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M2F vs. F2M participation

Started by Asche, November 11, 2025, 08:17:45 AM

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Asche

A while back, I read that some huge US-wide trans survey found that there were roughly equal numbers of M2F, F2M, and non-binary trans people.  (Well, among the people who participated :-) )
This more or less agrees with my own experience in real-life trans spaces.

However, it seems like at Susan's, and a number of other on-line spaces, the M2Fs outnumber everyone else, both in terms of active posters and in terms of posts.  Some possible theories for this that come to mind:

1.  Non-M2Fs don't need support.

2.  The M2Fs crowd out the others, especially the F2Ms (I've seen this happen on another site -- the F2M subforum was positively overrun by M2Fs and their opinions.)

Also, I have heard that non-binary trans folks often feel invalidated and disrespected by the binary trans folks, to the point that some refuse to call themselves "trans."  I've seen this in action on-line, BTW.

3.  There are other venues where F2Ms talk to one another, where they don't have to worry about being drowned out by AMABs.  Maybe also venues for non-binary folks (I was at one time aware of one such venue.)

Any thoughts on this?
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CPTSD

Lori Dee

I always enjoy your questions like this, Asche. You make me think, and that helps me understand other points of view.

I agree that we don't seem to see enough of our trans-brothers on the forums, but I believe there is a reason for that, and some of them you have touched upon.

At the risk of sounding too stereotypical and suggesting a firm binary framework, the fact is that society does impose such expectations. I believe that all transgender and some intersex people express themselves within those societal expectations. The result appears as transfeminine people like myself, expressing femininity in the ways that society expects femininity to look like (appearance, clothing, speech, etc.) The same applies to our transmasculine brothers. They are expressing their masculinity in ways that conform to societal expectations.

Growing up, I noticed right away that girls hang out together and chat, and enjoy doing that. While at the same time, the boys were busy playing sports, working out, and doing "guy" things. I think that is what we are seeing. I don't believe it is a conscious effort to behave that way; we are subconsciously just trying to fit in, whatever that means.

If we stretch the cliche even further, as you said, "non-M2F" don't need support = "real men don't ask for directions", "real men don't need instructions", "real men don't talk about their feelings", etc. I know that this is taking it to the extreme, but that is how many of us were raised. So it is unsurprising that those who are transitioning toward masculinity would adopt these as their own mantras.

This also creates much of the dysphoria that we feel when we first start. Many members here have said that they worry about "passing". Their concern is actually if they can learn all of the "necessary" behaviors and make the changes to their appearance that are acceptable within societal guidelines. They struggle with this, and each of us recognizes that struggle because we have been there ourselves.

But then, when we step back and look at people who transitioned before us, we find that they have accepted themselves and just go about their lives doing what they enjoy without a lot of attention focused on what society thinks. Our interests did not change. We have many members here who continue to enjoy what were typically "guy things" from wrenching on cars, auto racing, motorcycling, and even a gold miner.

I suspect that if we could hear from just as many F2Ms, they would tell us that they still have interests that might be considered "girly".

So, it could be that what we are seeing is a bunch of women enjoying chatting with each other, and the guys are just being guys doing their thing. You are correct that that would show up as higher numbers of M2Fs in chat rooms and on the forums. I can see where our non-binary friends might feel out of place or underrepresented in such spaces. We want them to feel welcome here and know that we are allies, but I can see that it is hard to chat if there is no one to chat with, too.

That makes my heart ache because we don't want them to feel alone. The fact that they do not fit the mold is exactly what makes them so valuable. I have learned so much from you, and learning about the non-binary experience teaches us all. If we can learn from that, the world would become a much better place.
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Resmiranda

Quote from: Asche on November 11, 2025, 08:17:45 AMAlso, I have heard that non-binary trans folks often feel invalidated and disrespected by the binary trans folks, to the point that some refuse to call themselves "trans."  I've seen this in action on-line, BTW.

I've definitely seen that too, but I feel like that's a thing that has shifted over the decades, but perhaps insufficiently. I remember getting the idea that if I wasn't trying to achieve some idealized femininity with each waking moment, then it was because I wasn't sufficiently serious. I vaguely remember visiting here one of my stop-ins over the decades and finding a top-level 'Androgyne' category for the first time and going: Oh wow, there's enough people like me that we get our own board, now!

Nevertheless, I carried that feeling like I wasn't really trans-enough for a long while, and it certainly was damper.

To OP's question though, I wonder if the spaces are just perhaps different. I can't speak regarding FtM folx, but the stomping grounds for most enbys I know is now Discord, and there are a lot of us in a lot of servers, to the point where my local state's Trans Together discord server is weighted far on the gender-nonconforming side.

But conversations in Discord are wildly different than the deliberate process of a message board.
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CosmicJoke

I think MtF (especially if they don't start HRT until later in life) generally have more problems with passing. In most cases an FtM will become passable through their HRT (provided they had top surgery and their downstairs situation is kept secret.) I'm not 100% sure about non-binary people but I think not all of them might even consider themselves transgender.

This is all just my opinion and I could be wrong though.
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Lori Dee

Quote from: CosmicJoke on November 11, 2025, 08:42:01 PMI'm not 100% sure about non-binary people but I think not all of them might even consider themselves transgender.

I think that might be true. Especially if they are comfortable as they are and have no reason to transition.
My Life is Based on a True Story <-- The Story of Lori
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Sephirah

The guys I've spoken to here, they just don't generally put themselves out there as much. And aren't often in a rush to talk about stuff. It's probably just a guy thing. I know that's kind of what I had drilled into me while growing up and something that has taken a long time to try and shake off. The girls are much more eager to talk because it's like... letting a bird out of a cage of social conditioning. The guys I've spoken to here, they just... act like guys. I don't know how else to describe it. You have to twist their arm to find out what time it is, lol. Not that this is a bad thing, but it does skew the numbers because they just don't seem to be as chatty. Doesn't mean there aren't a whole heap of them watching what goes on.

I can't speak for non-binary people because I haven't had the pleasure of meeting many on a deeper level.
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