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Does God Exist?

Started by autumn08, January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM

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autumn08

1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?


(Based on the Terms of Service, in regards to this issue, I believe we can put forth our best argument, but we can not question any member's argument.)
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itsApril

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

(1)  Nope.

(2)  The descriptions of God offered by all religions I have encountered are so improbable and/or self-contradictary and/or repellant as to be beyond rational belief.  Alternatively, definitions of God intended to avoid those objections (such as remote creator no longer involved with the universe, laws of nature, or cosmic being disconnected from material existence, etc.) end up being so vague or vaporous as to have no significance.
-April
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Deborah

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?


(Based on the Terms of Service, in regards to this issue, I believe we can put forth our best argument, but we can not question any member's argument.)
1) Does God exist?  Which one are you asking about.  If it's the one worshipped by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam then I don't know.  Even if he does though I don't care because he is personified evil proven by what he wrote in his book.  And his book does say that we as humans can judge good and evil.  It says that right up front.  Any being with as many genocides to his name as this one is evil.  We put them on trial for crimes against humanity and execute them.  And this so called God is worse because he killed his created children for what?  It was for disobedience.  What do we call parents who kill their children?  We call them criminals.  So, there you go.

But I do believe God exists, just not that imposter.

2) Why, or why not?  Because I believe I directly experienced the actual source, God, one time.  It felt otherworldly and unlike any other experience I have ever had.  But no, I can't prove it.



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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Eevee

1) I don't know

2) I try not to think about it too much, since it's something I cannot control one way or another. Although I try to have a scientific mind about life (even if I'm not quite smart enough to really participate there), I realize that faith is well outside of that. Faith is irrational, but not everything has to be rational. I can't prove or disprove the existence of a god and I don't need to. All I know is that if any god created this life for me, then it's not a god I want to believe in. Therefore it's not something I'm going to search for. I want nothing to do with it.

Eevee
#133

Because its genetic makeup is irregular, it quickly changes its form due to a variety of causes.



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itsApril

Quote from: Deborah on January 13, 2016, 06:47:21 PM
. . . I believe I directly experienced the actual source, God, one time.  It felt otherworldly and unlike any other experience I have ever had.  But no, I can't prove it.

Nobody can dispute the authenticity of what you really experienced.
-April
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Stevie

 
3) It doesn't matter if god exists or not.

 
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diane 2606

Whoo-boy, here I go again.

1) Maybe. I would accept the existence of a deity who was responsible for starting the Big Bang, except...

2) To my logic, and I've given this an awful lot of thought over the course of many decades, a deity who wanted to be worshipped would have defined who it is and its terms of devotion from the beginning of time, don't you think? That didn't happen, so we've had to suffer a bazillion different religions invented by men whose main purpose was social control.
"Old age ain't no place for sissies." — Bette Davis
Social expectations are not the boss of me.
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Nema

Absolutely, without a doubt, there is a God. Look around. We are here. We are creations, and creations are created. I think the real question is: What is God? I personally don't think there is a man in the sky, or anything like that. I think God is a collective that cannot be contained into one description.

We are made in God's image. To me, this is absolutely true. God is creation, and we, as humans, have a natural desire to create (etc, etc)

I look at it this way: Either you exist, or you don't exist. Since I  exist, then something caused me to exist, otherwise I wouldn't exist. Very, very basically, to me, this means God could be a calculation, or any other variable or constant that could be imagined.

Ultimately, I don't think we will ever be able to understand the full extent of God.
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stephaniec

yes, because for me having a consciousness only makes sense with an absolute consciousness .
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King Malachite

1.  Yes.

2. The Bible tells me so, and His presence is manifested by the universe around us.
Feel the need to ask me something or just want to check out my blog?  Then click below:

http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,135882.0.html


"Sometimes you have to go through outer hell to get to inner heaven."

"Anomalies can make the best revolutionaries."
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ChasingAlice

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?


1) Yes God / God(s) exist.

2) I base this on my near death experiences. It was rather obvious even as a child. Later, when I was 31, I had a bad reaction to medicine and lay on the floor gasping for breath fighting to live and saw the same entity and was conforted. I will remember the words she said forever, "You will always be what you've always been."

Rather odd I think.

Ut oh! Now everyone is going to think that I am a nut job.

itsApril

Quote from: ChasingAlice on January 14, 2016, 03:01:02 AM
Ut oh! Now everyone is going to think that I am a nut job.

I don't think so.  I once had a vivid dream of an old woman looking down at me.  She was the kind of woman that in popular culture might be described as a witch or an old hag.  But that's not the feeling I had.  I felt this was a woman (perhaps, my wife?) that I had known for many years, and that she was filled with sorrow.  As the dream went on, the scene hazed over and I lost sight of her.  The dream ended there.

If I believed in supernatural events, I might take this as a memory of an earlier lifetime - perhaps my own death, with my wife watching over my final moments.  But I don't believe in anything like that.  So I'm at a loss to explain the dream.  I've got to admit I can't account for it within my own frame of reference.

I don't think you're a nut job.  There's a lot we don't know.
-April
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DanielleA

Q1 - I don't believe there is any god/s

Q2 - I am the kind of person who believes in what she can see and touch and from what I have found, religion seems to be a man made thing anyway. As for if there is anything else out there... Then yes, because I have a big male ghost living in my unit. He does raise some questions.
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Deborah


Quote from: ChasingAlice on January 14, 2016, 03:01:02 AM
Ut oh! Now everyone is going to think that I am a nut job.
Nope.  My Mother had a near death experience that was similar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Colleen M

1)  Almost certainly not.  There is a faint possibility, but my odds of winning the lottery without buying a ticket are substantially better.  It's not likely enough to even pretend to worry about the possibility.   

2)  Putting aside the fact that a divine being actually complicates models of the universe, we can demonstrate how particular gods are plagiarized (Aten is very persistent in his later incarnations) while I think it's fair to say that if you have to steal huge chunks of somebody else's origins story (Adapa and Utnapishtim in particular get around) then you probably failed Godhood 101 and couldn't possibly have created a universe when you can't even manage an original story.  We can fairly easily prove most religions today are so derivative there is no realistic possibility of them being legitimate.  We can play whack-a-mole with other gods well beyond the point it's of any value, and I just don't have the patience to continue it indefinitely.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should also mention I have a problem with ritual cannibalism, so I'm actually quite relieved to know that the major religion in my area isn't real.   

 
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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stephaniec

Just for me the universe is an organized energy and that organization or fundamental law without which there would be only random particles chaotically bumping into each other with no other purpose than to bump into each other . That law that guides is my God.
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Tysilio

Quote from: Colleen MIn the interest of full disclosure, I should also mention I have a problem with ritual cannibalism, so I'm actually quite relieved to know that the major religion in my area isn't real.   

Yes, I feel the same way about that, and about the fact that the religion in question has an instrument of torture as its main symbol. Ick!
Never bring an umbrella to a coyote fight.
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Tamika Olivia

1) Depends on the definition of God. Every specific God claim will have a specific answer. If we're talking about a tri-omni Judeo Christian style creator God... no, probably not.

2) Again, the answer turns on the specific God claim. For this tri-omni one, I say no because the God would be highly improbable given its complex nature. Also, the omni aspects are self contradictory and contradict the natural world.
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diane 2606

From Shintoism (Japan) to Christianity (Middle East), all popular modern religions began in Asia. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam each trace their roots to the same nomad, Abraham. Yet sects of each are incapable of getting along within their own religion, much less with members of other religions. We live in a constant state of agitation over perceived wrongs that may have happened as much as 2,000 years ago.

For most, belief in a deity is a matter of choice. I would ask those who believe, in which specific religion and how did you chose it? I would argue that if one believes, that person's choice was likely made by parents, who used the threat of Hell (in whatever form your religion defines Hell) if you didn't do as you were told. As adults, adherents get the same message from religious Elders. That's the definition of social control.

"Marx viewed religion as a tool of social control used by the bourgeoisie to keep the proletariat content with an unequal status quo."(1) Can those of us who grew up with anti-communism ringing in our heads step back and analyze what Marx meant in light of modern times? Why do we let the "Elders" tell us, and those closest to us, what to think? How much pain and suffering have we as transpeople had to endure because of them?

I don't know if a Deity exists. I don't really care.



1) https://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/religion-14/the-conflict-perspective-on-religion-107/religion-and-social-control-596-2095/
"Old age ain't no place for sissies." — Bette Davis
Social expectations are not the boss of me.
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itsApril

Quote from: diane 2606 on January 14, 2016, 08:30:44 PM
"Marx viewed religion as a tool of social control used by the bourgeoisie to keep the proletariat content with an unequal status quo."(1) Can those of us who grew up with anti-communism ringing in our heads step back and analyze what Marx meant in light of modern times? Why do we let the "Elders" tell us, and those closest to us, what to think? How much pain and suffering have we as transpeople had to endure because of them?

Marx made two interesting remarks about religion that are slightly different.

The better known one is that religion is the "opiate of the masses."  In other words, religion functions to cloud the thinking and dull the pain of the people caused by class oppression and injustice, and thereby prevent the people from mobilizing in their own interests.  Marx emphasized this particularly in regard to the bourgeoisie, the ruling class under capitalism, because that was what he was chiefly interested in during his historical era.  But his critique could certainly apply with equal force to other ruling classes of different times and different places (for instance, to slaveholders in the pre-Civil-War South, or to the aristocrats and bishops and absolute monarchs of old European society, or to the scribes and pharaohs of ancient Egypt.)  All of these ruling classes mobilized religion to deaden the thinking of the people and thereby maintain their dominance over society.

The other, lesser known, observation Marx made was that religion serves as the "heart of a heartless world."  In this aspect, religion serves to express the heartfelt aspirations of the people towards justice, charity, and kindness.  People living in a harsh and unjust world long for a system that promises order, meaning, and improvement in their conditions.  Lacking education and analytical tools to organize effective action towards these goals, people instead displace these goals into promises of peace, goodwill, and justice that will reign on earth at some remote time in the future, or in an imaginary afterlife.

What ties these two views together in Marx's thought is the fundamental proposition that religions are irrational, unscientific systems.  Religions are invented by people.  They are not revealed truths descending from gods.  To understand religions, Marx would say, you should study how they came to be, and also whose interests they serve in society.  Marx would say, don't look to irrational stories for guidance in improving your lives.  Instead, use logic, science, and reason to solve your problems, whether personal, or political, or social.

It's no accident that reactionary politicians make common cause with Bible-thumping religious bigots.  The bigots want to demonize unbelievers and "sinners," and the politicians want to divert the attention of the people from the real sources of their pain onto unpopular scapegoats, like Muslims, or immigrants, or racial minorities, or gays and lesbians, or (yes!) transgendered folks.  Marx would tell us, don't turn to religion.  Instead, turn to science, logic, reason, and organized action.

[April climbs down off her soapbox . . ]
-April
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