Stealth issues... need opinion.

[2cherry]

I disclosed my history to him when he propose marriage, our relationship did survive, we eventually got married and we're now husband and wife.

Wow, sounds like a dream to me... not sure if I would be able to summon that courage. yet. Any tips?

[2cherry]

After giving it some more thoughts and thinking about your opinions, I think I will decide to let him go.

My main reason is that we aren't sexually compatible. He just too big for me. He is about twice as big as any other guy I've seen. I just can't handle it, and I actually feel sorry for him to say no just because we're incompatible on the sexual front. But it is the truth, no matter how much I like him. I can't see how this will ever work. I can't stretch beyond what he's already trying to give me. And that's reaaally stretching it.

I read many stories from cis woman who just can't take men who are well endowed. I think the stretching vagina is a kind of myth as well, as I've read that most vagina's (canal) are in the range of 3-5 inches, until it hits the uterus and be painful. He blames it on me, but I think he's trying to shift the blame. He knows he's big, and I think he is frustrated about it and had many encounters with other woman who refused him. He might have picked me because I am tall and he expected me to be bigger down there... I am not sure, but this is my gut instinct.

Anyway, maybe another woman can appreciate him more than I can. I simply can't enjoy sex this way. He's bigger than my own toys, and those are big as well... I am amazed I can take my own toys, never thought I would/could, so that is saying a lot.

So yeah, I guess that's my main reason which solves all others as well. I think he will find another woman who will be more compatible than me, and I hope that he does because he deserves great sex as well as I do.

So indeed, I am putting this down to experience, cry a little bit, eat some chocolate (already do  ) and move on...

Life isn't easy... but hey, no one ever said it would be easy.

[suzifrommd]

He blames it on me, but I think he's trying to shift the blame.

Definitely a red flag.

You're listening to your gut. Every woman needs to know how to do that. Good for you, Cherry.

Hugs and encouragement. Stay strong.

[chinee05]

To 2cherry,

Dont worry, you are not alone in this kind of situation. I myself decided to live and date in stealth mode after I had my srs operation. Based on my experience, there are only 2 outcomes most of the time when you come out.

Preop:
1. Men will be devastated that you still have a penis
2. Men will try to consider it but will just use you for sex and youre done

Post op:
1. Men will not accept your history and walk away
2. Men will consider you but not for a serious relationship

This is purely based on my experience but Im not saying that there are no men who can accept us. Im just saying that most of the time, thats the outcome for most guys. I also found out that most of those accepting men are those men who had a trans experience already or those who were attracted to ts women to begin with.

I know how frustrating it is to live in stealth specially when you are going into a relationship. The hard part is the intimacy part that you should be prepared to all kinds of questions in case of emergency. Not to mention the part where you always have to secretly put lube in your vagina before sex. And also the foreplay part where the guys getting upclose to your neovagina (this worries me a lot).

And dont worry, I also get that comment a lot from biggy guys about the tightness of our  neovagina.

This is my strategy for dating101. I date a guy in stealth and get to know him well. Then I will check if we are compatible in bed and if we both satisfy each others intimately. Once theres a spark and we both decided to try going to a serious relationship (including me proving that he is worth it and not violent or something) this is the time that I would tell him the truth. Cis men tends to reject trans women either because of the stigma or just because its too much for them.

Its the same as buying a different brand of makeup that you never tried before and the only way you would change your mind is if you get a free trial (Sorry for my example... Im just saying)

At least at this point of time he already knows you well and you are no different with cis women. This is just my opinion

[Cindi Jones]

I told my guy on our second date when he started to go beyond fresh. We had been friends for some time before that so we knew each other pretty well. I felt i had two choices to get him to stop: kick him in the groin, or tell him the truth and letting him know I didn't want him to regret anything. It didn't even stop him. His hormones were whipped up and he told me that he loved me all the more for telling him. 24 years later, he left for another woman and cited the transgender thing as the reason. He said he became homophobic about me. He hadn't touched me in ten years. I just thought it was the middle age guy thing. He stole my youth. I wish he would have told me a decade ago.

I have very mixed feelings about telling someone. I don't personally know of any cis/trans relationship that has ever lasted. I'm sure there are those out there. But let's face it, it's pretty rare. I think I shall live the rest of my life single. I don't want to go through any of that crap again. IF I ever get asked out, I'll just be upfront and tell the person that it's just for fun and I am not open to new relationships.

I think if you are very young when you transition, why tell anyone? If you have a history or a family that just can't keep their mouths shut, you are going to have to choose between your new mate or your family if you go stealth. And if you have a history, the lies are endless. That is not a good foundation for a healthy relationship.

Cindi

Cindi

[2cherry]

The hard part is the intimacy part that you should be prepared to all kinds of questions in case of emergency. Not to mention the part where you always have to secretly put lube in your vagina before sex. And also the foreplay part where the guys getting upclose to your neovagina (this worries me a lot).

Yes. I grabbed the lube with him seeing it, and then he asked why. Maybe I try to rub it a couple of minutes before... never thought about it. But I know from other cis woman, they use lube also. So it''s a bit weird... he said something along the lines: I don't think you enjoyed it, after we were done. So he seems to think that being wet is equal to enjoying sex.

Ooooo yes... the foreplay issue... I have it had once! it was a very strange experience... can't say I enjoyed that, men seem to be very rough with the clitoris.

[2cherry]

I told my guy on our second date when he started to go beyond fresh. We had been friends for some time before that so we knew each other pretty well. I felt i had two choices to get him to stop: kick him in the groin, or tell him the truth and letting him know I didn't want him to regret anything. It didn't even stop him. His hormones were whipped up and he told me that he loved me all the more for telling him. 24 years later, he left for another woman and cited the transgender thing as the reason. He said he became homophobic about me. He hadn't touched me in ten years. I just thought it was the middle age guy thing. He stole my youth. I wish he would have told me a decade ago.

I'm so sorry Cindi! that's is truly heartbreaking... *hugs!*

which -again- make me re-think this so-called "honesty" and telling someone.

I have very mixed feelings about telling someone. I don't personally know of any cis/trans relationship that has ever lasted. I'm sure there are those out there. But let's face it, it's pretty rare. I think I shall live the rest of my life single. I don't want to go through any of that crap again. IF I ever get asked out, I'll just be upfront and tell the person that it's just for fun and I am not open to new relationships.

I think if you are very young when you transition, why tell anyone? If you have a history or a family that just can't keep their mouths shut, you are going to have to choose between your new mate or your family if you go stealth. And if you have a history, the lies are endless. That is not a good foundation for a healthy relationship.

Cindi

Cindi

I am still thinking about my options... with being "honest"... I mean, people also don't tell they had genital warts 2 weeks ago, now do they? would you go down with someone who told you he/she had warts a couple of weeks ago? prolly not... so why tell? it's disgusting, but it's in the past. It's about the now, the present, not the past.

My family broke with me, and I moved town. My complete history is pretty much erased. Few know about me, so that's a good thing for being stealth. If I move again, nobody will know. I might do that some day. I think I deserve to live in the present, not the past. People get what they see, and if they like it, what's is so dishonest about that, me thinks... 

[Cindi Jones]

And that's why I will sometimes agree with people who say you need to come out. Do people talk about their nose job? I realize that these are different but in many ways they are similar. We know who we are. Why MUST we tell all if we don't want to? I told him everything about myself yet he neglected to tell me he had never paid his child support. I was sued by Arizona for that support and had his son not been living with us and had I not loved that boy, I would have booted my hubby out on the street. He never paid me back. Even now he says "that's just part of being married." Right. That was non communal property that he refuses to acknowledge in the divorce. We both agree on how much it was, but the investment company didn't keep those records. Neither did I. I mean 24 years?

I think once you come out of stealth, you do run risks for future jobs and happiness. I suppose it all boils down to what you can live with. Certainly, I could not do that. I had a life. I have a family. I have too much history to hide. So, that's where I am.

Cindi

[Rejennyrated]

All I will say is that I was young enough not to have to come out, and of course 30 years  ago there was less information about everything so it was easier to slip by unnoticed - I chose to live out, but not to "advertise" that is to say its an open secret. I don't routinely announce myself, but I generally let people know. I've had a stellar career, I've had a 25 year relationship which only ended when I was widowed, I've had a family, I've been an active member of my communities. Has it affected my life? Have I lost anything? Has anyone treated me any different? NO! So go figure?

There is no given to this. Some of us are lucky, some are unlucky, just like in the rest of life. If you are out, it may cause some problems, but I'm the living proof that it's not inevitable that it will.

If you are in stealth, it may go well, but many murders and violent breakups, when the mask slips as it almost always does eventually, prove that can be a fairly high risk strategy.

Sadly, while you must make a choice, the way I see it, neither choice has a guarrantee of the outcome. The choice is between an option (being out) which might range from very good to very bad outcome, or stealth, which ranges from a absolutely perfect outcome to a very small chance of being dead. I personally prefer to aim slightly lower but play safe.

[pretty pauline]

This is my strategy for dating101. I date a guy in stealth and get to know him well. Then I will check if we are compatible in bed and if we both satisfy each others intimately. Once theres a spark and we both decided to try going to a serious relationship (including me proving that he is worth it and not violent or something) this is the time that I would tell him the truth. Cis men tends to reject trans women either because of the stigma or just because its too much for them.

At least at this point of time he already knows you well and you are no different with cis women. This is just my opinion

It is a good strategy, may not work for everybody but worked ok for me up to a point, disclosing early in the relationship never works, the guy walks away and maybe lucky he doesn't get violent. We got on so well, our relationship was serious, then he propose marriage and engagement, it was a big mind wrestling decision, better to hear it from me, than somebody else, I told him everything, his reaction was shock and surprise, but grateful for my honesty, we worked it out, it was a big relief off my shoulders.
He now knows my history, we're married 5 years this August as husband & wife, but his family doesn't know, he is very adamant and determined that they never find out. I can fully understand that, it's still very much a stigma, people's attitudes can be so negative, family and friends stereotype everything, he doesn't need to handle the ridcule and mockery  ''omg his wife used to be a man''
We don't go there, he fully and completely accepts me as a woman, that's all that matters.

And also the foreplay part where the guys getting upclose to your neovagina (this worries me a lot).

And dont worry, I also get that comment a lot from biggy guys about the tightness of our  neovagina.

I got that a few times, but it doesn't worry me, every woman's vagina is different, some guys like it tight, I've got complements such as ''nice tight pussy'' a wow factor with some guys.

He hadn't touched me in ten years. I just thought it was the middle age guy thing. He stole my youth. I wish he would have told me a decade ago.

I have very mixed feelings about telling someone. I don't personally know of any cis/trans relationship that has ever lasted. I'm sure there are those out there. But let's face it, it's pretty rare.

I'm so sorry Cindi, can I ask you, did you see it coming, was there any warning signs, we've last 5 years so far, hopefully another 5 and the rest, best wishes Cindi for the future.

[Cindi Jones]

I'm so sorry Cindi, can I ask you, did you see it coming, was there any warning signs, we've last 5 years so far, hopefully another 5 and the rest, best wishes Cindi for the future.

Warning signs? I suppose there were warning signs all over the place during our entire relationship. But me being trans... well, I thought that he was basically a good man. I did pay all of the household bills and spent tens of thousands on his toys. I made a good salary. I thought it made him happy and boy did it. It wasn't until I became disabled and he saw that I couldn't do the things I used to do that things started going south. That was about four years ago. He started to abuse me verbally and emotionally. He'd intentionally wake me at 5:30 AM, knowing I'd been up sick all night and had just fallen asleep. This happened nearly every night FWIW. I bought a good set of headphones for him and he refused to use them until the very last day... the day he told me in the afternoon.

He moved me into a back room and verbally knocked me if I used the house's common spaces. Sadly, I learned to live with that. He continued to tell me every week that he loved me and couldn't live without me. He bragged about all of my accomplishments and how smart I was to his friends. He'd bring them home to meet me.

Meanwhile, he'd take month long biking trips and leave me with no money. I couldn't buy gas or food. But he'd come home and tell me how much he had missed me and how good it was to see me again. He'd buy me flowers and take me to a nice restaurant. Yes, then the next day, abusive action. My therapist diagnosed me with Stockholm Syndrome and I've been working through it for nearly a year. He's been gone 6 months.

So, we had some hard times and some great times. And the past four years have been miserable. I suppose lots of people go through similar problems so I'm not complaining. Now I'm free. I'm working on the divorce. He refuses to communicate in any way. We shall see what happens. If I don't get the divorce papers back from him this week, I suppose we'll go to court. I may get much more doing it that way, but I decided to be nice about it and go by the spirit of the law. If we get legal, he could be in a world of hurt.

Cindi

[2cherry]

It has become one interesting thread indeed... 

Amazing and heartbreaking story, Cindi... it seems you've been through a lot.

Some further thoughts about stealth...

While we are all different, we all share the same condition. It seems that many people live under the shadow of ulterior motive, in some shape or form. It is said that a relationship is built on trust, but I am not sure that it truly is. Psychology tells that everybody lies. Lying is essential for social cohesion. I don't see being stealth as lying, it actually has some parallels in being genuine.

I think that I am not obliged to retrograde the past and share every minute issue with every new person that I meet, and excuse myself for every detail in life. I like to fantasize that everyone has some secret they will never share with anyone. There seems to be this burden to completely disclose and confess everything once we step out the closet. As if we are expected to be an open book for anyone who inquires us. A kind of mental groping. And I don't like that situation and the demands that are being put on us. My past is like the tree from last winter; leafless, bleak and boring. It's nothing like today. 

And as long these warped narratives, like: "Man becoming a Woman" exists,  I will continue to take on the cloak of stealth. Which actually means that I live my full potential and genuine truth and won't excuse myself having had medical issues. I am not signing up for insurance where I need to disclose and fill out a questionnaire. No, I am in love and and I date another human being who incidentally likes me for who I am today, not some haunted ghost in the attic of my mind, someone I never was...

As it currently stands, I don't think I will disclose anything to anyone anymore. If some ask, I guess then they already know and even then I will not disclose anything unless they share something similar and profound. In the end, it is nobody's business even if you never be able to pass. They will never know for sure. And that's fine. I am no longer a victim of circumstances, nor a heroine who conquered some horrendous struggle. I guess I am becoming normal, which is quite hilarious in some sense.

I tasted what it is like living as a female, and although the complete experience was brief, it made all the pain of transitioning vanish. I like to taste more. Maybe it is a kind of psychological heaven, a blissful dream that became reality, it truly felt good and it made me happy. And isn't happiness one of our main goals in life? I like to think it is.

[Cindi Jones]

You know, Cherry. That man of mine is going to have to keep a mighty big secret with his new honey for the rest of HIS life. I could destroy his relationship with a one sentence email to HER. But that is not my style. I think that the best thing for me is to just let it go. The thing is, to me, a big secret not shared is a lie by definition. That is just the way I choose to live my life. So, when I do get very close to someone, I will tell them. While we were together, we had an agreement that I would tell no one. Now, since he's gone, I've told three close friends. They bought my book and read it which answered many questions and got the basic stuff out of the way. They are all cool with it and have no issues whatsoever.

I'll not tell his family. He can choose to bury that secret even though after 24 years, they are my family too. They live in another state and I suppose I'll eventually just fade away. I hate to think that because I have very mixed feelings about "our" son and his family. He and his wife call me every week without exception. My son has talked to his dad three times since the break up and it's been six months. I am emotionally attached to them and perhaps we should have a heart to heart talk. Do they deserve to know the truth? I believe that they do. But it will be a shocker to them. And it will infuriate my hopefully soon to be ex. I dwell on this a lot. Perhaps too much. Maybe the truth untold is the best way to go for me. If I were to see them on a weekly basis, I'd go for the truth. Where I see them only once or twice a year, I don't know. What do y'all think?

Cindi

[joannaelyse]

To 2cherry,

Dont worry, you are not alone in this kind of situation. I myself decided to live and date in stealth mode after I had my srs operation. Based on my experience, there are only 2 outcomes most of the time when you come out.

Preop:
1. Men will be devastated that you still have a penis
2. Men will try to consider it but will just use you for sex and youre done

Post op:
1. Men will not accept your history and walk away
2. Men will consider you but not for a serious relationship

I really don't agree with this. I know you said it's based on your experience, but I think these kind of ideas serve as barriers to us actually being able to find someone! If that's what you believe, that's what you're going to find. Here's what I've found.

I've done everything, telling up front, waiting after a date, waiting until the point of a serious relationship and not saying anything. I really don't think that when you tell matters as much as what the guy is like. I have dated guys who were completely fine with it and saw me for the woman I was. I would say it's not as rare as you think: maybe 50/50. The reason I'm single today is not because I'm trans but because the guys that were okay with it were not compatible with me for other reasons.

Don't believe the negative thoughts and stories out there that no one will accept you. If you accept yourself, and love yourself and live authentically, your prince charming will come. Know that!!! You're all beautiful.

Okay I'm done.

[joannaelyse]

Actually, I'm not done. I used to really believe the logic that I should just live as a woman and never tell anyone, but I've come to realize that being assigned male at birth does NOT negate my womanhood. It is something I don't wear on my sleeve but it is something I never lie about.

To be stealth I feel is to carry a lot of shame and self-loathing. You are constantly trying to re-write your history. The only way to find true love is to be vulnerable and allow someone to know who YOU are. I think a life partner should know more about their love than anyone else in the world. Don't try to become someone else for them. Allow them to love you for who you are!

If you don't want to tell right away, that's your choice. But if you NEVER tell I really think that's a bad plan.

[Eva]

I really don't agree with this. I know you said it's based on your experience, but I think these kind of ideas serve as barriers to us actually being able to find someone! If that's what you believe, that's what you're going to find. Here's what I've found.

I've done everything, telling up front, waiting after a date, waiting until the point of a serious relationship and not saying anything. I really don't think that when you tell matters as much as what the guy is like. I have dated guys who were completely fine with it and saw me for the woman I was. I would say it's not as rare as you think: maybe 50/50. The reason I'm single today is not because I'm trans but because the guys that were okay with it were not compatible with me for other reasons.

Don't believe the negative thoughts and stories out there that no one will accept you. If you accept yourself, and love yourself and live authentically, your prince charming will come. Know that!!! You're all beautiful.

Okay I'm done.

Well Im not as far along as all of you (still pre op) here but I appreciate this post because Ive been rejected by a lot of men now who I thought might really be interested in more than just easy sex on the down low... I dont have much of a choice but to be upfront with men and I have dreamed of the day I can try going 100% stealth and hopefully no longer deal with the painful rejection again and again... Its becoming clear to me though that even very successful SRS isn't really gonna change who I am in that I'll never be able to not be "trans", its who I am like it or not... Id obviously rather not be and I intend to keep doing everything I can to feminize including SRS... But Ive struggled with just how far to go??? I mean I dream of completely eliminating any traces of my past and just living a 100% different life as a woman... I doubt thats really possible though after living 44 years as a male... So no matter how well I can ever "pass" I'll never really be able to escape my past   Even If I didnt have to worry about having the wrong parts for a woman and no matter how much I felt Im a woman it just seems like too much to try to hide from someone I had feelings for...

So I guess all I can do is keep going and keep hope alive that the right man will come along and love me for me and be able to overlook my past despite knowing about it no matter how far along I am... Id hope it wasn't something that was brought up much at all and he could just see me as I am now not who I was... I intend to keep working on changing things for the better and getting rid of and letting go of things from my past for sure.... But I cant see the value in worrying and waiting until this or that is done or gone from my life before I can expect to find a loving partner.... It will hopefully happen sooner rather than later....

Some of my favorite sayings are "the past does not equal the future", "you are the sum of your thoughts" and "you become what you think about"... Just because things went a certain way in the past does not mean that's how they will go in the future as long as you don't hold on to limiting beliefs.... I do know things are much more likely to happen and go the way you want them to if you truly believe that its possible  Sure really putting that into practice is easier said than done but really what else can you do

[pretty pauline]

You know, Cherry. That man of mine is going to have to keep a mighty big secret with his new honey for the rest of HIS life. I could destroy his relationship with a one sentence email to HER. But that is not my style.

I'll not tell his family. He can choose to bury that secret even though after 24 years, they are my family too.

Hi Cindi, you've answered your own question, it's not your style, that secret will be a heavy burden on his mind, you won't have to do anything, if you where to set the cat among the pigeons, you would probably come out of it worse and he would label you a ''vindictive woman'' just out for revenge, than there's the collateral damage to other people you love and care about.
Silence is golden sometimes, keep your self respect, hold your head high, as far as he is concerned, the chickens will eventually come home to roost, it will happen, sooner or later, then you'll be glad you never sent any email to the OTHER WOMAN. A big secret is a big burden, let him deal with it.
You've a lot of respect here.
Best Wishes
Pauline

[Cindi Jones]

Hi Cindi, you've answered your own question, it's not your style, that secret will be a heavy burden on his mind, you won't have to do anything, if you where to set the cat among the pigeons, you would probably come out of it worse and he would label you a ''vindictive woman'' just out for revenge, than there's the collateral damage to other people you love and care about.
Silence is golden sometimes, keep your self respect, hold your head high, as far as he is concerned, the chickens will eventually come home to roost, it will happen, sooner or later, then you'll be glad you never sent any email to the OTHER WOMAN. A big secret is a big burden, let him deal with it.
You've a lot of respect here.
Best Wishes
Pauline

Wow, thanks Pauline. That was extremely helpful and supportive. Many nights I haven't been able to sleep and I write her emails I know I will never send. My therapist thinks it's good to get out of my system to write them but she suggests to let it go as well. BUT I am coming to realize, he's going to worry about this for probably the rest of his life.

Thank you. You made my day.

Cindi

[2cherry]

A short update.

I am still mulling over your comments / replies. They really make me think. I try to apply them to my own opinions, and distill a kind of essence from it in order to make well informed decisions. Living stealth is not a trivial matter.

Currently I have two men in my life, and a third "prospect". Cupid is having a field day with his arrows. I never could imagine that my life would be so joyous as it is right now. All the hurdles and barriers I took and broke, seems to be rewarded with a life I dreamt of. Whether or not stealth is a desirable situation, I take my transition as an experience that I had. I am not my transition, I am not my experience. I had a certain experience, and I won't confuse or identify with the experience anymore. I am not a victim, I simply had bad luck as most of us do. I won't let it define me anymore, because I know where that treacherous road will end;

A few years back I stood in the woods with a noose in my hand, willing to throw my life from the branch of a tree. I was alone, nature was silent and calm. It accepted anything I was going to do to myself. I listened to my pain and I found out that dying so easy. Living is tough. But living stealth requires a whole new level of strength and courage. Still, it is worth it. Living as a transsexual and wearing it on my sleeve is the easy part. Going stealth, is choosing life. Choosing to succeed.  I've thrown away the noose I tied. Nobody tied it but me, and it is time to accept the full responsibility of my actions. Keeping the noose as a remembrance or safety net is an act of fear, it is not choosing life. Throwing away the noose is a symbol of moving past my experiences,  ascending to transcend my experiences.

It is such a strange experience when you go from:

    "I will never be able to pass, and will never find a man"

Towards:

    "I pass, and I am not sure how I can manage all this attention from men".

This Universe truly blessed me. As they say: God helps those who help themselves. I firmly believe in this statement.

[marsh monster]

When you don't tell someone that you are being intimate with that you are trans, aren't you keeping them from making their own choices on what type of person they are being intimate with?  Just seems wrong to do that to anyone. I mean, you know a lot of guys are uncomfortable with being intimate with someone that used to be the same sex as them, but its ok to withhold that from them knowing that if they knew the truth, they likely wouldn't be interested in consensual intimacy?