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.... at the grocery store

Started by Cindi Jones, June 13, 2008, 11:02:17 PM

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Cindi Jones

As Brick and I entered the grocery store today, we were approached by a young woman seeking signatures for a petition.  I'm always willing to support a worthy cause so I asked her what it was about.

She told me that "the government has passed legislation teaching homosexuality to our children in public schools and we're collecting...."

"I'm sorry", I said.  "I happen to think that it is appropriate to teach all of our children that all people deserve to be treated like human beings. No thank you."

Had I been alone, I would have collected enough information so I could alert our local politicos.  But I can't for the life of me remember the darned numbers for the bill.  It was something like HB77 and I don't know if it was California or the US congress.  Does anyone else know which bill this might be?

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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tekla

the government has passed legislation teaching homosexuality to our children in public schools

Well, if they teach it as well as they teach math, government or English grammar, then they will never learn it either.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Cindi Jones

Quote from: tekla on June 13, 2008, 11:04:23 PM
the government has passed legislation teaching homosexuality to our children in public schools

Well, if they teach it as well as they teach math, government or English grammar, then they will never learn it either.

As I was leaving I wondered whatever happened to the heated arguments against the teaching of contraception devices.  Are they teaching this in the schools still?  Or are the kids left to figure it out for themselves?

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Natasha

Quote from: Cindi Jones on June 13, 2008, 11:02:17 PM
I can't for the life of me remember the darned numbers for the bill.  It was something like HB77 and I don't know if it was California or the US congress.  Does anyone else know which bill this might be?

Cindi

SB777!

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/sen/sb_0751-0800/sb_777_bill_20070223_introduced.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58130
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Hazumu

The petition you saw was probably this one:

http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_j.htm#1334

Basically, it removes sex orientation and gender identity from the law, making it once again legal to discriminate against LGBT with impunity.

Cindi, I'd love to hear what they TOLD you the bill would do and compare that to what the text on the petition said.

QuoteEducation. Modified Definition of Discriminatory Practices in Public School. Statute.
    Summary Date: 04/01/08 Circulation Deadline: 08/29/08 Signatures Required: 433,971

    Proponent: Karen England

    Removes statutory language prohibiting teaching or school activity that "promotes a discriminatory bias" against persons based on specified characteristics. Inserts new language prohibiting teaching or school activity that "reflects adversely upon" persons based on certain characteristics, including race, sex, color, creed, disability, national origin, religion or ancestry. New language excludes sexual orientation, gender identity or behavior, or association with persons with specified characteristics. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local government: This measure would have no direct fiscal effect on state or local government. (Initiative 08-0008.) (Full Text)
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Cindi Jones

Karen,

The woman additionally told me that the bill had "been passed in the legislature without public knowledge and that it promoted the teaching of homosexualism in public schools."

Looking back, it seems likely that I could have shut her down and invalidated all of her signatures with her tactics.  I just don't know how that might be done.  Does anyone have experience in doing this in a situation like this?

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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ChefAnnagirl

Hi Cindi -

I Have a lot of ideas, some of which seemed effective for me during the time that the signatures were being gathered here in my county in Maryland about the Trans non-discrimination bill we are still deeply embroiled with.

With the help of our largest local Equality group (Equality Maryland), we were able to get the word out to dozens of local LGBT friendly people, as well as the constant networking i and others undertook to reach fellow trans people and friends that were able to devote time to support the resistance efforts to the petition gathering efforts here.

Make sure you know the issue. Find out if there were public hearings, and where and when they were held. Create positive opposing materials if possible that highlight the most positive aspects of the legislation. Hand these out to potential signers that would otherwise be uninformed enough to be taken advantage of by these folks' fearmongering and distortionist tactics.

We were able to quickly create an active network of people that were locally on the lookout for several weeks, in part coordinated by a number of core folks that helped keep the network in a continually active status.

Essentially, when one of us would find out that there were petition circulators that had appeared on a site such as a school or shopping center, the word would go out, and anyone that could respond or get there in any way whatsoever, would do that. I spent hours and hours driving from one site to another off and on for days locating and directly confronting these people wherever i could possibly find them, and no matter how many of them there were.

If i found a petition site, i would stop there, get my briefcase, call the other key members in our network, and let them know i was about to engage these folks and would keep them posted - if i was hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned, to then send (if possible) additional support if anyone else could be available anywhere in the entire area to help,  if they were not already engaged with other groups elsewhere at the same times.

Depending on the number of people these petition groups may have had at any one location determined the level of priority in terms of how much positive support would be needed to confront the petitioners. There was never enough of us to go around to stop all the damage being done, but we were able to substantially reduce the number of signatures which may have been collected otherwise.

I had a great deal of effectiveness, in a baseball cap and very casually dressed, walking right up to these folks, asking them about what they were doing in a polite, curious, and solicitous manner, and getting them to start talking about what it is exactly they were trying to do.

Using basically classic cross-examination tactics with many of them - walking up, using concerned conversational tones, asking them to talk about "the issue" (from their very skewed and biased viewpoint) and then casually setting the trap by getting them to spew lies and distortions which were then easily jammed back down their throats before they could even guess (too late) it was already being snapped shut hard on them.

Knowing this specific issue as well as i did from the very beginning, and knowing the kind of rhetoric that was specifically going to be used by them ahead of time, made that part reasonably simple. I heard the same sorts of things about our own issue that you mentioned you have heard there about this one (God, they must be cloning this stuff). 

I was told things like "there were never any public hearings on this issue" or "there had been hearings, but it was purposely kept on the D/L from the general public so that our county council could just run roughshod over the residents of the region and slip one by under their noses and  under the table".   Knowing this, i was always prepared - i carried dozens of copies of my own testimonies to our county council in my briefcase, which took place in VERY public hearings and which had in fact been well publicized with the general public having had a good shot at it already.

None of this was true, of course, and basically someone had given these people talking points, flyers, handouts with scary language, many of which were only partial truths at best, and even many complete falsifications. We quickly learned that they will stop at nothing, and use any tactic including outright falsification to get these signatures. It will do well to find the main opposition groups' websites and blogs, and look at exactly what they are doing and saying before you confront them if possible. We got a lot of valuable intelligence, even some anonymously from someone apparently inside of their camps that were actually in support of us.

Simple to set that kind of a trap by simply saying to them, right off the bat - "so, is it true that i heard there were never any public hearings held about this issue, or not fairly publicized ?" 
Of course, i already knew how they were going to answer, and if they hadn't read me at that point as trans so far, they immediately and enthusiastically began their spiel. After the first 2 or 3 lies had passed their lips, then i would begin to ask more devil's advocates questions - see how solid each individual was in terms of stance or personal knowledge before beginning all out frontal debate and engagement.

In my mind, already picking out who i was going to begin debate with first among their groups - the most friendly, the least truly knowledgeable, the most reasonable and uninformed ones first, that are just following the lead of the strongest members like blinded sheep in fear. -Talking to the easiest to engage, and keep them engaged and occupied, as well as genuinely trying to actually flip them enough to really begin to ask themselves  - "what the hell am i really doing out here, and have i been misled myself by those that got me to come out here in the first place and do this in the freezing cold (or blazing heat, depending on where you are or what time of year)....

After that part, then it was time to openly reveal my goals and intentions, and begin beating back their lies with hard fact right to their faces - such as handing them copies of MY OWN public testimony (that supposedly never had even occurred) that i had given during those very hearings. After their initial shock at realizing they had been backed in to various corners by their own misinformation, it often led to anger and frustraion on their part, and sometimes renewed vigor and even visible desperation, frustration, and anger, in their attempts to gather more signatures (which dosent make them look good, either)....

I found if i was able to begin reasonable dialogue and debate with any of the circulators, that effectively took at least that one person off of their lines for as long as i could keep them engaged. Several times i engaged several at once, and ruined their entire effort from that moment forward until they were done and packed up and left.

I literally dropped their numbers by 50% or more, by myself at almost every petition station that i engaged them at by doing just exactly this. As well, once i was no longer able to keep someone specific engaged with me, i would turn my efforts on the next one if there was more than one person. If that proved to be unsuccessful, then i began to engage the public/potential signers - watching the petitioners, and getting to the people they were about to approach before they could even get to them, or begin talking to that potential signer at the same time as a petitioner.

This causes hesitation and sometimes doubts, especially if you have a completely different set of facts that voter had not even heard yet because all they have up until the moment they see YOU, they are an easy sale and an easy target for these fear-sellers.

Many people, if stopped and asked to take a minute to really look at all sides before signing,  realized they had only heard one side of the issue (a distorted one at that), and needed to study the issue better before affixing their signature to a legal document that would become public record.

That's another good point too - some potential signers dont even realize they might be subject to public or legal scrutiny once they have signed such a thing, and it's a good idea to tell them that, should the issue come to a debate or referendum such as that which we are facing right now.

I would engage them even right up until the point of them almost signing the blasted things, and doing exactly the same things with my own materials and handouts and dialogue about the issue to anyone that might have stopped even long enough to potentially be sucked into the debate. 

I Literally begged people not to sign because they were about to affix their signature to a legal document which would literally hurt and damage my life directly - that stopped more than one potential signer dead in their tracks and say "i think maybe i'd better study this a little more before i make this decision to sign"...

Engage, engage, engage - and don't stop until you have effectively begun to interefere with their efforts, ESPECIALLY if you CAN catch them in lies, and get them to retract or stand down on any of their rhetoric right there on the spot, or get them to use all their energy in debating the issue with you, and/or trying to avoid you, instead of gathering signatures. I was actually trying to wake these people up and show them how they themselves had been so badly used and misled, and were now passing that onto their fellow citizens. 

I had the police called on me twice - i don't care. An arrest would have been quite excellent for the benefit of friendly local media coverage, but i didnt get that wish. As it was, i had a good, almost humourous rapport with some of the resonding officers by simply being myself.  Simply put - polite, articulate, non-combative, but still firm and resolute, and yet willing to do whatever they asked me to do (stand at least 10 feet away from these folks, etc.) instead of the hype they had been given by those that had called them in the first place.

Also, another thing that was very effective in several locations was to simply go into the store or stores that they are petitioning in front of, and  A.) complain to the manager about feeling harassed, and also breifly explian that you feel they are trying to get signatures on a petition which promotes discrimination. and  B.) find out if they have permission to be there in the first place.

We literally had several groups ejected from both schools and shopping centers by calling their bluff and finding out they had no proper permission to be there AT ALL, or were doing this at times which had not been specified.

Many large store chains have guidelines which allow groups, on a limited basis, usually to do these kinds of things with the appropriate advance arrangements with their local or corporate offices..

Some of these, we found out that they only had permission to use certain storefronts only one day a week, or one day a month, and found out that they were in fact far exceeding their permissions.
Different managers, or unaware employees had let it slide, until we confronted the issue, and then we had many thrown out, removed, ejected, etc...

Some managers didnt even realize what they were doing there until we told them - and then they really got uncomfortable with the idea of any group using their storefront area or shopping center to promote discrimination, and then took action against the petitioners to have them move, or leave, or change their tactics to be much more low-key.

   
Stay open, Remain gentle. Be complimentary and even helpful. Give them love and respect right there on the spot, even if they don't give the same to you. People will see this and take notice of that even in heated public and unexpected debates. There were several people that did not end up signing after listening to me trying to convince these petitioners just how badly they themselves had been used and misled and were now in turn providing false, inaccurate, or incomplete information to the general voting public.  Showing them,  if possible,  that they in fact have no personal knowledge other than fear, bias, and common misperceptive stereotypes they themselves had been filled with their whole lives, or just recently by the others that hate and misunderstand us in general.

By just being the exact opposite of anything they had ever heard about someone "like me/us". Always conservatively well dressed, open, warm, articulate, intelligent, straightforward, comfortable in my own skin in ways they weren't used to from most people i guess, and willing to give respect even if i totally disagreed with them.

Ending debates by offering hugs and handshakes and totally old fashioned neighborliness - even apologizing to some if i felt i had maybe said anything to offend them in the heat of debate and engagement.

All the things they never expected, based on what they thought they already "knew" about all the  "confused, predatory, ridiculously dressed, and dangerously misguided" "people like "us"...

I gave them the simple things i really believe in the most in the first place, in the core of my heart, and it really showed a few times, once they actually talked to me for more than a minute past their own biases and singleminded lemming mentality. I tried to break that down as often as i possibly could.

Hope this helps a little. If i can think of anything else, i'll add it as soon as possible.

Lovingly always,

You totally rock, girl...

Happy hunting and best regards,

Sincerely,


Maryanne
Level the playing field
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hizmom

working my way thru the various boards
i am so pleased to have come across this
thread and in particular the post by Maryanne

it is not unlikely that the remaining 3 yrs
of my FTM son's public education will be
rife with situations and circumstances
that will require us to be advocates
and activists.... certainly there is a
wealth of information esp regarding
strategy that will serve as a template
for the attitude and demeanor we will
bring to the table during the course of
offering enlightenment to the public....

i appreciate the edification
even as i have butterfiles
in my stomach anticipating
the need to be forearmed
with diplomacy and accurate information....

thanks  :)
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Adrien

If there's anything I want in my remaining three years of high school, it's to educate the students and teachers of the pressing issues that all LGBTQQIA etc. etc. face [my goodness that is an ever growing acronym.]

That's why I have taken it as my duty this upcoming school year to at least educate them of the students and/or peers they have attending their school. I'll hold workshops and educate the teachers on how to deal with these situations.

Though it is a lot to take on, I feel with the support of my mother, and all of the staff from my summit this summer and the knowledge they have given me, I can at least start by making my small high school a safer place, and hopefully it can spread.

And if not safer, at least educated. Because God knows we need a few less ignorant people.

And thank you, Cindi, for not only declining, but for giving a reason as to why. Kudos to you!
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