Terms (WBW or GG) (from Self Protection)

[4years]

In the Self Protection thread we got off topic discussing the merits of the terms WBW and GG so the topic was split so we could continue both conversations clearly.

In that original thread Stephanie Craxford posed a question that started it all... well, this thread anyway

...
By the way Terri_Gene, what does "WBW" stand for 
...

An since this forum is being a pill trying to be smart (and failing) the next reply (my own) is inline. *grumble*

WBW = "Women Born Women", or something to that effect I presume.
I have been using GG or Genetic Girl for the same meaning but WBW has considerably more tact and is more accurate, I feel.

[edit]Split, Merge, Split, Merge, Split, Merge, Split, Merge, throw up hands in dismay, Split, Merge, Frown, EDIT.[/edit]

[stephanie_craxford]

Ah ha,

Another acronym for the list.  I used GG myself 

Chat later
Steph

[Terri-Gene]

WBW Steph?  Yes, 4years is right, Women Born Women, but it's a term along with a few others that we probably shouldn't use in a public sense, though I for one have gotten used to it and more automatically use it.  It seperates getnetics from WBM who were born Men.  Not really any different in a sense from GG, but it takes on deeper meanings and implies that if not born a woman, you never will be.  Even Posties can run into it, and if your Pre, it can be in some ways worse then out in the street playing with a crowd from the right.  Not nice when you have to fight on the inside as well as on the outside for a little space.  Hopefully the arguments occuring about this in relation to Womyns festivals and in Lesbian culture will clear a little space in the sun.

All I know is that when mainstream society won't claim you and there exists womens groups who won't claim  you, whats left in terms of a free and happy life?

Terri

[stephanie_craxford]

Thats a valid point Terri-Gene it makes sence. I think I'll start using that myself.  I agree that WBW would argue with us as being women, and by using the term GG, we imply that they are "real" women and we are not.

Chat later,
Steph

[4years]

I see it as a way to denote origins, not what is current.

[edit]Correction, we are no longer off thread [/edit]

[Leigh]

Obnoxious?  I heard a woman? explaing one time that GG stood for generic girl as if being whatever alphabet letters she identified as, was special.

I like the term natal woman.  Maybe I could be considered a post natal woman?

What do you think when the term GM is used? Gay male or genetic male?

[beth]

i have a hard time visualizing anyone being born a woman (ouchie for the mother ), female maybe but not a woman. but even that does not work as i was born female and i am female now. females born with the correct genitals and reproductive system is about right.

so it's FBWTCGRS i guess.......






beth

[Terri-Gene]

uhhhhhhh, i'd never remember that.  Is just one of the minor reasons it would be easier, if it was just "women" period.

Terri

[beth]

that's a great idea Terri!!!    









beth

[Terri-Gene]

 "that's a great idea"

Perhaps, but the truth is there has to be some differentiation, there is just a slight difference in a female and a pre-op.  They take care of that easily enough with "Female Identified".  gets away from the woman issue, but still points out a difference.  there's reasons for it, and I even totally agree with some of em, but it still don't digest well, you haul the load over the mountain so you can be included as Female Identified?

And it's all based on idealologies, which are about as easy to argue with as relidgeous ideas. but what the heck, it'll evolve ..... in time.

Terri

[stephanie_craxford]

Let's

And it's all based on idealologies, which are about as easy to argue with as relidgeous ideas. but what the heck, it'll evolve ..... in time.

All I can add to that is "Let's hope so"  While there are parts of me that still need to be corrected, I still consider myself a woman, after all it's what I think and feel that really counts.


^{(too bad I need proof of srs to get that male marker changed - but don't tell anyone)} 

[Terri-Gene]

 " still consider myself a woman, after all it's what I think and feel that really counts"

Correct to the extent that it goes, it's just agrivating that the str8 world of women can be so much easier to blend with then those who I find much more interesting, as people and as friends, but then I spend to much time in str8 surroundings, work and related activities and all that.

Terri

[wajdi]

Ahhh, would it be appropriate for me to say something like, "If she looks like a woman, acts like a woman and feels like a woman, then she IS by-the-Goddess a woman."?  Well, that's the way I feel about it, but I'm weird.

wajdi

[stephanie_craxford]

Ha, ha  not weird, just honest, and down to earth.

Steph

[Terri-Gene]

 "If she looks like a woman, acts like a woman and feels like a woman, then she IS by-the-Goddess a woman.?"

Actually Wajdi, there is a couple or few more things involved then appearance and behavior, but all things else being equal, then likely, yes.  It's a seperatist subject though.

Terri

[4years]

Technically probably the most correct term would be natal female, or NF as opposed to natal male of NM. (of course, internet slang kills the NM version..)

But again I see these terms as nothing more than a easy way to identify someone's physical sexual characteristics at birth. Not what they identify as, not what they behave like and not what they are accepted as.


But by and large I think it is just splitting hairs. As long as we can understand we are talking about, close enough!

[Terri-Gene]

 "I see these terms as nothing more than a easy way to identify someone's physical sexual characteristics at birth."

Actually that is the root of the argument in seperatist circles 4years.  The theory is, if you were born male, then you inherited male privialage and that privialage forever changed you, making you different from naturally born females who were raised without that privialage.

I happen to agree with that part of the argument. but not the place or the time.

Terri

[4years]

I agree with life experiences shaping us, and in that vein I am not the same, nor will I be, as if I were born a physical girl. But neither would I be the same person if my circumstances were different. To further expound the thought, neither would I be the same person if one single event had not happened.
However, I'm not sure I understand what "male privilege" is supposed to be.

[Terri-Gene]

"Male privialage" is a life condition based upon the birth right granted by tradition in most of the worlds cultures.  It allows access that is specifically denied women, even in todays world of the most advanced countries.

Even after having purged ones self of this privialage and not being able to directly access it, it is still perceived as having given advantage which is retained, be this true or false.

Especially in the case of older Transgenders, it is also perceived of having developed certain mind sets and expectations which are not compatible with womens point of view, again, true or false.

It's a complicated argument and quickly falls apart upon actual investigation, but like I said before, it is an idealology which by nature of things doesn't have to hold true in all cases, but is taken as "gospil" by some and because of thier ferver, affects the views and thinking of others.  It is a remnant of 70's feminist movements who blamed everything, even spilling their morning coffee , on the male patriarchy.  They see all the problems of the world wrapped up in male control and within some lesbian circles, this is extended to transgenders.  It's not right and it is being addressed from within.  Those of us affected must give it time, though it hurts.

Terri

[Alison]

I've been really seeking a term or something to describe myself... (a person born with female genetailia, and female psyche and having no desire to change that lol)

The only reason I'd ever seek to seperate myself from someone born with male genetailia and a female psyche is because, I have no idea what "its like" so to speak.... and sometimes I feel the need to just say.. basically ( oh yea btw take my advice with a grain of salt because I've never 'been there - done that' )

So you ladies tell me... what is least offensive?  I'm really nervous about stepping on toes and offending someone...