Connection between asexuality and dysphoria

[KathyLauren]

@HappyMoni asked the following question in a thread on sexual orientation.  I think it could be more than a rhetorical question.

I wonder how much gender dysphoria has to do with creating an environment that fosters an asexual view of things. Just posing a question in my head here, I wonder how many transitioners see the sexual part of transition as just too much to deal with after all the other stuff they must deal with.

I think this is a very astute observation.  I answer questions about sexual orientation with either "lesbian" or "asexual" (or both), depending on context and the phase of the Moon.  I am attracted only to women.  But I have never been very sexual, and that is a lifelong thing, going back well before I suspected that I was transgender.

I think I experienced my dysphoria as sexual confusion in my teenage and young adult years.  It didn't help that my parents did not allow me to attend the "experimental" sex-ed seminar at school (it was the late 1960s), but didn't make up the lack themselves.  I ended up a bit of an outcast.  I remember, back in my late teens, when my older brother came out as gay, thinking that was too weird for me because I found even the concept of straight sex to be pretty strange.

I didn't date much at all, and didn't lose my virginity until I was 30.  In hindsight, I can see that I didn't have the hard-wired programming that men did, but I didn't have the socialization that women did.  The worst of both worlds.

So, I think there is a lot of truth to Moni's conjecture.  In my case, it was not so much the sexual part of transition that was too much for me, but the stress of living with unexplained and unresolved dysphoria for all those years put sexual relationships on the back burner of my life.

I think my in-born orienation is lesbian, but I have learned to be asexual and don't really know any other way to be.  And that is okay.

[Anne Blake]

I agree with you Kathy, Moni, in her own typical way has introduced a great question.

My orientation is for my lesbian partner but we are both either demi sexual or border line asexual.....yet to be determined. Throughout my pre transition life I was very sexual, virtually to the extreme. I expect that this was some form of proving myself a man. But it was not very satisfying, much of the time it felt like required performances. Being post op and with a greatly reduced libido, cuddling and fondling with my partner in expressions of love keeps us both satisfied and happy. But who knows about tomorrow.

Tia Anne

[HappyMoni]

Ohhh, such a nice thread with two really good friends, I guess I'll return to the scene of the crime if I had anything to do with inspiring it. lol My comment is a bit more general and comes from a post op, full transition perspective so bear with me (or bare with me if any non-asexuals are reading this. Sorry I guess I'm in wise ass mode this AM.) I think we all react to this crazy situation of not being right with our gender in our own way. Throw out the idea of a general rule. I know what I have been through. Sex was usually mentally painful because my body was different than my mind. I had the tools (tool) to function and I used it. Much of what allowed for that functioning was images of being feminine. Now, I live those images every day. I am living as a woman, it is no longer a fantasy. Add that to the fact that I very much needed that tool to be gone from my life. After GCS, everything that was once easy physically is thrown out the window. I could see how being asexual, especially for us folks a little older, could be an appropriate way to go. Having a partner also makes this likely for some. That partner probably didn't sign up for the new reality and I could see that being even harder to be sexual if that partner is uncomfortable. Now, all you wonderful people out there, don't tackle me for saying this, but a shift in sexual orientation can also result from the insanity of transition. Don't tell me it can't because I know it can. This is another turn in the road that could cause one to turn toward celibacy. Technically that is not asexual but I don't want to dwell on semantics. Bottom line is that transitioners are survivors. (Not implying that non transitioners are not survivors.) Getting through all the stuff to make our gender right, well, whatever works is fine with me. (As long as you are nice  like @Anne Blake and @KathyLauren ) My story is up in the air. I don't want to hurt anybody. I also have a deep feeling of wanting for at least once in my life to be a sexual being with everything right. That might result in kind of an involuntary asexuality, or is it celibacy? (Dog gone it, Moni, no semantics I told you!!!! lol) This stuff is hard. I have to laugh or I'll cry. Well, that is easy enough, right girls? lol

[Rachel292]

I've only just returned to the forum , after going astray for a few years (Transition and other stuff)

This topic intreagued me.  I Identify as Asexual. However I recently had my 2nd opinion for referral for surgery with a Psychiatrist. And he put the suggestion to me that although I identify as Asexual at present , consequently only considering Cosmetic GRS at present. Should I opt for a full vaginoplasty as post -op I may feel differently. His reasoning being If I don't like what's between my legs , does it affect my thinking re wanting to get intimate with someone ? When it's gone i may be more comfortable and willing to get intimate.

As far as I am concerned , other factors are cropping up , and medically it may not be possible to have a full vaginoplasty, just a labiaplasty etc.

So will I continue to identify as Asexul post op ? I really don't know.

[HappyMoni]

Hi Rachel,
   Welcome back. Glad you are here. You don't have to look far to find ladies who have gone both ways with the surgery. I had full vaginoplasty.  It is still unclear in my mind if I will ever use it with a male partner. I will relate why, for me, it was a good decision. There is not guarantee of sensitivity in the clitoral area. Having two possible places for pleasure was a good decision. I didn't like putting all eggs in one basket, and as it worked out that was a smart personal decision. Because you are not with a partner doesn't necessarily mean you won't use it for pleasure. Unless I had a health concern, I would have only gone in that direction. I didn't really worry about dilation being an issue. I did it very frequently at first, as is required. Now it isn't such a big deal. It's my alone time. Congrats on your transition! Hope you find what is right for you.
Moni
Oh, the surgery was a perspective changer for me, that's for sure.

[Northern Star Girl]

I've only just returned to the forum , after going astray for a few years (Transition and other stuff)

This topic intreagued me.  I Identify as Asexual. However I recently had my 2nd opinion for referral for surgery with a Psychiatrist. And he put the suggestion to me that although I identify as Asexual at present , consequently only considering Cosmetic GRS at present. Should I opt for a full vaginoplasty as post -op I may feel differently. His reasoning being If I don't like what's between my legs , does it affect my thinking re wanting to get intimate with someone ? When it's gone i may be more comfortable and willing to get intimate.

As far as I am concerned , other factors are cropping up , and medically it may not be possible to have a full vaginoplasty, just a labiaplasty etc.

So will I continue to identify as Asexul post op ? I really don't know.

@Rachel292
Dear Rachel:
     I see that you became a member here almost 5 years ago in March 2014 and this is your very first posting.   I am glad to see that you finally are taking the plunge and sharing your thoughts here on this thread.

     In addition to the "Welcome Back" that our lovely member  @HappyMoni  gave to you, I think that you certainly deserve a Welcome Message from as well.

    As you post on the forums you will be able to exchange thoughts and comments with others that are experiencing many of the same things that you are.   I expect that you will be getting many members offering their thoughts and suggestions as you continue to post here. 

    This is the right place for you to be to find out what others may have to say that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.
    There are a lot of members here that will be able to identify with your situation and as you continue to feel free to share with all of us.

    I also want to warmly WELCOME you back to Susan's Place. 
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

    As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members.  When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
     ***There is a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new like-minded friends here. 

    Please once again come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
   
    I have attached important and informative LINKS that will help you to navigate around the Forums and will allow you to enjoy the features here.     
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.

Again, Welcome back to Susan's Place.
Danielle

Here are some links to the site rules and stuff that all new members should be familiar with:
 

Things that you should read

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[Northern Star Girl]

@Rachel292
Oh, and another thing Rachel...
Please plan to find your way to the Introductions Forum so that more members will be aware of your arrival.
     
Thank you again for joining Susan's Place and being involved in the Forums here.
Best wishes to you,
Danielle     

NOTE:  Now that all of this greeting stuff is done with, I gladly will let everyone have their thread back so that all can continue to pursue the answers and conversations that are being sought.

[DKTGSupport]

Some connection is there ?
One of the clever things on susans is that you can see old post. This is some of the things that I wrote:
Asexual & agender.
If I was half my age woulden't mind if I could become a neutrois.My dysphoria can be really harsh
How old are you ? I'm 42 if I knew what know today I wouldn't mind getting it done. About Orchiectomy and Penectomy.
Agender, with sometimes heavy neutrois feelings.
Hoping that in the future nullification will be accepted.
I've times when i feel that my gender could just as easy be in a syringe.

And today(2019) I wear hipsters(undies) cos I like that there's no bulge.

What have triggered the dysphoria before, was when I get my spontaneously ones  Because that it reminded me about what equipment I had that were meant for sex.

[Kylo]

Yeah I remember being like every other kid in the sense of having crushes, but having no desire to follow through on them. I knew instinctively I didn't want to play that role, so what would be the point and where would the attraction from them come if I wasn't? At least that was the thinking at the time.

I later learned that it doesn't really matter to most straight men provided you keep your feelings about your gender under the carpet and still resemble a woman. Then you just have to contend with 50% or more of your brain disliking sex while you're doing it.

It ends up not worth the bother and cognitive dissonance required unless you are extremely attached to a person. Sex for fun? The thought.

That was my thinking before transition.

Nature has played quite the cruel joke with multiple punch lines: "Feel weird and disgusted before. Feel comfortable after but now your body is weird and disgusting to everyone else. Maybe even feel more comfortable with how you used to be, after having undergone the transformation. Get your head around that", she says. 

I have a slight inkling what it's like to feel like a normal person regards the issue now. That's maybe not a good thing tbh. I don't want to have to need it or for it to be preoccupying me. I have managed to find a way of thinking about it that works in the right ways, but now I'm just wondering what the point is. Have to go find someone to do it with and all the potential pitfalls down that lovely road? Waste of time, I expect. Been down there, got the many many scars, and those were from the decent ones. 

[Alice (nym)]

When I was in my early 20s, I used to hang out with a group of guys. I wouldn't say they were friends as such because friends don't treat you the way they did (but that's a different story), more just some people I used to hang out with on a Saturday night. We would go to bars where the staff, both male and female would wear swimwear. They would spend the entire night drooling over the girls and I was completely indifferent.

It was not because I was asexual. I had an appreciation of beauty, but my sense of physical beauty changed according to the people I met. I was much more attracted to people's kindness and charisma than I was to their physical body.

For a long time I just thought I was straight but attracted to a particular type of woman. Then, not so long ago, about 6 or 7 years ago, I was in a different group at University. We formed a close bond of friendship the essentially centred around one guy who was bisexual and just oozed charisma. It was impossible not to like him. It was then that the only girl in our group pointed out that I had a thing for him. It took me completely by surprise and I denied it on the spot. But then I got to thinking about it, and she was right. I was attracted to him. So I redefined my sexuality as probably bisexual.

Then when this exploded inside me, I reached out to him because he was now a social worker who was lecturing on social work at a different university. And I knew that he was very active in the LGBTQ society when we were at university together. It seemed to me to be the right person to ask for help. So I came out to him... and he basically ditched me in the middle of town... shaking and crying. Then didn't respond to my email for over a month... then didn't respond to the follow up email at all. But again... another story.

When I explained to him about my sexuality, that I was attracted to kindness and charisma, and I said I was bisexual but not in the way that he considers it. He corrected me and said I was pansexual. For me it didn't matter what a person looked like, as long as they had a personality that I was attracted to.

Now onto my sex life. I've always considered myself as having a high sex drive (until recently). But actually, I've always considered masturbation as a chore. It was something that gave my dysphoria a bit of relief but came with lots of shame and embarrassment afterwards. In terms of being with a partner, I've had very few sexual partners. A couple of clumsy efforts as a teenager and then 2 long term relationships with my ex and my wife. But my wife is the only woman I've dated who was not bisexual.

Discounting my first experience which was two too young teenagers exploring. My first real girlfriend was bisexual and she used to do my hair and treat me like one of the girls. Then I had a long term relationship with my ex for almost 10 years. She too was bisexual and she introduced me to pegging. There were a number of reasons why we split, but one of the reasons was because I was not honest to her when she called me out as trans... that wasn't the main reason, it just confirmed a decision she had already made. But it is one that keeps replaying in my mind... what if I had been honest to her?

My wife is straight, although she has a few masculine qualities. I came out to her within a week of us dating. I was attracted to her kindness. And I was attracted to her response about me wanting to be a girl. She bought me some lingerie. Sadly, she freaked when she saw me fully dressed with a wig and make up. Another story. But when we first got together she would peg me, she was comfortable being with me as feminine in the bedroom. It wasn't until she freaked about not being a lesbian that our sex life ended. 

So I wouldn't say I was asexual... but I am definitely not your normal hetero or usual bi.  Perhaps if I had dated more hetero women I would have had a different experience about my sexuality. I am not adverse to being with a man, I've just not met many that I would consider having a relationship with were I single. I am a very loyal person, so once I am with someone, I tend to not look elsewhere. I will not leave my wife willingly. I didn't leave any of my ex girlfriends... they all broke it off with me. Being made to feel feminine in the bedroom though is a key thing about my sexuality. If I was made to feel masculine, then I probably would feel asexual. I've not had sex with my wife in over 8 years. So perhaps I am asexual after all. I know I enjoyed sex with her when we were playing with clothing, make up, and toys. I don't miss having sex with her as a man though and I honestly do not think she likes me as male... she told me that she was considering divorcing me when I was trying to be male. She just wants Alice in a man's body. It is not possible.

OK... now I don't know what I am talking about... I am pretty sure I've strayed way off topic.

[Karen]

Thanks for this thread.  Really good.

I am definitely asexual at this point.  Antiandrogens have clearly helped make this the case, but I believe I was heading in this direction long before.   

My sexual activity before was limited, and more important, was tied to images and fantasies of being female or wanting to be female.   Sex was a way of resolving this desire, followed by guilt and shame for having these thoughts.   

Prior to having words to describe by sense of self, I had mild to moderate dysphoria with by genitals.   Now that I have connected all the dots, by genital dysphoria is very high.  I wish I could fast track GCS ahead of all other transition elements.   I would likely do a full GCS, but not for sex reasons....just to be me and feel as complete as possible. 

Add to all of this, the fact my spouse did not marry a woman and does not desire a woman.  This makes have or wanting sex zero.   I can't bring myself to having sex with the thought I am seen as a man, and the thought of using "it" creates significant discomfort for me. 

All this said....no desire for sex.  Lots of desire for love and affection.   At this point, I can't see this changing and that's more than ok for me.

Hugs

Karen

[CallMeV]

  This is a great thread! I've been thinking about related topics alot recently.
   I've never really engaged in a successful relationship and for the longest time I questioned whether I was somewhere on the asexual spectrum. But that label never really fit because I had both sexual and romantic desires and I can hold an unrequited crush like a champ. I just never was able to 'close the deal' so to speak.
  I've only recently began realizing where things break down for me. Similar to alot of people who have already posted, dysphoria from my body being wrong and people perceiving my incorrectly has been a super effective relationship killer for me.
  I think I may end up being asexual in practice until I can transition more or find someone who can actually see me correctly.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[KimOct]

Yes this is a great thread and timely as I am struggling with this very topic.  I have been celibate for way too long.  OK I always talk about how open I am here.... ugh.  7 years.  Yikes.  Do I miss the sex yeah sort of but even more I miss the hugging, cuddling, kissing just touching.

What is messing my head up is that I had this version of myself as a cis woman and now reality is setting in.  My body is far too male.  Orchiectomy only, small breasts, no FFS.  I can't imaging having sex with either gender.  I don't feel that my body is right to have sex with a man and I don't want to be the 'male' with a woman. 

Yes I understand that gay sex is an option and I have zero problem with that in theory but the thought of intimacy with either sex would cause me body dysphoria.  UGH this sucks.  If I had the proverbial magic wand or genie I guess I would want to have a much more feminine body and have sex with a guy, but I find women more attractive probably because that is my only experience.  I am opening up some seriously messed up stuff here but I always encourage others to be honest so I am just walking the talk.

Great subject.

[Allie Jayne]

I once heard a biologist answer a question at a seminar, "why are there so many changes to the biological names of organisms?" His answer was that scientists are always trying to impose rules on organisms which don't have any rules. I think we do the same. There are millions of combinations of sexuality at any one time, and they change as conditions do. How can we put ourselves in boxes while we are constantly evolving. Sure, some people are sure of their sexual identity all their lives, but I suspect, more than you might imagine, people at some time question where they are at.

It makes sense that people with gender confusion will be more self critical, looking for something to anchor their self image to. But with greater life changes than most people, it may be hard to find a sexual identity with any duration to it.

I'm a father of 2 amazing people, from an uncomfortable coupling. I did not feel heterosexual. My second wife was a sexual dominant, and taught me how to please her. I almost felt heterosexual for a few years until I simply couldn't perform. Then I was confused. I didn't desire either men or women, so I felt asexual. My psych uncovered a desire for me to be with a man once I felt fully like a woman. She suggests I am female heterosexual. I have doubts I'll ever fully identify as a woman, so where do I fit in? I am Me, unique and changing. I'm not looking for someone else's box I can conform to, life is challenging enough as it is!

Allie

[Tribble]

I once heard a biologist answer a question at a seminar, "why are there so many changes to the biological names of organisms?" His answer was that scientists are always trying to impose rules on organisms which don't have any rules. I think we do the same. There are millions of combinations of sexuality at any one time, and they change as conditions do. How can we put ourselves in boxes while we are constantly evolving. Sure, some people are sure of their sexual identity all their lives, but I suspect, more than you might imagine, people at some time question where they are at.

It makes sense that people with gender confusion will be more self critical, looking for something to anchor their self image to. But with greater life changes than most people, it may be hard to find a sexual identity with any duration to it.

I'm a father of 2 amazing people, from an uncomfortable coupling. I did not feel heterosexual. My second wife was a sexual dominant, and taught me how to please her. I almost felt heterosexual for a few years until I simply couldn't perform. Then I was confused. I didn't desire either men or women, so I felt asexual. My psych uncovered a desire for me to be with a man once I felt fully like a woman. She suggests I am female heterosexual. I have doubts I'll ever fully identify as a woman, so where do I fit in? I am Me, unique and changing. I'm not looking for someone else's box I can conform to, life is challenging enough as it is!

Allie

Thank you for this post!

Ugh.  Boxes.  I've always wanted one.  I've never been able to find mine, and perhaps you've helped me here.  Perhaps there never will be one box for me.

I was sexually active as soon as I could be.  I wasn't exactly a stud that would have sex any chance I could get, but it was an important part of my life for many years.  As above, I tended toward long-term, monogamous and dedicated relationships.  I'm not in any way a swinger nor do I have a desire for open relationships.  I love the security of being in a strong, loving relationship with one person.

I didn't realize, though, that I was living my life vicariously.  Oh, I've always known what I wanted to be, but I never thought it possible without what I dread the most: ridicule.

It was after I came out to my ex-wife the first time and then went back in the closet that she asked if I was living my life vicariously through her.  I denied it, of course, but I was.

After I did finally begin transition and start HRT, I discovered for the first time that I even could be attracted to a man.  Unfortunately, it was my best friend whose specific commandment was that he was fine with whatever I did as long as I did not hit on him.  My emotions got the better of me and I pursued him.  That was pretty much the end of our friendship.

When my emotions finally settled down and settled in, I realized that I'm bi, but when I met my husband, I began to think about it more.  I'm not physically attracted to most men (some...ooh, yeah, me wanty!), but I'm attracted to certain personalities and intellects.  Pansexual, I guess.  I was thinking that was something else, but as described above, that's me.  Once I'd been in my relationship with my husband for a few years, I realized I was pretty asexual.  I'd been performing for him out of duty, but effectively, I had no desire to have "pretend sex" with a man.  I say that as I'm still pre-op, but I have had an orchie.  Things may change once I'm post-op (still crossing my fingers!), but as it stands, while I do get sexual urges, I don't really feel the need to share them with anyone.

My dysphoria exists in all parts of my life, but it's strongest with what's between my legs.  I've purged a couple of times and sometimes I think I could happily live my life as an empathic and sensitive "transman" if I could only have my dysphoria removed from me.  The more I think about it, I do want to live MY life, but genitals are an important part.

So, yeah, effectively, I'm asexual and view our world as hyper-sexualized.  I tried explaining my views on the world to many people, but few get it.  I might just be sensitive to it because it doesn't feel right to me.

If I were with a woman, I'm sure I'd feel pretty similar right now.  As a matter of fact, I had a breakdown to the point of crying once when I was dating a woman after my transition and we were "getting it on" as it were.  I couldn't do it.  I didn't want anyone to have anything to do with my parts, not even someone I cared for deeply.

I have no idea if this will all change once I have GCS.  In ways, I hope so.  In others, I hope I retain my sensitivity to the over-sexualized nature of our society.

[SeptagonScars]

The more disconnected I've been from my body and its sex traits, the less sexual I've felt I could be. Having been confused by what my sexual orientation is and being traumatised by sexual abuse have also been very important factors for me though, and all those issues very much intertwine.

But to focus on my dysphoria... why yes, I had a period of around 3 years in which I thought I must be asexual cause I had no sexual interest in anyone or anything for such a long time, in my mid 20's. I know wasn't actually asexual but that I mislabelled my temporary (albeit very long-lasting) sex-repulsion as that. But it was my dysphoria that made me not want to include my own body in anything sexual, which basically kept me perpetually turned off.

I was early to mid transition back then, which is interesting cause it pretty much means transitioning medically wasn't what helped me find back to my sexuality. Although I was relatively happy with transitioning back then. I was effectively living a lie so strong I even fooled myself and didn't know what was going on under my own surface.

But as things really were, my dysphoria was a symptom of my traumas, and it wasn't until I started acknowledging I had underlying issues with my traumas that I also started to want to be sexual again. But then the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction and I became hypersexual which lasted for a couple of years until rather recently, a few months into my detransition.

Then discovering I'm a lesbian and that my entire sex life until that point had only been self-harming, I made quite drastic changes. No more hookups, no more trying to repeat the sexual abuse I had been through. So now I don't consider myself either particularly sex-repulsed or hypersexual, but need to be more careful and caring of myself sexually, especially because of my traumas.

My dysphoria is still there, although now in a different form and also mixed with grief and regret. It does interfere with intimacy for me, which is difficult to balance but not impossible. Sometimes I feel too broken to enjoy sex and get put off by myself, but in general I can enjoy it and find ways to work around/with my dysphoria.

That I did transition is unfortunate for me cause I know now that if I hadn't done it I wouldn't have been dysphoric about these male/masculinised traits I have now. If I had only done proper therapy right away. So that sucks, but at the same time feeling this connected to my body and birth sex, as I do now, grounds me with myself like never before. It makes sex an often healing experience. My detrans situation is very much both dark and bright. I gained some, I lost some. Now what I'll do with that from here, I'm not sure. But I'll move forward in some manner.

Being sexual is important to me, but only if it's healthy and positive, which I haven't been good at in the past. I've known I'm into women since my early teens but suppressed it, and decided to only be with men as I had mistakenly labelled myself bisexual. Then realised I'm a lesbian cause of understanding my traumas more, the more I looked into them, and cause I had just started to accept I'm into women.

Also I couldn't ever get myself to be with women as a man myself, much because I've never had a dominant bone in my body and was terrified of the thought of being in a straight relationship as an effeminate man with a more dominant girlfriend. The masculinity I wore back then was very superficial, and even transitioning couldn't save me from my internalised homophobia. But then in my detransition I started to really feel that being with a more masculine woman as a feminine woman myself is where I'd feel the most at home and right.

I'm still both relieved and scared about that. I know I'm still unwittingly fighting it. It really is a process to come to fully accept. Probably why I struggle so hard to accept it is because of what a hell I went through to get to this point.