Frustration over not being able to pass as nonbinary

[darksou]

Hello, everyone.

I disappeared for a while since I no longer knew what to add to the conversation, but now maybe I can. Lately I have been calling myself a neutrois man since this is the best description I have for myself. I just say I'm nonbinary to people outside the LGBT community and it works well enough.

This is both a rant and maybe a need for some advice. The fact is that I have lived most of my life being perceived as a girl or a woman. Being seen as a man is something that is very new to me, despite the fact that it feels like I have been living this way forever. I used to think that maybe I could live stealth and turns out it bothers me. Took me a while to understand if it was my discomfort over hiding being transgender or something related to me not being fully a man.

I recall how things were at the time people were confused about whether I was a man or a woman. I miss those times, although I deeply despise when I was treated like a woman. I wish I could be seen as not a man nor a woman, but that is quite impossible considering how binary our society is on this aspect. I'm also naturally masculine, which means people are more likely to see me as a man when I'm just being myself.

So far, my transition goals didn't change much, except for the fact that I'm no longer sure which bottom surgery would work best for me or even if any of my options are what I need to be comfortable with myself. It would also be much harder for me to get any of these done. I'd have to travel and get a huge amount of money I'd probably rather spend with something else.

Anyway, this is what I have to say and I'm not sure if anyone here experiences something similar to that or even if there is anything that would work best than what I'm already doing.

Thanks for reading.

[Lori Dee ✅]

Welcome back to the Forum!

You may have been reading a related post in a different subforum. The issues are the same. We strive to be seen by others as we see ourselves. The question then is, how do you see yourself?
It is true that we live in a very binary society, but due to all the backlash against our community, the silver lining is that we are being recognized as existing. We are not mythical creatures. We are real people who work, pay bills, and live our lives just like everyone else.

We must first define what it is we seek. Do we wish to appear more feminine, more masculine, or something in between? It is not all about makeup, clothing, and hairstyles. Our behavior, mannerisms, and voice can carry a lot of the weight. And when I say "voice," I don't mean pitch; I mean how we use it. Men and women speak differently, and it is helpful to know the difference. The way we walk, sit, and even stand all signal gender in many ways.

I am probably not the best person to give advice on this, so these are just some things to think about when deciding how you wish to express yourself.

[CosmicJoke]

Hello, everyone.

I disappeared for a while since I no longer knew what to add to the conversation, but now maybe I can. Lately I have been calling myself a neutrois man since this is the best description I have for myself. I just say I'm nonbinary to people outside the LGBT community and it works well enough.

This is both a rant and maybe a need for some advice. The fact is that I have lived most of my life being perceived as a girl or a woman. Being seen as a man is something that is very new to me, despite the fact that it feels like I have been living this way forever. I used to think that maybe I could live stealth and turns out it bothers me. Took me a while to understand if it was my discomfort over hiding being transgender or something related to me not being fully a man.

I recall how things were at the time people were confused about whether I was a man or a woman. I miss those times, although I deeply despise when I was treated like a woman. I wish I could be seen as not a man nor a woman, but that is quite impossible considering how binary our society is on this aspect. I'm also naturally masculine, which means people are more likely to see me as a man when I'm just being myself.

So far, my transition goals didn't change much, except for the fact that I'm no longer sure which bottom surgery would work best for me or even if any of my options are what I need to be comfortable with myself. It would also be much harder for me to get any of these done. I'd have to travel and get a huge amount of money I'd probably rather spend with something else.

Anyway, this is what I have to say and I'm not sure if anyone here experiences something similar to that or even if there is anything that would work best than what I'm already doing.

Thanks for reading.

Hi. Initially before I began transitioning I wanted to be androgynous in my presentation. I am MtF but that was just where my comfort zone was at the time. That was before I began the estrogen therapy or even anti androgens for that matter.

I now identify as a woman and want to be seen as one as well. The bottom surgery is all I really need at this point. I have had an orchiectomy years ago, but I don't think i'm one of those MtF that can be content with just that.

If you want my honest opinion I feel like the way I am presenting is alot more important than whether I have had surgery or not. I believe gender and sex are two very different things.

I guess what I am trying to say is just be who you are comfortable being. If surgery is something you desire only take that step if/when you are ready for it.

[darksou]

Welcome back to the Forum!

You may have been reading a related post in a different subforum. The issues are the same. We strive to be seen by others as we see ourselves. The question then is, how do you see yourself?
It is true that we live in a very binary society, but due to all the backlash against our community, the silver lining is that we are being recognized as existing. We are not mythical creatures. We are real people who work, pay bills, and live our lives just like everyone else.

We must first define what it is we seek. Do we wish to appear more feminine, more masculine, or something in between? It is not all about makeup, clothing, and hairstyles. Our behavior, mannerisms, and voice can carry a lot of the weight. And when I say "voice," I don't mean pitch; I mean how we use it. Men and women speak differently, and it is helpful to know the difference. The way we walk, sit, and even stand all signal gender in many ways.

I am probably not the best person to give advice on this, so these are just some things to think about when deciding how you wish to express yourself.

Thank you for your reply. I currently see myself as a neutrois man and I'm in a moment where I'd like to express more of my neutrois identity, which is hard to when I don't have much reference of what that would be like. It is different from seeing how men are expected to be and how they are like in reality.

The best advice I got to show this was by checking traits that are shared between both men and women without being seen as weird by society. That's still a hard balance, but I'm currently looking at the fashion advice that is given to nonbinary folks who want an androgynous look.

My behavior in general is mostly masculine or at least seen as such. People often assume I'm a straight cis man when I'm really not (I have a boyfriend). They probably assume my "weirdness" is related to me being autistic, so there's that.

I hadn't checked out how men and women talk. That's definitely something worth looking at. I happen to be mostly masculine and I really love masculine people of all genders from what I've seen. Sadly, I don't know how to pull it off in a way that could be perceived as nonbinary.

Thank you for your reply.

[darksou]

Hi. Initially before I began transitioning I wanted to be androgynous in my presentation. I am MtF but that was just where my comfort zone was at the time. That was before I began the estrogen therapy or even anti androgens for that matter.

I now identify as a woman and want to be seen as one as well. The bottom surgery is all I really need at this point. I have had an orchiectomy years ago, but I don't think i'm one of those MtF that can be content with just that.

If you want my honest opinion I feel like the way I am presenting is alot more important than whether I have had surgery or not. I believe gender and sex are two very different things.

I guess what I am trying to say is just be who you are comfortable being. If surgery is something you desire only take that step if/when you are ready for it.

I plan on having top surgery and hysterectomy done. I hadn't decided what I will do with my genital situation yet, but I know I am dysphoric about it. That's why I'm thinking about this, I'd say. I'm also on HRT with testosterone and very happy with the changes I've got.

[Maid Marion]

Where you live makes a big difference. Acceptance of different genders varies greatly across the USA.
In the past few years a lot of people in the USA have moved to more accepting places.
While some places seem to have gotten less accepting as well.  At least according to the new laws that have been passed.

Voice training and mannerisms are a big influence in helping people decide gender. 
Folks see you walk and talk and immediately come to a decision.

[darksou]

Where you live makes a big difference. Acceptance of different genders varies greatly across the USA.
In the past few years a lot of people in the USA have moved to more accepting places.
While some places seem to have gotten less accepting as well.  At least according to the new laws that have been passed.

Voice training and mannerisms are a big influence in helping people decide gender. 
Folks see you walk and talk and immediately come to a decision.

Thanks for the tips, but I don't live in the USA. I'm in Brazil. Still, you're right. I might need to do some voice training since my voice became naturally masculine and my manneirisms are probably very masculine too.

[Maid Marion]

Google suggests large urban centers in the South like Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro.
Small rural communities as being less accepting.

The same is true in the USA.  Large urban centers are better than small rural communities.

[darksou]

Google suggests large urban centers in the South like Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro.
Small rural communities as being less accepting.

The same is true in the USA.  Large urban centers are better than small rural communities.

Yeah. I'm aware. Where I live is a big city.

[Maid Marion]

I happen to be mostly masculine and I really love masculine people of all genders from what I've seen. Sadly, I don't know how to pull it off in a way that could be perceived as nonbinary.

A common fashion mistake is to wear what you love.  Colors that clash with your skin tone.
Clothes that look good on a certain body type but not your body type.

What may work is to combine elements that are both masculine and feminine.
Perhaps wearing a collared golf polo and long pants with high heels.

[darksou]

A common fashion mistake is to wear what you love.  Colors that clash with your skin tone.
Clothes that look good on a certain body type but not your body type.

What may work is to combine elements that are both masculine and feminine.
Perhaps wearing a collared golf polo and long pants with high heels.

I wouldn't say the clothes look bad with me, they just don't generally work to make me androgynous. I will see if I can change that to look more gender neutral.