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Moral, religious, arguments against transexualism

Started by HelenW, February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PM

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BFKate

People who ask the things you have described need a good boot up the Khyber.
Simple as that.
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HelenW


BFKate wrote, "People who ask the things you have described need a good boot up the Khyber.

Perhaps, but what if a person who just had his or her epiphany reagrding their gender dysphoria was reading this post?  What if this person had heard all of those negative things about how they were feeling?  Would it not be valuable to read some answers to these questions?  These might be questions that a newly wakened transexual needs to have addressed.

I was unable to sign on to Susan's for six months after I found the site because the only access I had was through my work computer.  But I knew I needed to learn what was happening to me and I lurked here and on other forums and I read and reread practically everything I could google on tg issues. (I almost outed myself in the process, too!)

I learned a great deal but I couldn't ask questions.  The information that I've posted in this thread is what I think was missing.

Here's the last installment:


- Unnatural
   This charge is merely a manifestation of ignorance.  Transgender behavior happens in nature all the time and through out human history as well.

- Abnormal
   Yup!  That it is!  So is cerebral palsy, ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), cleft pallets and other birth defects, muscular dystrophy, arthritis and rheumatism and so on and so on . . .   No one argues against fixing those things, do they?

- mutilation
Merriam-Webster Online defines this word as, "1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of (a body)" 
   The first definition mentions "to make imperfect."  Calling transexualism mutilation is a judgment in the eye of which beholder?  I would think that the person who has to live inside that body should be the one to judge its perfection.  So, SRS makes more perfect, not imperfect in the eyes of the person who matters most in that regard and it cannot thus be called mutilation. 
The second definition mentions destruction of "a limb or essential part."  M2F SRS is transformation, not destruction.  And, what does "essential" mean?  Essential to sustain life?  A mastectomy and hysterectomy do not remove "essential" parts of the body as long as you define essential as being necessary to sustain life.  They might be essential to reproduction but only are important if the person affected wants to reproduce.

- Threatening
   Transexuals are threatening to many because they are very much in the minority.  Because we are such a small minority we can usually be safely ignored.  Especially because those of us who pass most successfully blend in, leaving an even smaller portion to challenge the binary gender world view that our culture teaches us.  But when an obvious transexual appears that's what is so threatening.  The challenge to a very basic assumption makes people very uncomfortable.  The thought process, if these people would actually think about it, would sound like this:

If what we have been taught about something so basic as gender is incorrect, well then who knows what else "they" lied to us about?  When an assumption as basic as the binary gender concept is challenged, then all of our knowledge about who and what we are is challenged and that is very uncomfortable.  It is very very uncomfortable so we don't like those who we think is causing that discomfort.   It's like they're attacking us!
Of course there are two things wrong with that.  First, ignorance is never a good excuse.  The media, with all its sensationalism, faults and imperfections, are at least making the phenomenon known.  Second is the assumption that the discomfort is coming from the transexual and not from the person's own beliefs and judgments.  It's very common to attribute emotions to those outside of ourselves.  We are constantly told to look outside ourselves for happiness (if you buy this you will be happy, if you do this for me then I'll be happy) so it stands to reason if we believe that happiness comes from outside, then unhappiness does also!  This is taught to us from an early age and is one of the great failings of western religion and culture.  I should not have had to wait until I was in my twenties to learn that my attitudes and beliefs are the basis of my emotions, not the circumstances of my life.

- Dishonest
   The person who thinks that transexualism is dishonest is still stuck in the notion that the physical overrides the mental/emotional portions of our humanity and springs, I think, from the complete inability of those people to imagine the horror of living a life in direct contravention of their internal psyche.  One of the most painful manifestations of my dysphoria comes from my realization of how much I have lied to myself and to others throughout my entire lifetime.  I feel like a complete fraud and the upshot is that, now that I want to "come clean," I'm being encouraged to continue the deception by those who are supposed to love me and have my best interests at heart.  So, yes, untreated and unacknowledged transexualism IS dishonest but trying to do something about it, making the change, is the confession, the final denial of dishonesty.

          If someone were to challenge me regarding transexualism and they were truly willing to learn, I would use these arguments to teach them about the issue.  Yes, they are very uncomfortable questions and coming from the wrong person, with the wrong attitude, they can be infuriating.  But a little discomfort, a little conflict (if it doesn't go over the edge) can help lead towards the truth.


(2 cents, paid in full, for now)
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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BFKate

#22
Hi HelenW,
I was enjoying a moment of insight myself when I suggested the above approach.   TS people more likely than not WILL be, at some point, challenged by people with the opinions outlined so thoroughly.  When it does happen it is crushing. 

Maybe a little backgorund would be useful, I came from a family that believed in the most severe kind of christian religious fundamentalism.  When I came out as a teenager it was "Oranges are not the only fruit" meets "the Exorcist"  Not Pretty.  Not to bore you with too many details the one thing I learned from kicking against that is you can NEVER win an arguement involving definitions of things like 'natural/unnatural' . And the word 'abomination' should set big, loud, screaming alarm bells off in your head if anyone says it about being TS.   By Win I mean you can Never win people, who are set in those opinions, to your view.   It is enough of a raging torrent just coping with the thought 'I am a transexual' without giving energy to existentialist debate with people who aren't listening anyway. And they aren't hard to spot because they give themselves away with the mangey nonsense that comes out of their mouths. If someone says any of the things outlined at the start of the thread you can bet they aren't interested in knowing any more. 

Pehaps I should have used a more elegant phrase than 'a good boot up the Khyber' but hey...it made me laugh.  The point I was aiming for was save your energy for yourself, people and times where it will make a difference.
K
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Cassandra

Quotewithout giving energy to existentialist debate

Actually that would be theological debate. Existentialist philosophy centers around the concept that life has no meaning. The artwork of Jackson Pollock is an example of existentialist philosophy made manifest in art. An existentialist would not care enough to debate over the question of TS morality or any other kind of morality for that matter.

Cassie
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BFKate

#24
Hi Cassandra,
Love the correction between existentialist and theological.   I cannot argue, except I will.  When people  argue about transsexuality from a religous point of view they have left theology behind and have begun to discuss existentalism whether they like it or not.  A confusion that often happens when religion is introduced as a definition of why TS/TG is unacceptable to God.  I know what I meant and I stand by it.  These things are existentialist arguements, not theocratic.  Please remember that when you pick holes in my arguement - you are dealing with someone who is a raging alcoholic who is very rarely sober enough to care.
K  >:D



Posted at: February 22, 2006, 10:56:48 PM

Smite me, smite me, please....I am rubbish....and this whole reputation thing is beyond my very small brain....
Errr........Sorry I was burbling to myself then....


Posted at: February 22, 2006, 11:43:33 PM

The artwork of Jackson Pollock is actually an example of Money for old rope, specifically CIA money.



Posted at: February 22, 2006, 11:46:56 PM

The definition of existential is: "of or relating to existence..."
existentialism is:- " A philosophical theory emphasizing the existence of the individual person as a free and responsible agent determining his or her own development."

Theology is:- "the study of theistic religion" or " the rational analysis of religious faith"

When you are denied your existence as a person because you are Transsexual or T-anything...It is existential Not theological.
BFK
>:D




Posted at: February 22, 2006, 11:56:45 PM

What's that noise...oh...it's an existential crisis coming my way.....thank God for that, I thought it was a theocratic arguement against my past, present and future existence...Hey Ho....



Posted at: February 23, 2006, 12:09:51 AM

....and a good boot up the Kyber is STILL the best way of dealing with such people.... ;D



Posted at: February 23, 2006, 12:14:24 AM

....Sorry, dropped me 'H' there in a very Dick Van ChimneySweep way.
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