(was Identity but we deviated to religion)

[Jessica]

To the credit of the true believers I think they'd just see themselves as evil rather than being twofaced, though I'd expect a good number to try and rationalize it so they aren't evil.

Not 'Evil' necessarily, just 'damned'

My wife is convinced that I am possessed by a demon, she has talked to her mother and her aunt and that is what they have concluded.  Her Aunt is a member of a Spiritual Healing Pentacostal Church and after the three of them discussing my feelings, they came to the conclusion that I have a demon in me.

I told her I would try ALL avenue's of approach.  I certainly did not see this reaction from her coming, but I suppose it helps her to have something to blame.  I went to her aunt's church at her my wife's request on Sunday and was prayed over by one of her aunt's friends.  Obvious to anyone that feels the same way I do, it was very unnerving, and of course, I don't feel at all different.  I was kind of hoping that God would say, okay enough is enough and I would burst into flames and come out of there the way I should have been born 30 years ago, but sadly, this has never happened despite all of my prayers and beliefs to the contrary in my younger years.  I think that would be the only way that my wife would accept this.

In remark to the feeling evil part.  It's not really 'evil' more like 'damned'  I am religious, in fact I am very religious.  I have a difficult time with churches because many of them twist the words of the bible into manipulative and coy tactics to gain money, but I am religious

You all may have a difficult time with the conclusion and so do I sometimes.  It goes something like this:

1. God is infallible, meaning he doesn't makes mistakes.
2. I was created as I am for a reason.
3. The only reason I would be created this way is to be 'tested' in some way.
4. A Christan places God's needs and wants above his or her own.  He or she must live according to the Bible.
5. This means that since God doesn't make mistakes, that I should put his plan ahead of mine.
6. I can't live like this anymore.  I am absolutely sure of this, it's a state of hopelessness that is causing me a lot of pain.  Who I am, my dreams, desires, feelings, my hope... it's ... I don't want to sound dramatic... but it's dying and being replaced with an 'live day by day and take a step closer to the grave' outlook.

Anyway, the logic involved.
In the bible (somewhere) it says if your hand causes you to sin, it's better to remove it.
Same with your eye.
(That part above is in the bible)
And if it's your soul?  I guess biblically, the only way for me to make things right with God is ... well you get the idea.

An Interesting aside.  Thou Shalt not Murder is explicitly stated that way, as Murder.  Killing is not wrong and God supported, through numerous examples Killing in Warfare, Killing for Food, etc.  Murder however is wrong, but it is, by definition, done to another person.  There are 4 commandments that deal with your relationship with God, and 6 that deal with your relationship to others. There are none that deal with your relationship to yourself.  NOWHERE in the bible, old or new testament, does it EVER say that the taking of your own life is wrong, in fact, Samson, after being caught by the Phillistines prayed to God to grant him the strength to take down the building on his own head and in doing so killed both himself and many of his enemies.  Since his prayer was granted, and knowing full well that the result of his prayer would cause his own death, he did it anyway and it was granted!  It is the mainstream catholic fallicy that all suicides go to hell.  This is not, and never has been, at all, in any way, shape or form, the viewpoint of the bible.  In short, there is no biblical evidence to support this Catholic view.  Unfortunately, this Catholic view has spread to many other Christian religions today.

The viewpoint I take is, this is a battle, without a doubt.  But it is a battle with all the lines blurred, and I am the only one fighting on the battlefield, so at the very least, I would be a casualty of a battle that I both won and lost.

I am going to talk to a Unitarian? Minister today after work, my Dad is insisting on it and I really need to find answers.  I am sure God has them for me somewhere, but I can't find them.  I have tried looking on my own for years.  I have read the New Testament cover to cover.  I haven't run across anything that says I am going to be spiritually okay because I can't ask forgiveness for who I am and really mean it.  I haven't ever been able to talk about this with anyone before until recently so I am going to take advantage of my newfound courage, most of which I attribute to this website and the wonderful, loving, and accepting people that are on here, and talk to a minister and see if there are any answers.

Anyway, as a Christian, I don't feel evil.  Just damned if I do, damned if I don't.
[edit](4years)Changed subject to be more descriptive; Of note this was part of the Identity thread, if you feel like you have came into the conversation mid way thought that is why, you have![/edit]

[Susan]

Not 'Evil' necessarily, just 'damned'

3. The only reason I would be created this way is to be 'tested' in some way.
4. A Christan places God's needs and wants above his or her own.  He or she must live according to the Bible.

John 3:16. How can you take a God who has shown love in the way that is repeatedly demonstrated in the bible and assume that God wants to torture you for some obscure plan. I clearly see God as being above the pettiness that you see in the bible which is much more reflective of man than god. Look at Job could any truly loving God do that to someone who adored God in deed and action? God making bets and dares with Satan? Come on. God wants one thing from mankind, Our love. God wants us to love our fellow man, God wants us to love God. However God loves us enough to allow us the free will to chose to love rather than being forced to pretend to love out of a fear of an eternity of damnation in the fires of hell. The bible is about control of man by man. God and Jesus is about so much more.

Live your life. Follow your heart, and the teachings of your faith. God isn't limited to a building or book.  Treat others in the way you wish to be treated by them.  Find ways to help others without the expectation of return.

I am gonna reveal this to give you an idea otherwise I would keep it secret. I am not wealthy however I have a fund. Not of stocks but of life. I give a local restaurant money to keep on account so that no one who goes in there hungry walks out that way even if they have no money.  You can recognize them a lot of times they go in and get coffee and nothing else. I was sitting there eating one day when the waitress asked an old man next to me if he wanted something to eat.  I heard him tell her that he could not afford to. The next day I started my fund. It's only been used 3-4 times but it has been used.

This is the essence of what being a Christian means. Look for God in yourself because God is a part of everything living or not. Find ways to help those who are in need of help. I see this website as one extension of that. However this isn't a Christian place just a human one.

[4years]

Personally I am spiritual, but not religious.

I find the idea of being possessed by a daemon quite quaint, but really people should grow up. In my opinion, any religion that says killing is all right, in any shape or form... Well, I suggest taking a very long hard look at the whole picture. For that matter, if the religion has some method of scaring you (sin, hell, etc.) into behaving (how they want), one should also look very closely. Personally I don't care what anyone else thinks, but I think it is a (painful) shame to live a life with a closed mind.

For what it is worth, my point of view is not that of a battle, rather one of exploration and discovery, contemplation and acceptance.

Question, why do you need forgiveness for who you are?
In my opinion no one in creation has a right to judge you and hence forgive you save one person. YOU.

If the answer is not found I suggest setting religion (not God, not what you believe, just what OTHER PEOPLE think you should believe) aside for a time. Perhaps you have out grown it.

[Jessica]

Okay.  I went to a Catholic School from 1st through 4th grade and remember my religion classes.  Many of my viewpoints on religion date back to that.  For instance, the reason for suffering.  It was brought up, and I remember this really well, why does God make bad things happen to people is I believe the EXACT way my friend Gabrielle phrased the question.  I think her cat had died and she wanted an answer as to why. 

The answer was presented as follows.  When you blow glass it stretches, conforms to your will, and makes some truely beautiful shapes and creations.  However, sometimes, the glass shatters when it is being cooled, or it does not make the proper shape that the Glass Blower wanted.

We are the shapes of glass and God is the Glass Blower.  Our trials in life, our victories, in fact, everything we do in life molds us into these beautiful and unique shapes.  Our conciensce helps us to know the shape we are supposed to take. However, not everyone makes it.  Just like not all pieces of glass make it.

For instance, you mentioned Job.  Yes, I believe God does love us, just as he loved Job, but without suffering and pain in our lives we would never be molded into the shapes / spirits that God wants us to be.

Had Job never been tested and overcome his trials, he would not have been the shape that God wanted to be.

I adopted an extension of this.  My mother used to say that God will never give us more than we can withstand.
Which means, some people are meant to be plates or glasses while others might be meant to be wonderous, incredible shapes that we can't even begin to imagine.  These mundane shapes are no more or less important to God than the beautiful shapes that some peoples lives forge them into being.  It all depends on the level of testing though.  Depending on how much our souls can withstand and how much we go through and overcome in our lives.  Everyone is tested to their ability and no more.  Some fail, and some succeed.

Yes, it is a very simplistic first grade explination for suffering, but I have yet to hear anything better.

That is why God tests us.

*edited to add the following*
I forgot to tie it back in to my original post. 
The reason I feel damned is that I don't feel that there is a way in which I am not going to 'shatter.'
I mean, I will never know unless I do something about it.
As it stands right now, if I continue on my path, there is no doubt about my shattering.
I have begun to turn from that path, however the path that now stands before me, I don't know if I will survive that either.
It leads me into a 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' feeling.


Jessica

[Susan]

Okay.  I went to a Catholic School from 1st through 4th grade and remember my religion classes.  Many of my viewpoints on religion date back to that.  For instance, the reason for suffering.  It was brought up, and I remember this really well, why does God make bad things happen to people is I believe the EXACT way my friend Gabrielle phrased the question.  I think her cat had died and she wanted an answer as to why. 

The answer was presented as follows.  When you blow glass it stretches, conforms to your will, and makes some truely beautiful shapes and creations.  However, sometimes, the glass shatters when it is being cooled, or it does not make the proper shape that the Glass Blower wanted.

We are the shapes of glass and God is the Glass Blower.  Our trials in life, our victories, in fact, everything we do in life molds us into these beautiful and unique shapes.  Our conciensce helps us to know the shape we are supposed to take. However, not everyone makes it.  Just like not all pieces of glass make it.

Exactly we are as god made us God didn't make us this way so that we would be forced to fight, to try, or to be something other than God made us to be. When you fight what you are then you have the pain, the glass shattering. Do you think that God was somehow incapable of forming exactly the shape desired when we were aimed at whatever the final goal.

For instance, you mentioned Job.  Yes, I believe God does love us, just as he loved Job, but without suffering and pain in our lives we would never be molded into the shapes / spirits that God wants us to be.

Had Job never been tested and overcome his trials, he would not have been the shape that God wanted to be.

Why would God need to test the creations. Are you saying that God lacks faith, that God is in some way unsure of the creation. That God does not trust in the very tools God made for whatever tasks God needed them for? That is a sign of a lack of faith in yourself. Something that a diety wouldn't have need of.

I adopted an extension of this.  My mother used to say that God will never give us more than we can withstand. Which means, some people are meant to be plates or glasses while others might be meant to be wonderous, incredible shapes that we can't even begin to imagine.  These mundane shapes are no more or less important to God than the beautiful shapes that some peoples lives forge them into being.  It all depends on the level of testing though.  Depending on how much our souls can withstand and how much we go through and overcome in our lives.  Everyone is tested to their ability and no more.  Some fail, and some succeed.

God sets the lives on the path we are responsible for the rest. We alone are responsible for the love or the hate we show our
fellow man. We alone are to answer the question when we reach our final destination; why. Why would God give one billionth of a second of a thought to the fact that we are what God intended us to be,  imperfect.

That is why God tests us.

God does not test us we test ourselves. Sadly most people fail that test.

[Jessica]

Why would God need to test the creations. Are you saying that God lacks faith, that God is in some way unsure of the creation.

Because, we have free will.  It is a test to see if we will do what is right.  Thats the hard part for me.  I know what is right for ME.  But, what I am having a rough time with is that according to the scriptures, I am going to hell, JUST FOR WANTING to be me.  It's confusing and it's hard to accept and it leads me into a damned if I do, damned if I don't.

That's why I am going to go home and call that Unitarian Minister that my Dad got me the number too.

Jessica

[4years]

I'm inclined to say suffering is not all bad (we learn and grow from it; usually), and that it is an integral part of life. But there is more than just what I experience for any event, of course. The kitten is still dead. (a life is worth more than a lesson.)

As far as free will goes, that is presuming we actually do and it's not all one big happy complex plan.

... I know what is right for ME.  But, what I am having a rough time with is that according to the scriptures, I am going to hell, JUST FOR WANTING to be me.  It's confusing and it's hard to accept and it leads me into a damned if I do, damned if I don't.

That's why I am going to go home and call that Unitarian Minister that my Dad got me the number too.

Jessica

I mentioned something about religions and punishment a bit ago:

... For that matter, if the religion has some method of scaring you (sin, hell, etc.) into behaving (how they want), one should also look very closely. ...

To be blunt; The religion seeks to control how you live. Does it have that right ?

Oh and if we are going to hell for being ourselves, well then, I'll be there LONG LONG before you and I'll have kicked the clutter out and setup some new drapes and the coffee will be on...

[beth]

But, what I am having a rough time with is that according to the scriptures, I am going to hell, JUST FOR WANTING to be me.  It's confusing and it's hard to accept and it leads me into a damned if I do, damned if I don't

There are problems with believing scriptures exactly as they are written. They were originally written by men, with all their prejudice and weekness affecting what they wrote, then translated many times by others who decided what they thought it meant. If god spoke to some of them he had to speak in ways that they had the capacity to understand, which didn't include modern biology, geology, psychology or medicine. The overwhelming theme I see in christianity is to love your brother, neighbor, enemy etc no matter what. The passages that are taught to justify our and many others distain are minute little words and a sentence or two. Some have taken these quotes written by mortal men and used them to deny a portion of society their right to exist. God never intended any such thing. Those that espose these words and follow these words have some "splainin" to do when they meet their maker (if that part of the scriptures is right)(and if any of it is true of course).

beth

[stephanie_craxford]

This is not mean't to offend but I have to be blunt as well.  Those who subscribe to a religeous belief and are having trouble rationalizing it with the fact that they are trans, should maybe consider that it's the religion that's wrong and not them.  I firmly believe that there is nothing wrong with me, and there is no one on the earth who can convince me otherwise.  You can quote as many scriptures as you like saying that they are the word of God of other diety, but the cold facts are that they were all translated, interpreted, writen, re-writen, composed, streamlined, spell checked, published, re-published, reseached, and what ever else, by MAN.  And we all know how infalible man is.

I firmly believe that we should treat each other as we would like to be treated ourselves.  And you don't have to be "christian" to believe that.  If I love you then love me back, if I respect you then respect me back, if I support you then support me back, but... if you don't, I'll still do those things for you, it's what it means when we speak of humanity.

And yes I already know that at the pearly gates I'll be asked to wait while they see if there is still room for me in hell, along with all the other trans people who have gone before me.  On the bright side though at least I'll be amongst friends...

[Susan]

Because, we have free will.  It is a test to see if we will do what is right.  Thats the hard part for me.  I know what is right for ME.  But, what I am having a rough time with is that according to the scriptures, I am going to hell, JUST FOR WANTING to be me.  It's confusing and it's hard to accept and it leads me into a damned if I do, damned if I don't.

You are echoing the constricting teachings of man rather than those of God. I know of only 11 laws god gave man. The first was do not eat from the Tree of Life, the other 10 were the 10 commandments. Anything else came from man and not God.  Look at what church teaches and what Jesus said. You will find two totally diametrically opposed worlds. They think they can pick and choose the verses needed to support whatever viewpoint they wish to impose on their congregations.

A good example of that is the Southern Baptist who religiously campaign against gambling as if it was the inscribed word of God. No where in the bible does it say "Thou shall not gamble" however they vehemently oppose gambling. It is because they fear that every dollar that goes to gambling is a one less dollar for them. There is a lot of gambling in the bible. Many majority Southern Baptist counties are "dry" because of their strong opposition to any alcohol consumption. Another prohibition which has no foundation in the bible. It also gives me a laugh because Jesus was known to drink wine he even was well known for turning water into wine and they don't see the contradiction in that. A good hunk of religion is about control of their congregations.

Most religions see God and the word of God  as set in stone. It's a living and changing thing the word of God. Those who think otherwise deceive themselves. I get such a laugh out of those people wanting to enforce the laws of Moses and the Jewish people on modern humanity. They would ignore 2,000 years of gods influence on man.

I also do not believe there is one single path to God no religion or group has it totally right. They are but a pale reflection of the truth. Don't artificially limit God and I am sure you will be surprised at just how far God will come to meet you halfway.

[Jessica]

Well, I talked to the Unitarian Minister and I feel a whole lot better.

He referred to those chapters in the bible which condemn us for who we are as the "Levitican Chapters'

Which also damn us for wearing Polyester Blends.
For Women EVER cutting their hair
For Eating Pork

And for a bazillion other really REALLY strange reasons, which, if true, there are probably like 2 other people in heaven and I would be awfully lonely up there *adjusts halo* *laughs* yeah... right 

He told me that if I couldn't be true to myself, how could I be true to other people? How could I be true to God?  Thats something I had not really considered before.

I feel a LOT better.  Mainly about the polyester blends thing... I mean... if I am going down for just being me, it's good to know that there are a hell of a lot of people out there who are going down because of what they wear! *laughs*

Jessica

[Jessica]

Very Long Post Ensuing.

The Empyrical Proof of an Intelligent Creator:
Speed of Light in a Vacuum (assuming no Resistance)
Avagadro Constant
Boltzmann Constant
Masss of an Electron at Rest (Regardless of the Atom Type, Constant)
Charge of an Electron (Regardless of the Atom Type, Constant)
Planck Constant
Gas Constant
Pi

Constant Laws:
Law of Thermodynamics
- Law one: Heat is Work; Work is Heat
- Law two: Heat will not transfer to something Hotter
The Law of Thermodynamic Equilibrium
The Law of Energy Conservation / Equillibrium

There are approximately 81 numbers found throughout mathematics (my Collegiate Minor), Physics (Taken a year of Physics in College), and Chemistry (I took an Honors Chemistry course in College).  These 81 numbers represent very exact constants within the Universe. 

For instance, previously listed was the exact resting weight of an electron.  If that number was even a MILLIONTH off of it's current value nothing would happen.  Atoms would destabilize because what keeps the electron in place is it's speed and weight providing an outword force and it's magnetic attraction providing an inward force that keeps it in a state of perfect harmonious balance.  Other atoms can interact with these outer electrons and form chemical bonds that are required by all living things.  If this ONE NUMBER was even a MILLIONTH off of it's current value the very atoms in the Universe would cease to function, they would not be stable.  This is ONE example of 81 such relationships found throughout nature.  You will also notice that the charge of an electron is also another such constant.  All of these 81 values are absolutely necessary for the function of the Universe.

We will look at some interesting Physics Calculations:
1. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed.  Meaning the sum total of all energy in the Universe RIGHT NOW is the same amount of energy in the universe at ANY given point in time in the past, or in the future. This is the basis for the 'Big Bang' theory which is scientifically sound.  However, what they do not tell you is the following:

The Big Bang would have had to explode in precisely the right way, at very exact conditions, which of course, it is impossible to reproduce with any of our scientific methods (incidentally, 2 of our precise numbers deal with this very issue, one of which is the current expansion rate of the Universe).  Either all the material from this 'super planet' would have dissentegrated, or it would not have been enough to fracture the planet completely and the gravitational pull of such a large body would have pulled all of the exploded material back into itself.

The Time Value:
There are significant groups of these numbers that had to come into existance at EXATLY the same time.  In short, you can't slowly develop the mass of the electron into something that 'works' over time.  Both the mass of the electron, the charge of the electron, and the speed of that electron must happen simultaneously, or you do not have an atom.  If ANY of these values were even the slightest bit off, we have no electrons and no electron bonding.  These characteristics had to occur at exactly the same moment and could not have occured over time.  Even given Millions and Millions of years, if any of these 81 numbers were even the slightest bit off, and groups of these numbers that relate to one another were not created simultaneously and instantly, we would not have a Universe to even be discussing these matters in.

The lowest common arguement that one can derive is the following:
There is significant empirical proof that the Universe was Designed.
Any Design has a Designer.
That Designer is more intelligent than we are.

This suggests 'a being' with a far more advanced intellect than we possess.
You will not find very many physicists or chemists at all that do not believe in 'Intelligent Design.'  There are some out there, simply because they look at it from the perspective of if it is at all possible for the Universe to come into existance without an intelligent design, then that is what happened. 

This is where they developed the infinite universe theories, in which there is a universe for every choice.  In other words, there are an infinite number of 'dead' universes in which these values are not what they are in our universe and it 'just so' happens that in our universe these values are corrent.  Please Note, this is MUCH DIFFERENT than the theory of other dimensions within our own universe (which by the way, a noted British Physician is on the verge of proving).

What this fails to take into account however, is the fact that groups of these numbers had to come into place SIMULTANEOUSLY, at a precise moment.

I guess I should say, that it is not 'blind' faith that leads me to believe in a Universal Creator.  It is empirically proven and statistically highly probably (on the order of 99.99999%) that the Universe was Intelligently designed.

From this, my FAITH tells me that this Universal Creator is the "God" from the Bible.

My religion is not blind, however, it is a personal choice of mine.

With Love,
Jessica

[Jessica]

Just Thoughts.

I don't know why but I really love discussing things here, usually things I keep fairly private.  Well, I guess I do know why, I have found kindred spirits which has never happened in my life.

Predestination.  I am sure you have all heard it.  It basically means that everything you do is already known and there are really no choices in life.  Yes, you make all of the choices however those choices are already known by 'The Creator' well in advance.  That is the core foundation for predestination.

DNA. aka 'The Code of Life'
A 4 Chemical (-A-denine, -G-uanine, -T-hyamine, -C-ytosine) Code within the Cell that provides the cell all of the information that the particular cell will need to perform it's function.

If you look at 'you' you will see a collection of cells.  All of these cells provide you will different functions.

The Body is truely a case of the sum is greater than all of the individual parts.

Is it possible, that the specific cells within our bodies, help to determine our course of actions?  Let me expound on this idea for a moment.

We all know that groups of cells have particular functions.  There is a group of cells in the brain designated for language and communication.  There is another group of cells in the brain designated for higher conciousness.  There is a group of cells collectively known as The Liver to help remove Toxins from the body.

Think outside the standard medical definition of the Body and attempt to envision the following:
All cells except nerve cells are 'support' cells.
The Body/Mind... 'us' ... is merely a way for those nerve cells to discuss things with other groups of cells.  I am a group of nerve cells that you know, collectively, as "Jessica"  My cells disucss things with one another, form ideas based on other data that has been received or based on their communication internally. 

We have all had thoughts 'pop' into our head or been thinking about a problem that we can't quit thinking about no matter how hard we try.  Our thoughts are products of our nerve cells communicating with one another.  These communications take into about our learning (Like a Big Data Store that all cells have access to), our Experiences (Another Big Data Store that all cells have access to), and our individual cells.

It's like... me... Jessica... I am a product of X Nerve Cell, Y Nerve Cell, Z Nerve Cell, on and on and on.  Individually nerve cells may or may not be 'concious' or 'aware' but millions and millions of them working from different 'data stores' can solve problems and 'think' which makes us.... simply the product of our collective nerve cells.

Now... each cell is programmed with DNA.  DNA is like a library with a 4 character alphabet.  It tells each cell how to reproduce, when to reproduce, and even to a certain degree, when to report for death!  Which begs the question, if DNA controls nerve cells, and all of our thoughts and behaviors are a product of our nerve cells, how directly does DNA control our actions and behaviors?

Could this be the meaning of predestination?  Our life, well and truely, is mapped out within the DNA structure of our cells?  If this is the case, our life can simply be read!  Remember, nerve cells are the only cells that are not replaced after death.

'The Creator' (as mentioned above) certainly knows his / her chemistry!  He or She in a very real sense created the rules by which it works.  If you believe, as I, in a creator, irregardless of "WHO" the creator may be or the method by which he or she brought us into being (Evolution or Creation, it doesn't matter) He or She at the very least created the universe, the laws under which the universe operated, and by extension, us because we are a part of that universe and operate within the same laws.

By extension of this, the creator simply knows, by virtue of the structure of our DNA, who we are, what we are going to do, and how we are going to go about solving our problems and reaching our conclusions.  Hence, if we are simply a product of the DNA as expressed by our nerve cells, and therefore our thoughts are derived via our nerve cells, then we are simply living out and expressing our DNA with everyone else!

This would prove predestination under the following conditions:
1. Our Nerve Cells (within our Brains) are responsible for our thoughts.
2. Our Nerve Cells are constrained by the DNA which is contained within the nerve cells.
3. The creator can decode our DNA.

Now, if each individual operated under those 3 guidelines, then predestination on an individual level is a given.  However, predestination on a world-wide scale is not possible.  DNA does not direct who you meet.  Those Data stores are dynamic.  They are dependent on who you meet, the information that you gather, your life experiences, and what you learn.  In other words... okay time for a virtual experiement.

Take two babies.
Put them in a room with no contact, feed them the same thing, let them listen to the radio, but the same station, at the same times of day, and they do not have any interaction.
Take those babies out when they are 18 (assuming they are not insane by then)

Talk to the two of them, or put them in different situtations.  They will be differences in the two by virtue of the fact that their are differences in their nerve cell DNA, even though they are drawing on identical data stores.  If we are in agreement as to that then without the data stores everyone is preprogrammed.

I forgot what I was trying to show.

Okay.  I swear I don't have ADHD!

I guess what I am trying to show is that to some extent we are predestined by virtue of our DNA.  However the data stores factor can not be eliminated in that there is some variance within our behavior as data stores are built. The way our data stores are built can not be forseen because they are a product of who we encounter, what we learn, and our experiences.  it is highly doubtful that who we will meet is genetically programmed within our DNA.  Unless those data stores can be read as well, however, since those data stores are built dynamically instead of statically (like our DNA) then it is impossible to predict future behaviors based on the state of the data stores (because they constantly change) and our DNA.  However, it could be possible to predict one portion of that (the DNA) because other than genetic variability among cells (breakage, etc) the DNA is static.

Well, this disproves this model for Predestination.

Oh well, proving something does not exists is just as good as proving it does I guess.  This is not to say predestination does not exist, it just does not exist under this paradigm of thought.  Does anyone have a paradigm of thought under which predestination does work?

I guess biology can continue with the Nature vs. Nurture arguement

Sincerely,
The collection of Nerve Cells known as Jessica

[4years]

A few thoughts:

Lets say DNA or *something* biological makes up who we are, or at least our manifestation here. This accounts for physical mental illnesses and other provable physical effects.

Now let us consider intelligent design being an initial directing force that explicitly specifies the bits and pieces (DNA, etc.) that make the physical body. In essence each body is made to order as desired. Or, perhaps only parts can be influenced.

A Fun thought along these lines is that if we suppose that spirit is composed of some form of energy and that the Body is a network of bioelectrical cells forming a faraday cage enclosing the spirit; Whom is in effect contained within the body for the duration of the bodies life. Or in essence a car is built and then we drive it about for a lifetime.

Another fun thought is that that like above we are separate from our bodies but are bodies are in fact alive and conscious but at a very base level (gut instinct and so on), this leads to a weird thought of instead of being a cooperative venture what we call ourselves is instead parasitical in nature and we inhabit bodies...

Whatever the factual case of the matter is I am fairly certain (with no proof) that there is a separation between the body and the self.

Anyway just a few coppers

[4years]

A few other thoughts:

• Be careful what you look for, you may find it.
• Just because the odds are stacked against an event does not mean it cannot happen.
• This is speculation but not without basis: Science does not know everything. Actually, that seems obvious doesn't it ?

*shrug*

They way I look at it is there might be or might not be anyone pulling the strings. I'm certain there are more things than science can dream of; there is a whole other layer to what is than has even been looked at. But lets say God(dess) exists, where should I look for her? If I look in the works of man I find folly. I look to the sky or a flower I see beauty. I look to my heart and I see so many things.
Walk whichever path you like, our destination is the same.

[Maura Hartman]

     Since I'm older than dirt, a non-church going Christian believer, married for 36 years and have been an out transsexual for many of those years may I add a few comments. It's human nature for us to try and justify who and what we are, the need to do it arises from the fact that most religions of the world come with the bludgeon of guilt attached. It's unfortunate, but one needs to consider that they were all instituted and administrated by men, who just love to control and lord it over others. All of the societies of this world are thusly influenced by the inherent good and evil that those religions impose.
      I believe that God has a sense of humor, considering all of the almost comical animals and humans that exist. God has given us free will and intelligence, and through it many fine doctors and surgeons have been able to improve the quality of life for mankind. According to the "good book" God does not meddle in the affairs of humankind, but has given us a special son, and expects us to consider who and what that son is to us and whether or not we wish to revere him. Other than that we are allowed to seek out our happiness in this life and expected to live it to the fullest as long as we do not harm or impinge the rights of other beings.

[Celia]

People who try to establish that God exists make substantially the same mistake as those who try to prove that God doesn't.  The question is of no more significance than that of whether God wears boxers or briefs.

-Celia

[Cassandra]

Jessica,

I would like to go back to your first post in this thread if I may. You referenced the passage in the bible regarding cutting off ones hands and such. I went to a private Lutheran school for 6 years. We studied the bible each day and by the end of the school year we had gone from Genesis to Revelation so I believe I am eminently qualified to comment on bible passages and there meaning.

The passage you reference is "If thy hand sin against thee cut it off. If thy eye offend thee pluck it out."  Note that the passage does not say sin against god or offend god it refers to things we do to ourselves. This can just as easily be interpreted to mean that if our bodies are wrong we are free to fix them.

Furthermore there are several passages which refer to eunichs( a mis translation from the original greek which specifically speaks to transgendered males). These references indicate that such as ourselves are blessed by god and special to him. Even Paul speaks of this.

For every interpretation of the bible you can find a religious scholar who can show you why this or that interpretaion is wrong. So it really all boils down to who do you want to believe?

If you read the books that did not make it into the bible you will find evidence that Jesus was quite the practical joker as a kid. One time he was on the roof of a building with a friend and walked off the building and stood around in mid air. He then invited the friend to do the same. Well if Jesus could do it so could he. The kid promptly became subject to the law of gravity. A much more compelling law than that of Moses. Of course we read later that he did the same thing to Peter with similar results.(The walking on water incident) Apparrently he was rather fond of this particular prank.

When referring to Levitican law or the laws of Moses it should also be noted that god had told the Israelites that he was going to set them apart from other nations he stated "I will make you a peculiar people..." The laws of Moses only apply to the jew not the gentile. Christ set into motion the way for the gentile to come to god and it is very different from the laws of Moses.

When people say the bible forbids homosexuality they qoute two passages. One from Leviticus, again this is Judaic law and only states that a man shall not lye with another man as he would with a woman. This refers to a specific act but does not actually forbid any other form of affection between two men. Also the passage continues that women should not have intercourse with animals. It does not however make any mention of other women.

Second they always refer to Sodom and Gomorra. Again the bible only states that they were sinful cities and offensive to god it does not really get into the specifics of the sin except to say they were lovers of themselves which could mean who knows what.

The other reference is a passage in one of the letters of Paul to, I believe it was the Thessolonians, Not sure on that. I have read the passage and the ones above it and those that follow. I really can't see were he is saying anything at all with regard to sexual orientation. All of this is supposed to be proof that homosexuality is a sin. But when you really read it it says no such thing.

When quoting scripture people will always quote it to support thier interpretion. One should not allow others to make you think you are damned or some kind of sinner for being who you are and trying to do something about it. They have no business judging. "Judge not leest ye be judged"

Just my two cents.

Cassie

[Lisbeth]

The only reason I would be created this way is to be 'tested' in some way.

I prefer Beverley Blount's take on it.  Somebody asked her if she had ever thought that God had made her that way to test her.  She answered, "No, God made me this way to test you."

[VeryGnawty]

Blount's hypothesis seems more likely to me.