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On Sin

Started by Wendyway2, July 15, 2017, 11:52:28 AM

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Deborah

Quote from: OU812 on August 24, 2017, 01:14:13 PM
I think if one's definition of "sin" . . .
Sin has a well established definition in Christian Theology.

"SIN Defined by theologians as any thought, word, or deed that transgresses the law of God. In the famous words of Saint Augustine, sin is "something said, done, or desired that is contrary to the eternal law"
Catholic Bible Dictionary, pg 851

Any other definition may serve to soothe one's conscience but otherwise lies outside the realm of Christianity.



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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

OU812

Quote from: Deborah on August 24, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Sin has a well established definition in Christian Theology.

"SIN Defined by theologians as any thought, word, or deed that transgresses the law of God. In the famous words of Saint Augustine, sin is "something said, done, or desired that is contrary to the eternal law"
Catholic Bible Dictionary, pg 851

Any other definition may serve to soothe one's conscience but otherwise lies outside the realm of Christianity.


Somehow by isolating one specific phrase from my post, you managed to miss the forest for the trees of what I said. I'm referring to the nature of sin in relation to the human experience, not what constitutes a sin.
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Dianne H

Proverbs 21: [4] An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Proverbs 24: [9] The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Romans 14: [23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

James 4: [17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 john 5: [17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

These are a few examples of what the word of God defines as sin.
  •  

Dianne H

Ou812

I didn't see your post above mine before posting.

What causes the nature of sin is that it says the creature was made subject to vanity.

It is written the heart of man is deceitfully wicked, the spirit within us lusteth unto envy and the carnal mind is enmity with God.

To use the above and be carnally minded is our nature which will war against the Holy Ghost and cause us to sin when we give heed to them.
  •  

JulieOnHerWay

I must not.  I can not or I will be a sinner.
Reference:
FemMans 4: (20) As one walks the hard path, ye shan't disparage a fellow sojourner.  For if ye wonder off that path, the Wrath of Cindy shall descend upon ye and it will not be good for thy rep.

Love you Cindy and other mods
  •  

OU812

Quote from: Dianne H on August 24, 2017, 08:45:55 PM
Ou812

What causes the nature of sin is that it says the creature was made subject to vanity.

It is written the heart of man is deceitfully wicked, the spirit within us lusteth unto envy and the carnal mind is enmity with God.

To use the above and be carnally minded is our nature which will war against the Holy Ghost and cause us to sin when we give heed to them.

Again, this is well-intended, but misses the point.

So you sin because it's in your nature. Easy. We can take that as a given. I'd argue that the innate nature of the human from childhood is not "deceitfully wicked", though we can assume that nobody's perfect. But there's follow-up...

So you sinned... and? What's the result? You just keep doing the same old sins over and over again and repenting? I had a bully in Catholic school who would punch me five times in ten seconds and say sorry each time. Translate that to adult form with someone who cheats on his wife, or robs people, or just lives an immoral life, and just keeps getting away with it over and over again - because his religion tells him his supreme deity will forgive him no matter what.

This is my point. You can't build a society on this stuff. If the extant definitions of sin aren't there to inspire you towards a more moral life, there's no point in even labeling that they exist - that would be of no service to bringing humans closer to alignment with the creator's vision.

If it's not something the individual is working on, sin may as well be this cargo you pick up, transport, and drop off like a trucker, really having no interaction with it. The only outcome of that would be feeling like crap, like you have flaws that you're unable to improve, and may as well just keep doing them instead of improving your lifestyle. What good is a principle if breaking it isn't really a big deal?

Especially in relation to the idea of gender identity being a sin, two words come to mind: internalized transphobia. You don't get a pet dog and send it hurtful messages all the time like the animal isn't a valued and respected member of your household. No supreme deity would do that to a creature with the learning capacity of a human - if they would, they're simply not my deity.
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Dianne H

In the things I mentioned about the heart, mind and spirit, it bears witness that we are created subject unto vanity. The spirit of man wars against the Spirit of God, just as written.

Having said that, we are changed by the Spirit of regeneration which Paul spoke of. We are renewed as we allow the Spirit of God to work in our life. If we don't allow the Spirit of God to work in our life we will never change.

It is written the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. Whichever we give in to or follow is what will end up molding us (for a lack of a better word this morning) into that which pleases or angers the Lord.

It is also written, not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. Salvation, renewing and walking in the Spirit and being free of the law, having the law of the Spirit of life in Christ make us free from the law of sin and death all is determined by which spirit we follow, the Spirit of God, or our own spirit.

As for children, David said he was born in sin and shapen in iniquity. It is written foolishness (the fool says in his heart there is no God and the fool does that which is right in his own eyes) is bound up in the hearts of a child.

With all respect, I trust scripture and not my own wants or modern Christianity teachings which pick and choose which sin or abomination of which sex or sexual orientation is mentioned or called out. As written, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

May God bless.
  •  

DawnOday

Christianity is pretty simple really. The original version was superseded by the "New" version. After that just keep in mind. "Thou shalt love God with all they heart" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself. Here is the indisputable truth. There are no greater commandments than these. Unfortunately not many believe it.
Dawn Oday

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Dianne H

Dawn Oday,

You are right.

Unfortunately in love the Lord your God they use the little "g" god instead of God. Many have themselves their god and love themselves to death and everyone else next, if even at all.

They are quick to point out another's sin while justifying their own. That's pretty sad.

All of us need the mercy of Jesus in one way or another.
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SaraDanielle

I haven't been thinking about this very long, so my views are fairly un-nuanced at this point.

But it seems to me that transgenderism, intersex, these are all the results of sin in a fallen world.  But not a sin in themselves.

I haven't read the church fathers take on this, but I'd be interested in references that you have Deborah - as i struggle through my own part here. I love my church, but know I would be a pariah if I transitioned.  I think that's more a culture shock than anything biblical for most members. Church culture is pretty well slow to change.  Churches do a lot of good for community, but not for trans in general.

I do think transgenderism probably dances around sin, if taken outside of marriage.  I'm still working through how it plays against homosexuality - which I've always been convinced is a sin(but I'm rethinking that!).   

So glad to have an opportunity to discuss this with like minded folk.

Sarah.
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Brandon

#30
The bible is not clear cut on transgender issues which is why I personally don't believe it's a sin, I think the issue when it comes to being transgender is that alot of people think it's a slap in the face toward God, which <to me>is actually pretty understandable but at the same time, God had a plan for everyone before we were born, so I would think he knew and wouldn't be upset, I feel like being transgender is like being intersexed and that personally it's the Devils doing because the bible states that, he's the one that causes sicknesses, illnesses and diseases and I think
birth defects would be apart of that. Now as far as homosexuality goes, well the bible is pretty clear cut on that but I do not judge anyone and I feel you should do whatever makes you happy. Does God and Jesus love sinners? Yes he does, he sent his only son to die for us so I think he loves all of his Children and Jesus hung out with the sinners, the prostitutes, fornicaters, drug addicts etc etc and I agree that sinning doesn't make you evil, we have all fallen short of God's glory hence as to why Jesus died for us. He knows hearts. He created us.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Quote from: OU812 on August 25, 2017, 07:09:16 AM
Again, this is well-intended, but misses the point.

So you sin because it's in your nature. Easy. We can take that as a given. I'd argue that the innate nature of the human from childhood is not "deceitfully wicked", though we can assume that nobody's perfect. But there's follow-up...

So you sinned... and? What's the result? You just keep doing the same old sins over and over again and repenting? I had a bully in Catholic school who would punch me five times in ten seconds and say sorry each time. Translate that to adult form with someone who cheats on his wife, or robs people, or just lives an immoral life, and just keeps getting away with it over and over again - because his religion tells him his supreme deity will forgive him no matter what.

This is my point. You can't build a society on this stuff. If the extant definitions of sin aren't there to inspire you towards a more moral life, there's no point in even labeling that they exist - that would be of no service to bringing humans closer to alignment with the creator's vision.

If it's not something the individual is working on, sin may as well be this cargo you pick up, transport, and drop off like a trucker, really having no interaction with it. The only outcome of that would be feeling like crap, like you have flaws that you're unable to improve, and may as well just keep doing them instead of improving your lifestyle. What good is a principle if breaking it isn't really a big deal?

Especially in relation to the idea of gender identity being a sin, two words come to mind: internalized transphobia. You don't get a pet dog and send it hurtful messages all the time like the animal isn't a valued and respected member of your household. No supreme deity would do that to a creature with the learning capacity of a human - if they would, they're simply not my deity.

You said something about  the Children, actually you are not held accountable for your sins until you are old enough to know right from wrong and another thing I gotta point out is there are sins of ommision and commision meaning, sometimes we have no idea that we are even sinning and then there are some of us who know full blown well that we are sinning. Another thing is I personally feel like if you know what you are doing id wrong and you just keep doing it then I really don't think God is going to forgive you but we don't know what's in anyone's heart because only God knows that and again we have all fallen short of God's glory which is why he sent his only son to die for us, now that's love.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Rowena_Ellenweorc

This is something I'm really trying to come to grips with. As one person said, there isn't really a clear cut bible definition of whether being transgender is a sin.  So we rely on whatever the leaders of our particular denomination have said for that definition. And since Christianity has, for lack of a better word, evolved with the times since Christ walked the earth, its hard to really say.  I do not think that being transgender wasn't a thing in Christ's time, but I do think that because of the way the world worked in his day, it wasn't known as much, and people probably were, like we are today, afraid of what might happen if they said, 'Look, I don't really think this is how I meant to be.' Even mental illnesses were looked down upon, birth defects, all these things we are born inherently with.
I was born into a female body that so desperately tries to be male, with a mental state that I feel is more masculine than feminine. I feel for me, even if I felt my gender was female, I still am transgender, to correct all that is my body, it almost seems like a transition either way. Its hormones and other medications to make me fully function as a female, hormones and other medications, possibly surgeries to function as a male.  If being transgender is a sin, then why was I born in this body with this mind? Am I supposed to just be in between?
But then, how can I be in between, if gender is critical to God's plan as my religion teaches? My religion states, 'male' and 'female' are the genders.  So then, it suggests I have to pick one.  But then, it seems because I was born with female parts and earned a couple more in puberty, even though they don't work, I have to pick female. But what about the male parts of me? How can I ignore those?  To ignore them is almost like a death sentence.
But if I pick male, then don't I have to like women?  Or is it still based on the genitals that makes the sin? But then what about the people who are born intersex?  Are we to determine they are sinful just because they have physical differences from the traditional male and female?
These are just a few of the many questions I ask myself.  And to be honest, I found my answer as thus: I was born this way. This is who I am. To say I am 100% female is to sin not only against myself, but also God. I cannot choose to be female anymore than I can choose to be a cat.  If I choose female, I sentence my entire being to death, maybe not necessarily physically in the sense that I've gone and at the very least self-harmed, but emotionally and physically in the sense that I deny me and make my sense of self disappear.  And to take something God created and to end it, that... is a sin.

All that said, it also one thing to identify as a specific gender and another to undergo reassignment surgery.  I don't know if surgery truly is a sin.  But my denomination, its possible to be excommunicated for it (from what I've read. I don't know all the accounts of if that's true or not). So perhaps alterations to your body may be?  But I feel like, if you need to do it to live with yourself, then that's what you have to do.

That said, I am no longer an active member of my denomination, because while I do believe a majority of the tenets, I do not believe I am a sinner for my gender identity or my sexuality.  And I do not like some of the policies they've come out with in regards to families of LGBT+ people.

My firm belief on the matter is, God loves us all, sinners and saints alike. And to be honest, there is no one on this earth who is a saint. No one is perfect. But I feel like those who have judged harshly will be judged harsher than those who were true to themselves, even if they were sinners because of their identity or their orientation and so on.
~Ren

Born May 1989 - Assigned Female
October 2016 - Came out to self/online
Feb/March 2017 - Officially came out to husband
April 2017 - Realized I'm Non-Binary
June 2017 - Started Therapy
August 2017 - Came out to parents
October 2017 - modified FB profile
November 26, 2017 - Came out https://www.facebook.com/notes/karen-ren-losee/please-read/10155966104353223/ on FB

"Walking beside the guilty and the innocent
How will you raise your hand when they call your name?"
- Bon Jovi "We weren't Born to follow"

I am done crying over not being feminine.
I am done griping about being too masculine.
I will be me.
And that's a non-binary being.
I am... ME!

....

This... is MY story
The story of a girl trapped in a guy's body.
A boy trapped in a girl's body.
No.  Its the story of a... human being.
- From one of my poems
  •  

echo7

There isn't anything in the Bible that explicitly states that being transgender or transitioning is a sin.  Even so, I think it's difficult to reconcile Christianity with Transgender and transition.  You can do some mental gymnastics and kind of pull it off though.  Homosexuality on the other hand - the Bible is very clear about that.
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SaraDanielle

Quote from: Rowena_Ellenweorc on September 06, 2017, 12:58:18 AM
This is something I'm really trying to come to grips with. As one person said, there isn't really a clear cut bible definition of whether being transgender is a sin.  So we rely on whatever the leaders of our particular denomination have said for that definition. And since Christianity has, for lack of a better word, evolved with the times since Christ walked the earth, its hard to really say.  I do not think that being transgender wasn't a thing in Christ's time, but I do think that because of the way the world worked in his day, it wasn't known as much, and people probably were, like we are today, afraid of what might happen if they said, 'Look, I don't really think this is how I meant to be.' Even mental illnesses were looked down upon, birth defects, all these things we are born inherently with.
I was born into a female body that so desperately tries to be male, with a mental state that I feel is more masculine than feminine. I feel for me, even if I felt my gender was female, I still am transgender, to correct all that is my body, it almost seems like a transition either way. Its hormones and other medications to make me fully function as a female, hormones and other medications, possibly surgeries to function as a male.  If being transgender is a sin, then why was I born in this body with this mind? Am I supposed to just be in between?
But then, how can I be in between, if gender is critical to God's plan as my religion teaches? My religion states, 'male' and 'female' are the genders.  So then, it suggests I have to pick one.  But then, it seems because I was born with female parts and earned a couple more in puberty, even though they don't work, I have to pick female. But what about the male parts of me? How can I ignore those?  To ignore them is almost like a death sentence.
But if I pick male, then don't I have to like women?  Or is it still based on the genitals that makes the sin? But then what about the people who are born intersex?  Are we to determine they are sinful just because they have physical differences from the traditional male and female?
These are just a few of the many questions I ask myself.  And to be honest, I found my answer as thus: I was born this way. This is who I am. To say I am 100% female is to sin not only against myself, but also God. I cannot choose to be female anymore than I can choose to be a cat.  If I choose female, I sentence my entire being to death, maybe not necessarily physically in the sense that I've gone and at the very least self-harmed, but emotionally and physically in the sense that I deny me and make my sense of self disappear.  And to take something God created and to end it, that... is a sin.

All that said, it also one thing to identify as a specific gender and another to undergo reassignment surgery.  I don't know if surgery truly is a sin.  But my denomination, its possible to be excommunicated for it (from what I've read. I don't know all the accounts of if that's true or not). So perhaps alterations to your body may be?  But I feel like, if you need to do it to live with yourself, then that's what you have to do.

That said, I am no longer an active member of my denomination, because while I do believe a majority of the tenets, I do not believe I am a sinner for my gender identity or my sexuality.  And I do not like some of the policies they've come out with in regards to families of LGBT+ people.

My firm belief on the matter is, God loves us all, sinners and saints alike. And to be honest, there is no one on this earth who is a saint. No one is perfect. But I feel like those who have judged harshly will be judged harsher than those who were true to themselves, even if they were sinners because of their identity or their orientation and so on.

I think you have some really good insights into the challenges of understanding this.  And you are right - God loves us all.  I am working on the not judging part - I think that's our calling too!
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Deborah

Quote from: SaraDanielle on August 31, 2017, 07:23:23 PM
I haven't read the church fathers take on this, but I'd be interested in references that you have Deborah - as i struggle through my own part here.Sarah.

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier but I just saw it.  I'm going to post two things from St. Augustine's "City of God".  One is kind of long to keep the context.  In both cases he is referring to the priestesses of the Goddess Cybele (The Great Mother).  These were men who underwent voluntary self castration (complete) in a public ceremony and then spent their lives living as women in service to the temple.  This was in Rome and elsewhere as early as the first century and didn't disappear until the Christian State outlawed pagan religion in the late fourth century.  There are some things written by others but they are more obscure.  It may be that St. Paul, in condemning those who were "malakos" (effeminate) was speaking of the same.

Quote"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9–10, AV)

For anyone that doesn't know, Augustine wasn't an obscure writer.  He was possibly the most influential post apostolic theologian in Christian history.  He was a Bishop in the late fourth and early fifth century in what is now Tunisia in North Africa.  The book in which this is written, "The City of God", is still widely read.

QuoteThese things are bad enough, but they are small and contemptible in comparison with that most cruel abomination, or most abominable cruelty, by which either set is so deluded that neither perishes of its wound. There the enchantment of fields is feared; here the amputation of members is not feared. There the modesty of the bride is outraged, but in such a manner as that neither her fruitfulness nor even her virginity is taken away; here a man is so mutilated that he is neither changed into a woman nor remains a man.

Augustine of Hippo, "The City of God," in St. Augustin's City of God and Christian Doctrine, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. Marcus Dods, vol. 2, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1887), 137.

QuoteCHAP. 26.—CONCERNING THE ABOMINATION OF THE SACRED RITES OF THE GREAT MOTHER

1. Concerning the effeminates consecrated to the same Great Mother, in defiance of all the modesty which belongs to men and women, Varro has not wished to say anything, nor do I remember to have read anywhere aught concerning them. These effeminates, no later than yesterday, were going through the streets and places of Carthage with anointed hair, whitened faces, relaxed bodies, and feminine gait, exacting from the people the means of maintaining their ignominious lives. Nothing has been said concerning them. Interpretation failed, reason blushed, speech was silent. The Great Mother has surpassed all her sons, not in greatness of deity, but of crime. To this monster not even the monstrosity of Janus is to be compared. His deformity was only in his image; hers was the deformity of cruelty in her sacred rites. He has a redundancy of members in stone images; she inflicts the loss of members on men. This abomination is not surpassed by the licentious deeds of Jupiter, so many and so great. He, with all his seductions of women, only disgraced heaven with one Ganymede; she, with so many avowed and public effeminates, has both defiled the earth and outraged heaven. Perhaps we may either compare Saturn to this Magna Mater, or even set him before her in this kind of abominable cruelty, for he mutilated his father. But at the festivals of Saturn, men could rather be slain by the hands of others than mutilated by their own. He devoured his sons, as the poets say, and the natural theologists interpret this as they list. History says he slew them. But the Romans never received, like the Carthaginians, the custom of sacrificing their sons to him. This Great Mother of the gods, however, has brought mutilated men into Roman temples, and has preserved that cruel custom, being believed to promote the strength of the Romans by emasculating their men. Compared with this evil, what are the thefts of Mercury, the wantonness of Venus, and the base and flagitious deeds of the rest of them, which we might bring forward from books, were it not that they are daily sung and danced in the theatres? But what are these things to so great an evil,—an evil whose magnitude was only proportioned to the greatness of the Great Mother,—especially as these are said to have been invented by the poets? as if the poets had also invented this that they are acceptable to the gods. Let it be imputed, then, to the audacity and impudence of the poets that these things have been sung and written of. But that they have been incorporated into the body of divine rites and honors, the deities themselves demanding and extorting that incorporation, what is that but the crime of the gods? nay more, the confession of demons and the deception of wretched men? But as to this that the Great Mother is considered to be worshipped in the appropriate form when she is worshipped by the consecration of mutilated men, this is not an invention of the poets, nay, they have rather shrunk from it with horror than sung of it. Ought any one, then, to be consecrated to these select gods, that he may live blessedly after death, consecrated to whom he could not live decently before death, being subjected to such foul superstitions, and bound over to unclean demons? But all these things, says Varro, are to be referred to the world.1 Let him consider if it be not rather to the unclean. But why not refer that to the world which is demonstrated to be in the world? We, however, seek for a mind which, trusting to true religion, does not adore the world as its god, but for the sake of God praises the world as a work of God, and, purified from mundane defilements, comes pure to God Himself who founded the world.


Augustine of Hippo, "The City of God," in St. Augustin's City of God and Christian Doctrine, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. Marcus Dods, vol. 2, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1887), 137–138.
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Jacqueline

 :police:   Subject is locked for some clean up    :police:
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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Jacqueline

-Checks microphone- Test, test. Yup it's on.

I am unlocking this topic.  However, I have something to say here. (accompanying groans).

This topic is in the category labeled Christianity. That assumes Christianity exists as a belief and all that is upheld by Christian precepts. Put simply, it is not to debate a validity of Christianity. That could be done but not here and not in this topic. It is about whether sin in particular from the Christian point of view.

I recognize that the many different denominations of Christianity do not agree on many subjects. However, those are the rules. Let's please follow them.

Thank you. Ahem, can someone mute this mic please?

Warmly,

Jacqui
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





  •  

Deborah

Quote from: DawnOday on September 06, 2017, 12:32:10 PM
If transgenderism is a sin. Please explain DES poisoning. I don't believe we sin in utero. Do you? It was predetermined not by God but by medical malpractice using a drug without
I agree.  This begs the question, do the churches today, or ever, speak for God or or they speak for man?

Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:29–30, AV)

Yet as we can all attest, in this case the burden is not light at all.  It is rather crushingly heavy.

Jesus goes on to say, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." (Matthew 23:2–4, AV)

If this last does apply to this issue, which I believe it does, then the churches do not speak for God and we should recognize them for what they are.

Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

DawnOday

Quote from: Deborah on September 06, 2017, 01:09:58 PM
I agree.  This begs the question, do the churches today, or ever, speak for God or or they speak for man?

Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:29–30, AV)

Yet as we can all attest, in this case the burden is not light at all.  It is rather crushingly heavy.

Jesus goes on to say, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." (Matthew 23:2–4, AV)

If this last does apply to this issue, which I believe it does, then the churches do not speak for God and we should recognize them for what they are.


If religion speaks for God, why are there over 4000 different versions?  Here is a law to live by. It is self explanitory and has every right to be viewed with the same passion as in the old testament. As in, Love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no greater commandment than these. Loving God with all thy heart is number one.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

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First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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