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250Hz but still sounds masculine...

Started by kim27, May 24, 2015, 05:17:36 AM

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Amy1988

Quote from: anjaq on May 26, 2015, 06:28:59 AM
Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet ;) - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet ;)
But as I said, it has to "click" and Yeson exercises may not be enough for everyone to get there. I see what they are trying to do there, with the humming sound vibrating in the cheeks (forward, projection resonance) and the ng-ah exercises (soft palate training) and the glissandos (transitioning into head voice and then use a mixed voice instead of a pure chest voice with chest resonance). But without feedback of a voice trainer, they only make sens if you already had voice training and know what to watch out for.

The analogy is still the same.  If I had to choose between pitch and resonance I would choose resonance.
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mmmmm

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 26, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
(my thyroid cartilage goes up as Jenny said it should when I talk).

Please find a voice therapist, at least for a few sessions, before any mistake like this becomes extremly hard to unlearn. You need to learn how to use the right resonance with thyroid cartilage and larynx in NEUTRAL position. Not raising it up to achieve anything... Please people, take voice development seriously and get yourself speech/voice therapist, much like you spend thousands of dollars for pro hair removal, instead of doing it at home for free. When you learn something wrong, even if it is a small mistake, it is that much harder and longer lasting to unlearn... And while speech therapies might be really expensive, an experienced singing teacher can be much more affordable option, and they can still have more than enough knowledge about voice to safely guide you and help you develop your voice.
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anjaq

Hi Sarah

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 26, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
Anja, I'd really like to understand this properly before I go to Yeson. If all the surgery does is to change pitch, then that's not enough for me. I already control my voice and resonance well (my thyroid cartilage goes up as Jenny said it should when I talk). We've talked about this elsewhere. I think I still have male undertones to my voice that I can't control (although no-one really notices), and I thought we agreed that the Yeson surgery removes these? My equation would be: Voice and resonance control + Yeson surgery minus 'undertones' = female voice, whereas at the moment I have: Voice and resonance control + undertones = androgenous voice. And that's without mentioning the vegetative sounds like screaming, sneezing, coughing, and singing. All of those sound male for me at the moment. If Yeson only raises pitch, as many have said it does, how can any of those be improved if I'm already controlling my voice and resonance well? And yet many have said the surgery does affect vegetative sounds and singing. So is it just pitch raising surgery or is there more to it than that? I still don't have an answer.
Its really hard to say this for sure. In my experience the main difference is that it feels like a different musical instrument now, one that is tuned to a higher pitch by a bit (not as much yet as I expected), the undertones have shifted as well, they are not as bassy anymore but maybe more "alto". The resonance has not really changed in principal, but I feel it is easier to settle into a proper resonance control now. Using the "instrument in concert", meaning using the voice loudly and melodically, like in singing or saying some things loudly will come out quite a bit higher and almost where Dr Kim predicted it to be. Again, the undertones have shifted in pitch there as well, so if I sing along with other women I hear no huge difference anymore and it is not costing effort. Burping, coughing are not so much affected by the surgery for me, Sneezing maybe a little bit, laughter definitely has changed a whole lot.

What changes in the surgery is the length and by that the mass of the active vocal fold. This does give a different sound since the pitch of the undertones and the main tones are different and the voice is less "massive". It does not change the resonance body though, that still has to be done by the individual and for that, only voice training of some sort helps.

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anjaq

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 26, 2015, 06:34:21 PM
The analogy is still the same.  If I had to choose between pitch and resonance I would choose resonance.
Thats true. If I can choose both, I will do so though ;)

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thegreenrabbit

Quote from: anjaq on May 27, 2015, 09:23:37 AM
Hi Sarah
Its really hard to say this for sure. In my experience the main difference is that it feels like a different musical instrument now, one that is tuned to a higher pitch by a bit (not as much yet as I expected), the undertones have shifted as well, they are not as bassy anymore but maybe more "alto". The resonance has not really changed in principal, but I feel it is easier to settle into a proper resonance control now. Using the "instrument in concert", meaning using the voice loudly and melodically, like in singing or saying some things loudly will come out quite a bit higher and almost where Dr Kim predicted it to be. Again, the undertones have shifted in pitch there as well, so if I sing along with other women I hear no huge difference anymore and it is not costing effort. Burping, coughing are not so much affected by the surgery for me, Sneezing maybe a little bit, laughter definitely has changed a whole lot.

What changes in the surgery is the length and by that the mass of the active vocal fold. This does give a different sound since the pitch of the undertones and the main tones are different and the voice is less "massive". It does not change the resonance body though, that still has to be done by the individual and for that, only voice training of some sort helps.

At 8 weeks post 'll I daredare not sneeze or laugh yet. I also look forward to enenjoying a glass of wine without being overly paranoid.
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iKate

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 26, 2015, 07:31:24 AM

What you want is to learn how to control the muscles that make it move upward as when you swallow. See if you can hold it there and try to speak- you might be shocked by the sound that comes out! Your voice will sound super tiny because vocal tract length is now shorter :) It will take heavy practice before the muscles get stronger to hold it in a more upward position, but they will eventually start to hold it higher by default... to the point where it will feel awkward to have it anywhere else. The body is pretty neat!

I was trying that but firstly my apple is already high up (and it's pretty small to begin with). I did notice some of my resonance going away though. I need to practice this more. Thanks!

I think in my case I don't have as much of the resonance issues. My main problem is pitch. I already had a natural "head voice" but it is just deep around 130Hz. When I talk I don't feel my chest vibrating.
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kim27

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 26, 2015, 07:31:24 AM
What you want is to learn how to control the muscles that make it move upward as when you swallow. See if you can hold it there and try to speak- you might be shocked by the sound that comes out! Your voice will sound super tiny because vocal tract length is now shorter :) It will take heavy practice before the muscles get stronger to hold it in a more upward position, but they will eventually start to hold it higher by default... to the point where it will feel awkward to have it anywhere else. The body is pretty neat!

Fantastic advise Jenny - thank you.  Doing that makes a big difference!!!  Once I managed to speak as you described, it sounded a lot better - obviously I will need to practice, practice, practice, but I can hear an improvement already :)  Oh, also, the comments about trying too hard with the pitch seemed accurate - just coming speaking with the larynx raised and not worrying about the pitch sounded better (was speaking about 230 Hz without any effort at all)...

Thanks again for all of the advice and comments - really is appreciated.

Kim xx
Kim x 

Full time: 1 April 2013
HRT: 29 April 2013
VFS: 11 November 2014
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Jennygirl

Glad it has helped you!

Also Jessie can be particularly helpful, Dr. Kim can probably recommend some exercises of his own.

Best of luck and keep us updated on your progress!
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Laura_7

Quote from: kim27 on May 30, 2015, 04:10:52 AM
Fantastic advise Jenny - thank you.  Doing that makes a big difference!!!  Once I managed to speak as you described, it sounded a lot better - obviously I will need to practice, practice, practice, but I can hear an improvement already :)  Oh, also, the comments about trying too hard with the pitch seemed accurate - just coming speaking with the larynx raised and not worrying about the pitch sounded better (was speaking about 230 Hz without any effort at all)...

Thanks again for all of the advice and comments - really is appreciated.

Kim xx
Well its not that much practice... imo important is the consitency, daily.
Its like building up muscles. In the beginning it may not be a long time, but it takes daily exercise over weeks.

hugs
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kim27

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 30, 2015, 04:17:09 AM
Glad it has helped you!

Also Jessie can be particularly helpful, Dr. Kim can probably recommend some exercises of his own.

Best of luck and keep us updated on your progress!

Good idea about contacting Jessie - thanks again Jenny. 

I wasn't going to post anything yet, as it isn't great, but here is the difference that slowing down and raising the larynx makes - to me it doesn't sound so masculine, so it is definitely a step in the right direction :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0HVdukwhs3j
Kim x 

Full time: 1 April 2013
HRT: 29 April 2013
VFS: 11 November 2014
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anjaq

Well, it does sound a very little bit better in resonance, but I think you still are using too much force or tension somehow and you kind of weaken your voice with that. It sounds even more tiny than before. think about female singers, they have strong and booming voices and not speak like tiny mouse. I personally think you should focus absolutely not on pitch, allow it to drop down to wherever it wants to go just for whatever you do here in the group. Dont be scared, it cannot go in a male pitch anymore. And then focus on airflow, use a LOT of air, allow resonance to happen. Maybe do the humming (/mmmmiii/)exercises from Yeson again but do them loudly - don't focus on the time, allow it to be short. Focus on the resonance that you should feel in the cheeks. You lips should be tingling when you use enough air flow when humming and you are relaxing enough. This is really a big part of the whole deal - to relax properly. Relax all the muscles except a very few that change resonance and that control pitch variation.

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Laura_7

#31
Another hint is to kind of feel it... a bit more feminine, breathy, soft... it shows in the voice.

Same for passing and mannerism in general... not overdoing it but letting it shine through a bit.

hugs
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Teslagirl

Can I make a sugestion Kim? You still don't have the intonation of the rainbow passage right when compared to the women with really successful results, and I also think you're trying to push it far too high. Why don't you listen to Jenny's original videos on Youtube and try to emulate the cadence and flow of her version. You need to learn how to be more 'sing songy' to put it crudely, and not worry so much about pitch.

With your second voice sample you're definitely improving, but there is still a way to go.

Sarah.
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mmmmm

You should try to take a recording at around 170-180Hz ... Your more natural voice would give us a lot better idea on what aspects you could improve, and how. It's really hard to make a fair observation based on so high pitched recordings.
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Jennygirl

Some very good suggestions:

-more sing songy (traverse up and down in pitch, it is still sounding a bit locked to one pitch)
-try to continue allowing your voice and throat to relax much more- you should end up speaking at a lower pitch. See if you can keep the average below or at 200hz. It still sounds a bit like you are using a falsetto/head voice

What is your lowest and highest pitch during the lip buzz exercise from low to high? Go slow and take note of the pitch as you move from lowest to highest.
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anjaq

Maybe you can record yourself doing 2 of the Yeson exercises - lip trills and /mmm/ humming while going up and going down in pitch? We could then check your vocal range. (go als low and as high as you can, start at a comfortable pitch and then go as high as you can, start at the high pitch and go as low as you can)

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seattlesarah

To me it sounds like you are speaking in falsetto, rather than speaking as you would have before transition. Are you actually using falsetto?

No amount of resonance training will make falsetto seem natural sounding with or without the Yeson operation. You'll need to speak as you would have before you transitioned to return to the starting point where resonance control can make a difference to your timbre. That might mean accepting a much lower pitch, but not definitely - I can do falsetto right down to within 4 notes from the bottom of my voice. You might just find you can use the non-falsetto voice at a 200hz+ level comfortably.

With the pitch variation during a sentence, currently you never really drop beyond the pitch you began at - you only vary it up from that point and return to it. I imagine this is because if you go lower your voice will crack out of falsetto into chest voice and you are trying to avoid it?

So the first step is to stop using falsetto and start a lot lower in your chest voice. Then, you need to vary your pitch both up and down from your starting pitch, and by a LOT. I can tell you're in a habit of speaking in monotone and that a big part of that will be because everyone in your area speaks that way to some extent. You're going to need to vary your pitch up and down in a way that seems ridiculously exaggerated when you do it to overcome the cultural practice of staying monotone that you have grown up with. It will be making the women in your area sound relatively masculine compared to women from other areas as well if that's how they speak there. Probably a few cis women there don't pass on the phone as female.

I am 4 months post op. My voice sounds *exactly* the same as before the operation, except now I am not consciously raising my pitch to talk, and I am a bit raspier. Both before and after the op I spoke at about 176hz. I've lost the bottom 4 semitones of my range and falsetto is easier to access so I know nothing has torn or come undone, but the increase in default speaking pitch has only been about 40hz at this point and it really doesn't feel like it will change after being steady for 2 months. My tessatura have not moved - my shifts from chest to head and head to falsetto occur in the same places. I have to admit I am really disappointed by the operation. I already had resonance and prosody down pat and had a passing voice. All the operation did was leave me with the same voice, without one component of effort, which was raising the pitch. I don't find this fundamental speaking pitch level one that makes me feel good about my voice, and I can't raise it because I run out of head voice notes for pitch variation above the fundamental if I do. I'm just really disappointed with the entire thing and at least at this point post-op, if I had the time over, I would have put the money into lipo instead of voice.

Also a question about voice therapists - the one I saw was only interested in producing FULL projection resonance. I didn't find it helpful or practical to use that as it makes me sound like a booming male. Do they all do that or do some acknowledge that full resonance exposes the size of your masculinized resonating cavities and instead focus on tempering the resonance to sound as though it is coming from unmasculinized resonating cavities?
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Teslagirl

Quote from: seattlesarah on May 31, 2015, 10:23:24 PM

Also a question about voice therapists - the one I saw was only interested in producing FULL projection resonance. I didn't find it helpful or practical to use that as it makes me sound like a booming male. Do they all do that or do some acknowledge that full resonance exposes the size of your masculinized resonating cavities and instead focus on tempering the resonance to sound as though it is coming from unmasculinized resonating cavities?

You probably need a voice therapist who works mainly with people in our situation. In the UK this would be someone like Christella Antoni.

Sarah.
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seattlesarah

The one I went to was recommended by the gender clinic so idk what to think.

But it's good to hear it confirmed that she wasn't aiming for what therapists normally do with trans women.
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anjaq

I dont like the concept of gender clinics particularly - they claim to be competent and eventually are regarded as the only ones competent enough to deal with trans issues but if they are not good, you dont have the choice anymore to go elsewhere...

Anyways - my voice therapist does a similar thing - aiming at full resonance and projection. She said I do have many of the other parameters right, so she does not do what she usually would do with trans patients. Basically she said my voice is female anyways and her focus is more on me using it correctly, get back loudness and loose breathiness and hoarseness after the surgery. Even pre OP it was like that, and her colleague who shares the rooms with her did not guess I have a voice that once was regarded male - so I think that maybe its ok to focus on these issues and not on resonance that much anymore. Although we actually do some resonance training, mainly by trying to stay in the middle voice a lot, using a full vibration of the vocal chords, but not letting too much mass swing with it.

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