Does God Exist?

[Eevee]

That's the definition of social control.

Yeah, the social control aspects of religion are what drove me from it. I grew up in a religious family and I believed what they believed because that's what I was told to believe. Eventually I did figure out that I could think for myself as long as I didn't keep doing that. That's why, even if there is a slight possibility of a creator out there, I refuse to follow any organized religion. I am almost entirely sure that they are all just traditions passed down to control us and don't have the right idea of god, if there is one.

[autumn08]

Marx made two interesting remarks about religion that are slightly different.

The better known one is that religion is the "opiate of the masses."  In other words, religion functions to cloud the thinking and dull the pain of the people caused by class oppression and injustice, and thereby prevent the people from mobilizing in their own interests.  Marx emphasized this particularly in regard to the bourgeoisie, the ruling class under capitalism, because that was what he was chiefly interested in during his historical era.  But his critique could certainly apply with equal force to other ruling classes of different times and different places (for instance, to slaveholders in the pre-Civil-War South, or to the aristocrats and bishops and absolute monarchs of old European society, or to the scribes and pharaohs of ancient Egypt.)  All of these ruling classes mobilized religion to deaden the thinking of the people and thereby maintain their dominance over society.

The other, lesser known, observation Marx made was that religion serves as the "heart of a heartless world."  In this aspect, religion serves to express the heartfelt aspirations of the people towards justice, charity, and kindness.  People living in a harsh and unjust world long for a system that promises order, meaning, and improvement in their conditions.  Lacking education and analytical tools to organize effective action towards these goals, people instead displace these goals into promises of peace, goodwill, and justice that will reign on earth at some remote time in the future, or in an imaginary afterlife.

What ties these two views together in Marx's thought is the fundamental proposition that religions are irrational, unscientific systems.  Religions are invented by people.  They are not revealed truths descending from gods.  To understand religions, Marx would say, you should study how they came to be, and also whose interests they serve in society.  Marx would say, don't look to irrational stories for guidance in improving your lives.  Instead, use logic, science, and reason to solve your problems, whether personal, or political, or social.

It's no accident that reactionary politicians make common cause with Bible-thumping religious bigots.  The bigots want to demonize unbelievers and "sinners," and the politicians want to divert the attention of the people from the real sources of their pain onto unpopular scapegoats, like Muslims, or immigrants, or racial minorities, or gays and lesbians, or (yes!) transgendered folks.  Marx would tell us, don't turn to religion.  Instead, turn to science, logic, reason, and organized action.

[April climbs down off her soapbox . . ]

Bravo!!! 

[autumn08]

1) Depends on the definition of God. Every specific God claim will have a specific answer. If we're talking about a tri-omni Judeo Christian style creator God... no, probably not.

2) Again, the answer turns on the specific God claim. For this tri-omni one, I say no because the God would be highly improbable given its complex nature. Also, the omni aspects are self contradictory and contradict the natural world.

You could approach this subject from a deistic, and/or theistic position. However you'd like. 

[diane 2606]

Awesome, April. Can we make this required reading?

[Tamika Olivia]

You could approach this subject from a deistic, and/or theistic position. However you'd like.

Thing is, I don't really have a dog in the race. None of the god concepts I've met so far is something I believe in, or think any more likely than all the others. Picking one would feel arbitrary, and arguing against them all would take the rest of my life, because there are as many God concepts as there are people. Moreover, depending on how God is defined, the answer could be a resounding yes or no. If God is defined as Diet Coke, then yes God exists. If God is defined as a unicorn that lives in my basement, then he doesn't exist. About as far as I can get is "No God yet presented, that has the traditional 'personified' and 'all or near all powerful' elements of a classically defined God, is something I believe exists."

[Serverlan]

1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

What do you mean by "God," what are you referring to?

[autumn08]

What do you mean by "God," what are you referring to?

If you look at God from a deist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe. If you look at God from a theist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe, and God is an intervenor in the human world.

[Serverlan]

If you look at God from a deist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe. If you look at God from a theist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe, and God is an intervenor in the human world.

But what is "God"?

[stephaniec]

God is the fundamental law governing existence.

[autumn08]

But what is "God"?

We can never know the objective basis of anything, only our subjective experience of it, which we then define using our culture. I do not know what causes my lack of experiencing God, but I know I am not experiencing God, because know the way my culture defines God.

To help you understand the question posed in my initial post though, try to approach it from the perspective of metaphysics, not epistemology.

[ChasingAlice]

God...the most powerful psychic in existence.

[Serverlan]

We can never know the objective basis of anything, only our subjective experience of it, which we then define using our culture.

But what are the properties of "God" that we attempt have an objective experience of? That is, a referent, "God", has been proposed, yet no features or properties of this referent have been forwarded.

[Serverlan]

God is the fundamental law governing existence.

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

[ChasingAlice]

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

i don't know.
Why are there ghosts and poltergeists?
Why are some places haunted?
Why are there psychics? And why do police departments actually use them in the U.S. to help solve cases (yes this is real I worked in the department of corrections for awhile as a guard.) I have to mention that the anniversary days of executions can be very lively.

Does this prove that God exists? No. But life after death certainly exists. Hence my statement of God being the most powerful psychic in existence.

May the force be with you...and also with you. LOL

[Serverlan]

i don't know.
Why are there ghosts and poltergeists?
Why are some places haunted?
Why are there psychics? And why do police departments actually use them in the U.S. to help solve cases (yes this is real I worked in the department of corrections for awhile as a guard.) I have to mention that the anniversary days of executions can be very lively.

Does this prove that God exists? No. But life after death certainly exists. Hence my statement of God being the most powerful psychic in existence.

I agree, your response doesn't prove that "God" exists (let alone what "God" is). Nor does it prove the existence of ghosts. I do agree that psychics exist, but they are less than useless for anything, unless it's performing their magic shows on television.

[stephaniec]

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

standing on a planet in absolute nothingness enjoying delicious food and a warm sun instead of not having any existence except as as atom speeding along waiting to crash into another atom A law that gives us a platform to live on. You may not see that as God , but I do.

[autumn08]

But what are the properties of "God" that we attempt have an objective experience of? That is, a referent, "God", has been proposed, yet no features or properties of this referent have been forwarded.

The properties of God that a deist sees, are properties that are necessary for the universe to exist, such as the ones Stephanie and Nema proffer. The properties of God that a theist sees, are properties that are necessary to explain their experience, such as Deborah, King Malachite, and Alice proffer.

[autumn08]

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

I think Stephanie was referring to the Fine Tuned Universe argument. This argument asserts the fact that life would be impossible if there was a slight alteration to the fundamental physical constants, is evidence that the universe was created.

[Serverlan]

• The properties of God that a deist sees are properties that are necessary for the universe to exist.


• The properties of God that a theist sees are properties that are necessary to explain their experience.


• The Fine Tuned Universe argument asserts, as evidence that the universe was created, that life would be impossible if there was a slight alteration to the fundamental physical constants.

And what's your view on these three positions?

[ChasingAlice]

One of my favorites songs. Tools Opiate... Love the beginning, it sounds like my life.


Had to add NIB - the entire album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVGyychgAM&list=PLqb9qVV0iYuj3vE7FTW3wBvPeFceW77ZQ