Gorean Philosophy

[Sarah]

So
John Frederick Lange, Jr., better known as John Norman,
is the author of the Gor series of books.

The Gor series has developed quite a following of people who agree with and practice the philosophy  contained within the books.
Amongst those is Honesty, Being True to yourself and others about who you really are, Honor, Respect, and Natural Order.

The natural order is interesting because Goreans (including a just as many women who agree with it) says that for a woman to be truly a woman, she must have felt the submission to a Man. I would extend this even to a Masculine person.

What say you to all of this?
There are quite a lot of educated, western women who believe in this and agree with it.

-Sara
Post Merge: February 26, 2009, 02:37:03 PM
a link to a good site about Gor and Goreans if anyone's interested...
http://www.geocities.com/Delphius2002/index.htm

[lisagurl]

There are quite a lot of educated, western women who believe in this and agree with it.

The key word here is "believe". Religions need to have believers. Philosophy is a description of beliefs and thoughts. Many people are trained in beliefs from an early age. It is difficult to readjust your mind from unfair discrimination.

[Sarah]

Lisagurl not everyone agrees with that definition of the use of the word belief.
Did you want to comment on the philposophy?

-Sara

[Pica Pica]

sounds like a heady mixture of banality and craziness, but I never heard of it till just this moment so i'm not much qualified to an informed opinion.

[Miniar]

I do not approve of the Gorean philosophy. What I have read of it, it seems way overboard sexist.

[Sarah]

The answers hinge upon the fact that male dominance, though very important, is not actually a basic precept of Gorean philosophy. It is actually a derivative of a more basic precept, one with no exceptions. This precept is the foundation of many aspects of Gorean philosophy and society. This precept is one of the clearest divisions between Earth and Gorean moralities. It is a precept that most people on Earth find repugnant. On Earth, this precept has led to genocide, war, tyranny, slavery and other horrors. The United States was founded to oppose such a precept.

This "terrible" precept is that "People are not Equal." A quote from the books helps to illustrate this point.

"The morality of Earth, from the Gorean point of view, is a morality which would be viewed as more appropriate to slaves than free men. It would be seen in terms of the envy and resentment of inferiors for their superiors. It lays great stress on equalities and being humble and being pleasant and avoiding friction and being ingratiating and small. It is a morality in the best interest of slaves, who would be only too eager to be regarded as the equals of others. We are all the same. That is the hope of slaves; that is what it is in their interest to convince others of. The Gorean morality on the other hand is more one of inequalities, based on the assumption that individuals are not the same, but quite different in many ways. It might be said to be, though this is oversimple, a morality of masters." (Marauders of Gor, p.

This precept recognizes that we are all individuals and that each individual is different from all others in a myriad of ways. Not all men are the same and not all women are the same either. People are judged on an individual basis according to their own skills, intelligence, flaws and such. Though Earth recognizes the importance of individuality, Earth still stresses the basic equality of all. Gor is more an elitist society where the most capable are considered better than those below them. Every person is still important but some are considered more important than others.

-From one of the essays (#34 regarding male dominance) on Luther's Gorean website

I think this is actually interesting, and I would agree with it somewhat.
The philosophy that all are equal, which countries like America were founded on is good in principle but it would seem a bit shortsighted.
I would suggest that a better philosophy is that "All deserve equal oppurtunity".

Simply put, I have met some people who swear up and down that anyone can do anything if they put their mind to it.
In my experience, this is simply not true.
My Love has knee problems, for instance: she is never going to be a triathelete.

And yet I've met people (and so has she, including some highschool gym teachers who swore she 'could' run as fast as the others if only she'd 'put her mind to it' and dispite a doctors order to the contrary) who swear up and down and refuse to believe that there are limits for anyone.

It's an interesting thing that Gorean Philosophy recognizes. It (gorean philosophy) treats people as an individual based on their individual needs, traits, merits, and ability, and would not be likely for instance to force a child to be what the parrents and teachers wanted them to be simply because they believed that "all are equal".

Goreans belive that all are not equal and thus individual and different.
Each has different needs, wants, skills, ways of learning, traits, behaviors, things they'd be good at, and things they would not be good at.

Goreans recognize this, and this aspect of their philosophy I am inclined to agree with.

-sara
Post Merge: February 26, 2009, 04:44:33 PM
An added thought,
I think the main concern is weather differences make one better than another.
I would argue that they do not,
However it is most definitely important to recognize that people are all one and all different.

[placeholdername]

It sounds like they're using a very good idea to justify/explain a poor one.  The first, that not everyone is 'equal' but rather 'individual' is very true and something I've thought about a lot.  But then to say that part of the 'individual not equal' can justify an idea that for a woman to be a woman she has to submit to a man, then robs the very basis of the argument out from under it.  If a woman is an individual and all that matters is her individuality, who is to say what does and does not make her a woman?

The trick here is the labeling of 'woman' and 'man'.  Remember, these are made up words we use to describe the ACTUAL world we see -- the words 'woman' and 'man' have no inherent meaning, they only have meaning in the context of the physical actual world.  Most people have either a penis or a vagina and most of the world says if you have a penis you're a man and if you have a vagina you're a woman.  But as the evidence shows, not everyone has a 'normal' penis/vagina, and not everyone with a penis identifies with the things associated with being a man and vice versa.

So to go back to the Gorean philosophy thing, yes everyone is individual, and so we should treat them as such, including letting them label themselves however they see fit (or not at all, which is probably a better idea).

[lisagurl]

she is never going to be a triathelete.

There are people with one leg who are triatheletes.

The answer is there is only one best triathelete.

It is what you believe. You use your abilities to do what you like best. No one is exactly equal. I am small in size and sports never made me happy. But I have been very successful in other things. I am a very poor writer but that does not stop me from posting. Hitler put blond hair blue eyes at the pinnacle of human form he believed it. Hitler also killed himself, beliefs make for bad actions. Only things based on empirical facts can be proved.

[Sarah]

Only things based on empirical facts can be proved.

That is a belief if ever I heard one.
*grins*
-sara

[VeryGnawty]

Only things based on empirical facts can be proved.

Fact:  "proven" is the correct conjugation in that sentence.

Fact:  "Proof" is a logical construct, not a statement of what is true.

[Natalie3174]

That is a belief if ever I heard one.
*grins*
-sara

Sounds like The Empire.

[Sarah]

Fact:  "proven" is the correct conjugation in that sentence.

Fact:  "Proof" is a logical construct, not a statement of what is true.

I wasn't debating the word "proved"
I was debating the statement
*grins*
-sara
Post Merge: March 01, 2009, 02:49:30 PM

It sounds like they're using a very good idea to justify/explain a poor one.  The first, that not everyone is 'equal' but rather 'individual' is very true and something I've thought about a lot.  But then to say that part of the 'individual not equal' can justify an idea that for a woman to be a woman she has to submit to a man, then robs the very basis of the argument out from under it.  If a woman is an individual and all that matters is her individuality, who is to say what does and does not make her a woman?

The trick here is the labeling of 'woman' and 'man'.  Remember, these are made up words we use to describe the ACTUAL world we see -- the words 'woman' and 'man' have no inherent meaning, they only have meaning in the context of the physical actual world.  Most people have either a penis or a vagina and most of the world says if you have a penis you're a man and if you have a vagina you're a woman.  But as the evidence shows, not everyone has a 'normal' penis/vagina, and not everyone with a penis identifies with the things associated with being a man and vice versa.

So to go back to the Gorean philosophy thing, yes everyone is individual, and so we should treat them as such, including letting them label themselves however they see fit (or not at all, which is probably a better idea).

See it's not black and white like that with them.
because of the individuality thing, they have many examples of women who are not such.
They view it as long as you are true to yourself and others then fine.
They believe it more as a generalization about women than an iron rule.
The do allow exceptions and fluidity.
-sara

[Natalie3174]

Your philosophy is interesting. But it is no match for the Power of the Dark Side.

[Serve With Passion]

OK..New to the forum..found it by typing transgender + gor into Google 

Short bio, I am in my 30s and in transition M2F, I am an avid user of Second Life and I am in a relationship with a Gorean Master..so I can shed some light here.

Most of what has been said above is correct, I would like to point out though that while Norman promotes the philosophy of being yourself, I have found strangely that being a female gorean slave has made my transition easier, easier to understand exactly what I am, what gender I am, well to celebrate my sexuality, to express it and revel in it. It has made me a better woman (well emerging) I practice in RL, things like gestures, body language, appearance, speech inflection, everything my therapist has recommended I have found easier to do than when I first attempted transition in 1999.

JN is right, but for one thing, if he would acknowledge that gender is in the mind then his philosophy would be almost perfect for me IMO (This is not intended to derail this thread, but as food for thought) I do however acknowledge that power exchange relationships are not for everyone.