Is anyone overwhelmed by Christian messages?

[cheryl reeves]

P.S.S. I'm not trying to be argumentative in any way...I have a problem with errors which is a part of my problem and that's one reason for no friends....

[RavenMoon]

That's because his name isn't Jesus,the current form of Jesus has only been in use since 1826. His name is Yehoshua son of Yosef/Joshua son of Joseph. The Constantine council decided to use a pagan name in place of the true messiah to entice more pagans into the church, Just like the pagan festivals instituted n y Rome to entice pagans and to cater to pagans. Those collections of books were all written by the house of Israel. Like I said the bible is a message to the house of Israel that was made into a religon.

And still, there's no evidence such a person existed. And your facts are a bit skewed. 

It was the Council of Nicaea. And that happened in 325 AD. Let that sink in a minute. 325 years AFTER the supposed events.

It's mostly all fiction.


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[cheryl reeves]

Yehoshua ben Yosef did exist there is too much over whelming evidence but when you go looking for Jesus he did not exist til 1826 before that they called him Heysus the God of swine. Like Jacob Joshuas brother the world calls him James but if you go looking for James the brother of Jesus you run into dead ends. I know all about the council of nicea and  creation of the universal church. When you speak of Christianity to me your not talking to a novice.

[RobynD]

I think the study of the faith in all of its various forms is an interesting one. It is a faith that has had profound influence on all cultures of the world, but helped shaped western culture for centuries. Even in very diverse parts of America (here in Oregon we are the least "churched" state in the union"), the influence of Christianity is everywhere and i can totally understand how non-Christians get tired of that.

I do think that when we assert our personal faith in forums like this it can get into a back and forth pretty fast and let's face it, most people do not change their viewpoints on that. Their faith was established by influence from parents or some other significant relationships in their life.

But we may ask, how does that fit with Christ's exhortation to "go make disciples in all of the world"? I think that answer to that is that discipleship is not interactions on forums like this, it is daily willful serving of other people as demonstrated by the example of Christ, whether you believe him to be a historical character or whether you believe him to be an idea that can actually "save the world", our something else entirely.

Serving other people truly does save the world and is probably the most wonderful effect of Christianity's influence on culture. There are examples of it everywhere from street missions to Mother Theresa. That is the kind of Christianity i personally want to focus on, not doctrine that is supposed to change my identity to one group or another, or is designed to keep me from a "fiery hell". Whatever occurs to me in the afterlife will take care of itself in my view.

[AnneK]

Ummm...  Mother Theresa might not be the saint some hold her out to be.


From http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

This returns us to the medieval corruption of the church, which sold indulgences to the rich while preaching hellfire and continence to the poor. MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?

[Devlyn]

Mr Hitchens undoubtedly has more skeletons in his  closet than any of us.

[AnneK]

Well, I'd consider him more credible than "believers".

From https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/13/pope-francis-makes-2-fatima-children-catholic-saints-100-years-after-visions.html

Pope Francis added two Portuguese shepherd children to the roster of Catholic saints Saturday, honouring young siblings whose reported visions of the Virgin Mary 100 years ago turned the Portuguese farm town of Fatima into one of the world's most important Catholic shrines.

Francis proclaimed Francisco and Jacinta Marto saints at the start of Mass marking the centenary of their visions. A half-million people watched in the vast square in front of the shrine's basilica, the Vatican said, citing Portuguese authorities. Many had spent days at Fatima in prayer, reciting rosaries before a statue of the Madonna. They clapped as soon as Francis read the proclamation aloud.

"It is amazing. It's like an answer to prayer, because I felt that always they would be canonized," said Agnes Walsh from Killarney, Ireland. She said she prayed to Francisco Marto for 20 years, hoping her four daughters would meet "nice boys like Francisco."

"The four of them have met boys that are just beautiful. I couldn't ask for better, so he has answered all my prayers," she said.

So, because they had "visions", they get canonized and their town becomes a shrine.  Even ignoring those visions supposedly happened a century ago, how can anyone conclude they're saint material?  Where is there the slightest shred of evidence???

If I pray to the Great Pumpkin for something and that something happens, is it because the Great Pumpkin did it?  Or, as is much more likely, it would have happened anyway?  Well, that is the precise situation with these so called "miracles".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin

[Devlyn]

Hitchens life's work consists of exposes of Bill Clinton,  Henry Kissinger, and Mother Teresa. Not my idea of credibility.

I'd also suggest that if you hold such disdain for religion, perhaps the Spirituality forum isn't the best place for you to be posting. Because if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

Hugs, Devlyn

[AnneK]

Because if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

Perhaps you can explain to me why "believers" are free to express their beliefs, but others are denied rebuttal?  I, for one, find such beliefs to be offensive, as it involves passing off delusion as fact or reality.  Why the double standard?

If someone posts their beliefs here, why am I not allowed to challenge them?  Or does "spirituality" not allow opposing views?

[Devlyn]

Because if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

Perhaps you can explain to me why "believers" are free to express their beliefs, but others are denied rebuttal?  I, for one, find such beliefs to be offensive, as it involves passing off delusion as fact or reality.  Why the double standard?

If someone posts their beliefs here, why am I not allowed to challenge them?  Or does "spirituality" not allow opposing views?

Perhaps you could explain to me where anyone was denied anything.....


The point im making is post respectfully or youll be  asked not to post at all. In this thread you have referred to people as delusional. You put believers in scare quotes. You brought up the Great Pumpkin like a nine year old. There is a difference between worship and cartoons. You're not ready to offer up serious rebuttals. You're just playing games.

[AnneK]

Well, you did say this:

I'd also suggest that if you hold such disdain for religion, perhaps the Spirituality forum isn't the best place for you to be posting. Because if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

If the spirituality forum isn't the place for this sort of discussion, then where?

Now, please compare my comments about delusional etc., with that Missouri Republican, who claimed there were differences between humans and gays, basing those claims on his religious beliefs..  Now that is something I find offensive.  It is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

[Brandon]

Well, you did say this:

If the spirituality forum isn't the place for this sort of discussion, then where?

Now, please compare my comments about delusional etc., with that Missouri Republican, who claimed there were differences between humans and gays, basing those claims on his religious beliefs..  Now that is something I find offensive.  It is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

You can have an opinion but be respectful about it but that is rude to be calling some delusional because they believe in a higher power, I am actually a Christian and believe in God and Jesus Christ and nowhere in the bible does it say gays are different from humans although the bible does speak against it. That's just people being dumb, you don't have to agree with what everyone is doing in their life but be respectful.

[Deborah]

I respect Christianity to the same degree that it respects me.  For example. 

That is why God abandoned them in their inmost cravings to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies— 25 because they exchanged God's truth for a lie and have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to degrading passions: 27 why their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural practices; and the men, in a similar fashion, too, giving up normal relations with women, are consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameful things with men and receiving in themselves due reward for their perversion. 28 In other words, since they would not consent to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to their unacceptable thoughts and indecent behaviour. 29 And so now they are steeped in all sorts of injustice, rottenness, greed and malice; full of envy, murder, wrangling, treachery and spite, 30 libellers, slanderers, enemies of God, rude, arrogant and boastful, enterprising in evil, rebellious to parents, 31 without brains, honour, love or pity. 32 They are well aware of God's ordinance: that those who behave like this deserve to die—yet they not only do it, but even applaud others who do the same. (ROM 1:24-32, NJB)

The New Testament scriptures call us without brains and deserving to die.  For some reason I don't find that particularly respectful.  And what is the point of calling yourself a Christian and then ignoring the parts you don't like?  That's just making up a new religion as you go.  A do-it-yourself God.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

[Cindy]

 

This is Christianity area. Respect it as such.

On this site Respect goes both ways and that is not negotiable.

Cindy

[Raell]

Yes, religion can be depressing since it usually uses fear to control people, for donation purposes.
If you accepted those beliefs as a young child it can hard to shake them later.

If you want to be logical, the Sumerian writings predated the Old Testament by 2000 years, yet tell the same Bible stories, using earlier Babylonian versions of the names used in the Old Testament.
And the tale is told from the point of aliens coming to earth to obtain gold, genetically engineering humans to work in the gold mines by mixing their DNA with DNA from local earth ape men, then engineering animals and crop plants in the garden of Aiden.

The origins of human beings according to ancient Sumerian texts http://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/origins-human-beings-according-ancient-sumerian-texts-0065?

But if you have ever taken LSD, magic mushrooms, or meditated long enough to get in an existential state, you will find overwhelming, unconditional love, unity with the universe. Afterward it's more difficult to buy into hateful, judgmental religion.

To obey the Old Testament, you'd have to stone your kids for talking back, or carrying something on Saturday, etc., and the New Testament says women must be silent in church, wear a veil, marry, have children, and stay at home.

However, there are churches that simply celebrate love and life and accept everyone. I think Unitarian is one but you can google others if you want to attend. Or you can just get out in nature and meditate.

[AnneK]

I know some don't like the word "delusional", but what then is the proper term for someone who insists on believing something that not only has no historical or archeaological evidence, but is actually contradicted by those?  For example, King David supposedly destroyed several cities.  Yet, the fact is most of them were destroyed outside of his life time.  Also, history shows him to be a fairly minor figure.  Why no record of the Exodus?  The Egyptians were excellent record keepers.  It's a long list...  If we're supposed to respect them, why aren't they supposed to respect those with opposing views?

[Brandon]

I know some don't like the word "delusional", but what then is the proper term for someone who insists on believing something that not only has no historical or archeaological evidence, but is actually contradicted by those?  For example, King David supposedly destroyed several cities.  Yet, the fact is most of them were destroyed outside of his life time.  Also, history shows him to be a fairly minor figure.  Why no record of the Exodus?  The Egyptians were excellent record keepers.  It's a long list...  If we're supposed to respect them, why aren't they supposed to respect those with opposing views?

I mean I have personally witnessed things that only God could have done, I would never deny his existence, I could go on and on about everything he has done for me but you still wouldn't open your mind up to it, I think most Christians do respect you guys but you get mad at us because we follow a bible that teaches against certain things and it's not like we wrote it and I mean we don't have to agree with everything you do and I feel like some of the LGBT community forces that on people.We automatically get labeled homophobic and transphobic, I respect everyone but don't shove stuff down my throat and I myself am a trans man saying this.

[AnneK]

I mean I have personally witnessed things that only God could have done

Really???  Care to site some examples where there is no other possible explanation?

[Deborah]

I think most Christians do respect you guys but you get mad at us because we follow a bible that teaches against certain things and it's not like we wrote it and I mean we don't have to agree with everything you do and I feel like some of the LGBT community forces that on people.

Nobody cares what book you personally believe in and nobody cares whether you agree or disagree with anything.  But you don't stop at disagreement.  No, you and your ilk constantly try and deprive us of the freedom to live our lives as we see fit.  You guys are the penultimate hypocrites crying your crocodile tears about anyone forcing anything on you.  It makes Christians appear either supremely dishonest or extremely gullible to believe anything they're told from whomever they follow.

At least Christians in the old days were courageous enough to say out loud their intentions, "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES."


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

[Cindy]

Locked for review and clean up.

I also posted in the thread warning people to be respectful and as that has not been followed the clean up will not be without penalties.

Members are fully aware of the rules of this Forum.