assaulted, or harassed, so long as nobody finds out.  Being trans is not safe, and passibility helps allay the dangers we all face.  I live in the New York metro area; it's not the most dangerous place in the world, but people do get harassed.  They get beaten; a few even get killed.  I don't feel the need to pass because I can't "love myself", or whatever else people here are going to say.  I need to pass because if I can't, I will never be able to feel safe.  That's a big deal in and of itself.

This 100%

Like I honestly never felt safe in public until I started passing even though I had started presenting part time prehrt, the anxiety and fear I went through back then was through the roof. I mean I did get a bunch of confidence from those experiences but its not like I didn't have to deal with being laughed at and everyone was super nice with me, quite the opposite. I hate to say it but living like a hermit for awhile protected my mental state and my life itself. I was able to focus on myself without the negativity.. Like even after starting hrt I was still too scared and for good reason. I live in the south and you really have to watch your back around here. Its only been up until last year that I started living my life again (making new friends, going out on the weekends,etc..) and that was all due to the passing privilege I had finally gained.
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Donna Elvira

#50
I have been discussing this thread with my wife over the last couple of days and today at lunch she told me about a documentary she saw a few years ago about cis-females why did extensive plastic-surgery. For most, especially a couple of very masculine looking women, the issue was first and foremost self-acceptance ie. seeing a recognizably female face looking back at them in the mirror. Afterwards came acceptance by society as some of the interviewees had also suffered abuse from others because of their appearance.

Listening to what she had to say, I was struck by how similar it was to what those of us here who consider passing important had to say ie. it's about self-acceptance, fitting in and generally feeling accepted by society. From a very personal standpoint, I would also reinforce what Androgynouspainter had to say in her post. Being around masculine looking trans-women mostly make others feel very uncomfortable, no doubt as it requires a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. I felt incapable of imposing that sort of discomfort on my wife and kids and because of this decided from the outset of my transition that if I wasn't passable, I wasn't going to transition as the costs, to me, would have outweighed the benefits.

Sure you can say I don't care what others think or feel but in doing so, most of the time you are probably condemning yourself to a very lonely existance. As it happens, this also just happens to be much the case for very masculine looking cis-females.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 18, 2015, 10:12:34 PM
I have a friend back at school who is in the early stages of transitioning, and when she's dressed en femme, it feels like she's making it a joke-she wears a cheap, ugly wig, a dress that doesn't fit.  She walks around like a hulking, lanky guy.  Her voice is the same as it always is.  She doesn't even make an effort to be female; all people see is a fake, mockery of a woman. 

AP, I really admire your candor. You're willing to say things that no one else would, and air truths a lot of us would like to keep locked up in the cupboards of your mind.

That being said, the empathetic soul in me can't help but ache at the crushing pressure to conform that your friend must be feeling.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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androgynouspainter26

I feel bad for her too; it's not that she doesn't want to do well in her transition, she's just struggling to do it.  She's mildly autistic, so it might just be that, I don't know, but for the most part she seems either oblivious or uncaring to what people think.  She really wants a relationship though, even more than I do, and I just don't have the heart to tell her that might never happen when she transitions.

Again, I think the need to conform to a specific gender role is a great injustice inflicted on transgender people-and, while I have every intention to fight that injustice, in the meanwhile there are certain realities we as a community need to confront.  I don't want to sound rude, and I really, really don't mean this in a negative way; I am trying not to feel this way, but many others aren't.  If we want to be treated with respect, sometimes assimilation is a necessary evil.  Take my hair for example-I love my haircut!  It's what makes me me, and people compliment it all the time.  However, it does draw undue attention, and even though I love it way more now than whatever the heck my hair will do once I grow it out, I need to do that in order to pass better.  I don't want to conform, not in the slightest.  But the rest of the world does, and I have a career to worry about.  So, passing is very, very important to me even though it's not politically correct for me to say this in the interest of preserving the feelings of people who can't do it.
My gender problem isn't half as bad as society's.  Although mine is still pretty bad.
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Miss_Bungle1991

Quote from: Donna E on January 19, 2015, 06:17:00 AM
Sure you can say I don't care what others think or feel but in doing so, most of the time you are probably condemning yourself to a very lonely existence.

Yeah, that's true.

HOWEVER, If I had been born a genetic female, I would be in the exact same situation socially as I am now. I've been into things that other people considered "weird" or "odd". (Mostly music stuff) So, that put me on the outs with most people. Plus, I'm just not all that interested in meeting new people, locally. Any time that I attempt this, it's a case of "same crap, different day". People want you to fit in to their little social boxes and I'm just not going to do it. If it means I spend the rest of my life alone, then so be it.
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stephaniec

My only problem with this issue of passing is the majority of those that don't perfectly pass. I'll say I think I'm quite lucky myself that my genetics allow me to do all right as far as passing . The problem is  everyone else that has problems whether major or minor in how they feel others perceive them . Society will not change in their attitudes of transitioning people if the only acceptable path is whether or not you make the cut. My attitude is that whatever you want to call our condition every one who has this situation of self perception has the right to feel free of this dysphoria or what ever you want to call it. All the issues involved with transition are do to societies view of us, this will not change as long as the attitude is guided by being in the image of what is acceptable to the majority. ( Disclaimer: this is my personal view and is not to be regarded as any kind of offense to others views which are of equal validity. )
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TamarasWay

( Disclaimer: this is my personal view and is not to be regarded as any kind of offense to others views which are of equal validity. )

It is pretty simple really, if you look, act, or sound differently from what people expect, you will be seen as different.  In many cases, or situations "different" is OK, but there is always what is considered appropriate.  You have the right to "free speech" and self expression, but is it not inappropriate to verbally insult a law enforcement officer or run naked through the streets?
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rachel89

I want to pass because I am unhappy when I see a male body looking back at me in the mirror. I want to see a female body, with a feminine face, female parts, and curves when I look in the mirror, not a "man in a dress".


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AbbyKat

Quote from: rachel89 on January 21, 2015, 01:07:24 AM
I want to pass because I am unhappy when I see a male body looking back at me in the mirror. I want to see a female body, with a feminine face, female parts, and curves when I look in the mirror, not a "man in a dress".

Bam.  Looking in the mirror and seeing ME looking back someday is such an enormous and wonderful thought.
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Carrie Liz

I feel like I have a new perspective on this... because now I've switched from being someone who used to FLIP OUT about how passing was the most important thing in the world, to now being more or less okay with it if someone misgendered me by mistake, or clocked me as trans.

The difference is that I finally reached a point where I was more or less comfortable with my own appearance, and confident. My mindset switched from "OMG, they misgendered me, they're staring at me, that means I'm not a really girl, I deserve to get misgendered, I don't deserve female pronouns or to be accepted as a girl" to "they made a mistake. I'm a woman, they just didn't notice."

The difference wasn't that other people suddenly started treating me any differently, the difference was that I finally reached the point where I was able to look in the mirror and feel "female enough" for myself. Before, I was a bit ashamed of calling myself a woman because I was so hung up on others' judgments, where now I'm unashamed about it, I AM a woman. It's something innate, and it's not up for debate or invalidation from someone else.

That's the thing about gender. In our binary system, it's not up for debate which one you are, you're either one sex or the other. And it was a huge deal for me when I realized that I DID have the right to call myself female, along with all of the connotations that come with it, instead of focusing on all of the things that somehow in my own eyes invalidated my femaleness.



So yeah... I know people complain a LOT about people who are post-transition and passable telling people who are still in-transition and unpassable that passing isn't important. But no, in the grand scheme of things it's not passing that makes one reach their comfort point where they don't worry about it anymore, it's being happy with yourself. This is why so many people who aren't passable are able to be perfectly happy, because they're happy with themselves, unashamed of themselves, and unashamed of being the people they know they are even though they don't pass. For a lot of people it does indeed take passing to reach this point. And admittedly it did for me. It took me a good 4 months of working my first post-transition job and not a single co-worker caring about or even seeming to notice my trans status before I finally got over my shame and reached a point where I finally could accept myself. But this is also why many people, even if they do pass, even if they're beautiful, NEVER feel like it's enough, and can still never do anything but be hung up on the things that supposedly invalidate their own gender, even though every other person in the world is looking at them and seeing a cis person to their eyes. Even if passing does help, really when you get down to it, it's all in the head. It's all about reaching that point where YOU feel comfortable with yourself.

But in general, even though it's definitely not a requirement for happiness or for self-acceptance, passing does indeed help. According to this study, http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/01/28/3214581/transgender-suicide-attempts/ Among those trans people who felt like they were immediately read as trans most of the time, their attempted-suicide rate was 45%. Among those who felt that others could not tell that they were trans, that number drops to 36%. Attempted-suicide rates among those who are "out" are 50%, and only 33% among those who are stealth.

So yeah, these numbers I feel are consistent with what I'm saying. Passing DOES help some people feel more accepting of themselves. But it's not the sole determinant of happiness and self-acceptance. Lots of passable stealth people still are so miserable that they attempt suicide, and lots of unpassable "out" people have no problems at all.
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Jake25

For me personally it has to do with expressing how I feel on the inside. That's why I like clothing, and want to have as male an appearance as possible. My image and how the rest of the world views me should match how I feel. I will feel more comfortable when my image matches how I feel and everyone sees the true Jake. I don't believe anyone would want to represent themselves wrongly to the rest of the world.
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