250Hz but still sounds masculine...

[kim27]

Well, it's been 6 and a half months since I went to Yeson and my voice pitch is a comfortable 250 Hz.  The pitch is of course a massive improvement and sounds soon much better than pre-surgery.  There still seems to be a significant amount of bass in my voice and it just sounds off - even at 250 Hz, still sounds masculine.  Just wondering if anyone has any advice on how to improve it a little?

Thanks in advance.

Kim.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sCWS3vBgaH

[Lady_Oracle]

About to go to bed but I will chime back in later and post a recording of my own to help explain things better.

[kim27]

Thank you - appreciated...

About to go to bed but I will chime back in later and post a recording of my own to help explain things better.

[thegreenrabbit]

Listened to the recording. It seems to lack variation in pitch. Sounds almost monotone.

[marsh monster]

I agree with the above poster, it does sound monotone. Also a bit squeezed. I'm thinking that you might be pushing it too high.

[Laura_7]

You could try a few things:
-speaking slower and more pronunciated. Men tend to slur language a bit, women tend to speak a bit more exact.

-trying speaking a bit more softer and breathier

-more intonation. Intonation with women is almost like a dance, going up and down much more, for example often going up at the end of a sentence, but also within words. Really? spoken by a man would go up slightly at the end... spoken by a women it would go up in the middle and again at the end, and much more.

Fot more pointers you could look here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,189191.msg1683308.html#msg1683308


hugs

[mmmmm]

This is why voice training, preferably with voice therapist, is much more important than any surgery. What surgery will do is only to raise a pitch, and allow you to speak at higher frequency a lot easier. And that's it. If your speaking voice sounded masculine before, it will still sound masculine after, only little higher. It's not about the pitch, although surgical alteration of pitch, can be helpful. It's about learning how to speak with your natural voice, in your natural range, using the feminine resonance, and learning the feminine speak pattern (which extremly varies on where you live). Trying to speak in higher than natural pitch, will sound the least feminine, as women don't do that. Only transwomen who are just learning their voice, and female impersonators do this.
I suggest you to find a voice/speaking therapist in your area, and start working with them regularly, like 2 times per week, which comes with a LOT of homework practice. 

[Dena]

Sorry for being a bit late to the party but I had problems creating an ID.
Being trained to hear problems in regular voices long before surgically altered voices were possible, I am going to assume what I am hearing is the same as a regular voice. The pitch is plenty high and could be a bit lower while still sounding good. What I hear is a strangled voice. My doctor treated hollywood stars with the same issue and they were his specialty A strangled voice is when the voice is pushed beyond it's limits and that could be low or high pitch as well as attempting to get far to much volume out of it. It can cause damage if used over the long term but often can be treated by remaining in the correct range and resting the voice as much as possible. In your case it sounds like you are pitching your voice so high that it is breaking. I would suggest you pick a time when your voice is rested then starting low hum a note. Repeat again with each note being a little bit higher. Observe how well your voice projects and if it is breaking. Your new pitch will be the range that you can project well and below the point where your voice breaks. Also be careful not to try for to much volume. From other surgeries I have had, small changes in healing can take 1-2 years and you may gain volume and range as time goes on.

I think the pitch is fine but you need somebody else to tell you what your voice sounds like. I hear an almost higher than normal voice that needs to be a bit lower. I also think you may need some training to add some more range at a lower frequency but the strangled voice makes it hard to diagnose any secondary issues that might be there. If you get the voice where it is comfortable and make another recording, I would be happy to listen to it and see what I can pick up on.

[kittenpower]

Have you tried using your throat muscles to open your airway a little more, as it could help resolve the "strangled" sound we are hearing.

[iKate]

There is  lot of resonance which seems to be the problem. Yeson should have provided some vocal exercises in a video to help with this.

I agree that it sounds monotone as well, like a robot voice almost.

[kwala]

Hi, kim27 thanks for sharing your recording.  I'm not an expert but I hear some similarities in your voice to mine, so I will share with you some things that I've done and maybe you will find them useful.  I hear a lot of sound vibrating in your nose which makes it sound strained and stuffy.  I would first try to hum in a comfortable range while pinching your nose.  If you hear and feel a buzzing sensation, it means your soft palate could be too open.  Try consciously to move the sound down from your nose and into your mouth.  Another way to practice this is to pretend you have to sneeze and just before you would normally say "achooo" instead let out a controlled "Ah" vowel sound and hold it.  When that becomes comfortable do the same exercise but start a short sentence or phrase.  I don't think you are as far away from a feminine voice as you may think.  Pitch is, for many people, the biggest struggle and you obviously have no issue with that.  Now, it's about finding the right resonant space for the voice you want.  Hope this can be useful and let us know how you progress

[kim27]

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that have taken the time to reply.  There are a few useful ideas there to try - I know it won't be an overnight thing  

Thanks again,

Kim.

[anjaq]

Hi.

I try to emphasize this a lot when talking about VFS. Pitch is just one part, you basically should be able to make a female sounding voice before VFS - at any pitch that you can reach there, ideally also at a lower pitch. If that works, a pitch raising surgery like VFS (which at Yeson stands actually more for "vocal fold shortening" than for "voice feminization surgery") helps and makes it easier. But it cannot feminize all of the voice.

My educated guess about what I hear in the recording is: The pitch is too high - unless you had a female pitch range pre-op, the pitch should not be this high but rather near the G or A. Yours is apparently close to the middle C. I can imagine that you got used to that range due to the Yeson exercises which use a lot of pitches for exercising that are at the middle C or above. But this is not the goal, the goal is an average female pitch range which is more a G or A, so about 200 Hz and not 250 or more. My gues sis, also from the way the voice sounds like, that you are consciously or subconsciously forcing up the pitch. This has two effects - it sounds "squeezed" and unnatural - and you are trapped in a small range below the breaking point to the head voice, which is usually a bit above the middle C. So if you speak just a bit below the middle C, your voice has not much room to the top to move before it goes into the head voice, which means unless you use the head voice, you will sound monotonous and this is what happens in the recording.

Consequently you definitely have to lower the voice into a range that is truely natural for you. It is a it hard to find out where that point is post OP, I am stuggling with that as well, but doing the lip flutter exercise without sound and then consciously relaxing your throat, all your jaw and neck muscles and then adding a soft and not very loud, breathy vowel like "u" to it may give you an idea. Or just sigh - Do a "Hmmm" as if in agreement so something someone tells you. This may also be a hint of the natural pitch now.

The next thing then is to work on the transition into head voice. Check out what happens at the voice break. If you do the Yeson exercises and you do the lip trills and humming glissandos (going from lowest to highst possible note), you should inevitably pass over the voice break. Also when you do the stepwise pitch increase exercises - humming or singing mmmiiii at a pitch ranging from C to G, you should as well go into the head voice. Maybe start the exercises at a lower pitch then. I usually do them over a full octave from G below the middle C to the G above the middle C - That way I do train my chest voice , which is the speaking voice, as well as my head voice. Speaking should happenb in the chest voice, I think you have probably too much head voice in the speaking voice, which sounds "falsetto".

The reason it sounds falsetto and not like a female singing voice is the resonance - this is the hardest but most crucial part. Yeson try to teach this with those "ng-aaah" exercises, but I find they are insufficient. You will have to use some other exercises - ideally a voice coach or voice therapist, maybe the FYFV videos also may help you. I think it is easier to learn this pre-op  as the coaches and instructions are all designed for pre op voices, but they should also work post op.

[Amy1988]

Well, it's been 6 and a half months since I went to Yeson and my voice pitch is a comfortable 250 Hz.  The pitch is of course a massive improvement and sounds soon much better than pre-surgery.  There still seems to be a significant amount of bass in my voice and it just sounds off - even at 250 Hz, still sounds masculine.  Just wondering if anyone has any advice on how to improve it a little?

Thanks in advance.

Kim.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sCWS3vBgaH

I think resonance is the problem.  As far as I know voice surgery can't change resonance and it resonance that makes the voice sound male.  Resonance is like the difference between a trumpet and a tuba.  Both instruments can play the exact same note at the exact same pitch but the tuba still sounds like a tuba.  Very bassy.  The same analogy applies to the male and female voice.  Male voice is the tuba and the female voice is the trumpet.  It's resonance that make the female voice sound female not pitch. A female with a pitch in the male range still sounds very female because the resonance is female.  That's the reason I've put off voice surgery.  Until they can change the resonance, to me it's a waste of money.

[anjaq]

Male voice is the tuba and the female voice is the trumpet.  It's resonance that make the female voice sound female not pitch. A female with a pitch in the male range still sounds very female because the resonance is female.  That's the reason I've put off voice surgery.  Until they can change the resonance, to me it's a waste of money.

Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet
But as I said, it has to "click" and Yeson exercises may not be enough for everyone to get there. I see what they are trying to do there, with the humming sound vibrating in the cheeks (forward, projection resonance) and the ng-ah exercises (soft palate training) and the glissandos (transitioning into head voice and then use a mixed voice instead of a pure chest voice with chest resonance). But without feedback of a voice trainer, they only make sens if you already had voice training and know what to watch out for.

[Laura_7]

Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet
But as I said, it has to "click" and Yeson exercises may not be enough for everyone to get there. I see what they are trying to do there, with the humming sound vibrating in the cheeks (forward, projection resonance) and the ng-ah exercises (soft palate training) and the glissandos (transitioning into head voice and then use a mixed voice instead of a pure chest voice with chest resonance). But without feedback of a voice trainer, they only make sens if you already had voice training and know what to watch out for.

Well since many people have done this alone imo the most important point is consistent training.

There are packs available with speech exercises etc.
But people get motivated in the beginning and disillusioned after a few weeks.
So imo it might speed it up some, but it nevertheless takes time.

Its simply that muscles have to be trained, and its important to stop before the voice becomes overstrained. So it simply takes months to get a voice which holds for longer than a few minutes.

What helped some people was to raise their voices some until they feel like a click and are in another register. This might take some time. And its not necessary to go too high like falsetto. For example reading aloud is one method.

In the link above is a software which shows results.
Results can additionally be recorded, played back and analyzed.
And a hand can be laid on the chest in the beginning to feel resonance.

A voice therapist of course can help and avoid errors. But it takes time and persistent training anyways.

hugs

[Jennygirl]

Lots of great advice here..

Definitely falsetto-ing which is why it is feeling unnatural to you, people speak using their chest voice. More important than pitch is pitch dynamic.. a.k.a. bouncing from the medium point in your range to high and back and forth as you speak. This will generate a more natural sound, more emotive.

Resonance is key as well as others have stated. Resonance comes down to vocal tract length, or rather the distance between your mouth and the adams apple a la trumpet vs tuba (tuba has a longer path than a trumpet, it's not necessarily the size/girth).

Resonance exercise: Try *gently* touching your adams apple (thyroid cartilage where your vocal folds are contained) with your index finger, relax all the muscles and feel where it's at. Now as you swallow, notice how it goes up to the top. Then try yawning, you'll notice it go all the way down.

What you want is to learn how to control the muscles that make it move upward as when you swallow. See if you can hold it there and try to speak- you might be shocked by the sound that comes out! Your voice will sound super tiny because vocal tract length is now shorter It will take heavy practice before the muscles get stronger to hold it in a more upward position, but they will eventually start to hold it higher by default... to the point where it will feel awkward to have it anywhere else. The body is pretty neat!

[Ever]

Yes, as others have observed, voice sounds strained, and it's not all about pitch.  I think if you tried to open up and relax your throat a bit you might be able to start sounding more natural.

[anjaq]

I think experiences vary a lot when it comes to getting resonance right. Some did those exercises where you go up in pitch to falsetto and then let it drop down without falling back into the full resonance again but also not in the falsetto anymore. I believe it is called mixed voice and basically the goal of resonance feminizing voice exercises. For some people it just "clicks" after doing this a few times (I did it that with the Melanie Phillips exercises which are similar to the "CanfiFla" youtube exercises) - others need more time to practice (FYFV-"finding your female voice" is the right apporach then, I believe, as it is basically repetition of doing the same thing over and over again until it sticks).

When it "clicked" for me. It was actually easy to switch back and forth for a while and since I did not switch back after a while, this kind of became harder for me. When I was trying to do a pre-VFS "old voice" recording, it still did not sound like my "male voice". I dropped in pitch really low down into the mid male range for a while, but people still considered it to be a female voice - just a very very low one. Only when I entered the lower male range (below about the C at 130 Hz), the perception really flipped. On the phone, it was harder, admittedly - people seem to put more value on pitch when they listen to a voice on the phone.

The most important part of ALL the voice exercises as well as just speaking regularly is to relax. Dont force anything, dont tighten your muscles until they hurt, dont push your larynx upwards with the hands or strangle yourself with hands or throat muscles. some exercises will tell you to do such things, but make sure you do this just in the exercise that makes you do it, not use it all the time.

Actually after voice surgery, you should be able to relax, be comfortable in that the pitch cannot be wrong, so you should let go of pitch control to a large degree. You can relax your throat muscles, your jaw. Use a lot of air flow like in the lip flutter exercises or look up the "Tietze straw method" (sp?) online - Make sure you rather waste air when making the exercises than conserve air. This is a bit misleading about the Yeson exercises which tell you to hold a note as long as possible and use a stopwatch to get the numbers. That can lead you to hold back too much. Forget that for a moment and just let a lot of air pass your vocal chords. When you have anough airflow, the chords will swing more cleanly.

This is all tons of advice and you are probably overwhelmed, which is why I agree that going to a pro voice therapist is a good way because she can then focus on each aspect seperately and in a sequence

[Teslagirl]

Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet

Anja, I'd really like to understand this properly before I go to Yeson. If all the surgery does is to change pitch, then that's not enough for me. I already control my voice and resonance well (my thyroid cartilage goes up as Jenny said it should when I talk). We've talked about this elsewhere. I think I still have male undertones to my voice that I can't control (although no-one really notices), and I thought we agreed that the Yeson surgery removes these? My equation would be: Voice and resonance control + Yeson surgery minus 'undertones' = female voice, whereas at the moment I have: Voice and resonance control + undertones = androgenous voice. And that's without mentioning the vegetative sounds like screaming, sneezing, coughing, and singing. All of those sound male for me at the moment. If Yeson only raises pitch, as many have said it does, how can any of those be improved if I'm already controlling my voice and resonance well? And yet many have said the surgery does affect vegetative sounds and singing. So is it just pitch raising surgery or is there more to it than that? I still don't have an answer.