Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Jungian Psychology (the anima/animus)

Started by PolskaPanda, March 12, 2009, 09:46:47 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PolskaPanda

I've been doing some reading into Jungian Psychology (because I intend to be a psychologist here after I get my degree) and what fascinates me is Jung's theory of the anima/animus archetype. I actually first got into Jungian Psychology by listening to Tool.

Anyways the theory of the anima/animus is this, the anima is the feminine aspect in males and the animus is the masculine aspect in females. We've developed our anima/animus over centuries of contact with the opposite sex.

So what interests me is, in studying the actions of men and women, ALL men and women have masculine and feminine aspects, even those who have repressed their anima/animus to an extreme degree.

I personally believe society has created gender, certainly men and women are biologically and hormonally different HOWEVER when you get right down to it, men and women only share subtle differences. Almost all of said difference comes from nature, not from the person themselves.

It's something to think on at least.


As an added bonus, that's Tool performing "Aenima"
  •  

mina.magpie

Keep in mind though, that though brilliant, Jung's theories are also still just theories - they might be correct in many instances or approximate reality well in others, but that doesn't necessarily mean they ARE reality.

You do make a point though that all humans have "male" and "female" aspects to their psyches, assuming one sees those as labels for what we generally associate with either - aggressive, protecting, individualistic for male and nurturing, pluralist, cooperative for female, but that doesn't mean that everybody has them in equal measure - androgynes might, but that is not necessarily going to be true of people who identify as one of those two.

The fact is that, in many ways, neurobiology and cognitive science is outpacing psychology nowadays, as more and more of what we used to regard as "ghost in the machine" type stuff is now being shown up as down to biology in some way. Male and female have very different brains, very different approaches to solving problems, but that's not a bad thing - the two approaches are complimentary and equal - it's only when one of them becomes dominant, as in our patriarchal society today, that things spin out of control. Of course, in that one also has to recognise that individuals are different, and just because a group of women are more likely to be nurturing than a group of men, that's not going to be true in comparing any two individuals from either group.

Which is not to say psychology doesn't have value - it's hugely valuable because our mind, though it arises from our biology also arises from our experiences, and more importantly from our consciousness. If we can understand which aspects are down to biology and which to experience, we can consciously change our minds.

But yeah, getting back to your post: I think that the anima/animus is a good approximation of reality, but as with everything else, we shouldn't fall into the trap of saying "most people have both so everybody must have both!" or arbitrarily saying that the two must be equal in the psyche. for some people that will be the case, for others not, and we need to respect the reality rather than imposing an ideology.

And I agree, Tool is awesome.  ;D

Mina.
  •  

Luc

I did an extensive report on this exact subject in my Psychology of Personality course my junior year of college. If you have any interest, I'd be glad to try to find it for you.

SD
"If you want to criticize my methods, fine. But you can keep your snide remarks to yourself, and while you're at it, stop criticizing my methods!"

Check out my blog at http://hormonaldivide.blogspot.com
  •  

mina.magpie

Quote from: Sebastien on March 14, 2009, 12:32:15 AM
I did an extensive report on this exact subject in my Psychology of Personality course my junior year of college. If you have any interest, I'd be glad to try to find it for you.

SD

Ooh! Ooh! I'd love to read that as well if you don't mind. Please.  :icon_bunch:

Mina.
  •  

Sandy

I contemplated that for a while also.

I agree that societal affectations of gender are arbitrary.  They have changed much over the centuries.  Mostly to reflect societal mores of the time and location.

However, they are rooted in a need to manifest the differences between male and female.  Perhaps because the natural differences are somewhat subtle, this need occurs.  Of course the *physical* differences are striking, the psychological differences are subtle.

This also feeds into the seeming inbuilt need for people to identify with groups that are similar to their own internal and external makeup.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: PolskaPanda on March 12, 2009, 09:46:47 PM
Anyways the theory of the anima/animus is this, the anima is the feminine aspect in males and the animus is the masculine aspect in females. We've developed our anima/animus over centuries of contact with the opposite sex.

So what interests me is, in studying the actions of men and women, ALL men and women have masculine and feminine aspects, even those who have repressed their anima/animus to an extreme degree.

Maybe androgynes are incapable of suppressing it.

There really are serious biological differences between males and females even though these differences may spill over now and then.  For instance, I read a few days ago that men and women have the same amount of some kind of dopamine (or endorphines) receptors in their brains, but the men use more of them than women do.  These receptors deliver chemicals that quell stress and do other things.  Women use half of them which is thought to make them more susceptible to depression or fear.

But I agree with the animus/anima stuff.  The collective unconscious wouldn't be affected by these bio things.
  •  

PolskaPanda

Quote from: Sebastien on March 14, 2009, 12:32:15 AM
I did an extensive report on this exact subject in my Psychology of Personality course my junior year of college. If you have any interest, I'd be glad to try to find it for you.

SD
I'd be very interested ^_^
  •  

Luc

Okay, I found the file, but I'm not really sure what the best way is to share it with people. I don't really want to paste it onto the forums, because there's a 3-pg paper plus 12 pages of article summaries that basically prove the validity through scientific study. Any ideas?

SD
"If you want to criticize my methods, fine. But you can keep your snide remarks to yourself, and while you're at it, stop criticizing my methods!"

Check out my blog at http://hormonaldivide.blogspot.com
  •  

mina.magpie

Quote from: Sebastien on March 14, 2009, 02:31:40 PM
Okay, I found the file, but I'm not really sure what the best way is to share it with people. I don't really want to paste it onto the forums, because there's a 3-pg paper plus 12 pages of article summaries that basically prove the validity through scientific study. Any ideas?

SD

Maybe we can just PM you our email addresses.

Mina.
  •  

imaz

Probably being a little stupid here but there's one thing about the anima/animus theory that eludes me...

Take the case of someone that transitions - MTF, has she always had an animus or did she once have an anima or was perhaps that anima in someway connected to her then "dysphoria"?

Tried asking this question to my best friend who is a highly qualified psychologist but she can't answer it.

Any thoughts?

BTW, many years ago I did three years of ultra expensive Jungian psychoanalysis back in Italy. Didn't get much out of it to be honest and felt it wasn't at all helpful regarding gender. Just my opinion which is probably wrong. :)
  •  

Luc

Imaz, Jung was far more about the androgynous qualities in all individuals than there being a surplus of anima in females or animus in males. He argued that, contrary to the beliefs of society in his day, men and women were not that different, after all. Every man had feminine elements, the anima, and every woman masculine, the animus. Perhaps he might have said that in an mtf, the anima overpowered the animus, and thus made the individual identify as female despite her physiology.

SD
"If you want to criticize my methods, fine. But you can keep your snide remarks to yourself, and while you're at it, stop criticizing my methods!"

Check out my blog at http://hormonaldivide.blogspot.com
  •  

mina.magpie

Quote from: Sebastien on March 15, 2009, 02:41:25 PMImaz, Jung was far more about the androgynous qualities in all individuals than there being a surplus of anima in females or animus in males. He argued that, contrary to the beliefs of society in his day, men and women were not that different, after all. Every man had feminine elements, the anima, and every woman masculine, the animus. Perhaps he might have said that in an mtf, the anima overpowered the animus, and thus made the individual identify as female despite her physiology.

He did actually say something along those lines, if I remember correctly. I remember reading that he treated a number of cross dressers while he practised - I think it was in "Memories, Dreams and Reflections", and he didn't differentiate between transsexual people and other cross-dressers, so I'm going to assume he would apply the theory equally to the former.

I dug a bit and found an article about the subject that summarises Jung's beliefs and approach to therapy:

Jung's Anima Theory and How it Relates to Crossdressing

Mina.
  •  

Constance

I'm a genderflux/androgyne.

I'd say that I'm protecting, but not agressive. I'm individualistic insofar as I'm an exreme introvert. I would say that I'm nurturing and cooperative. I don't think I have any of these in equal measure, but they are there.

The anima/animus is a good model, but it assumes and promotes the binary. So, to me, it's something interesting, but something to treat with skepticism.

imaz

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 15, 2009, 11:27:38 PM
I'm a genderflux/androgyne.

I'd say that I'm protecting, but not agressive. I'm individualistic insofar as I'm an exreme introvert. I would say that I'm nurturing and cooperative. I don't think I have any of these in equal measure, but they are there.

The anima/animus is a good model, but it assumes and promotes the binary. So, to me, it's something interesting, but something to treat with skepticism.

I agree, never did understand this model as anything other than binary.

When I was doing Jungian analysis my analyst kept telling me I was dominated by my anima. Used to dream about girls in a non sexual way... IMO he was way off the mark and the model is essentially flawed not taking into account TS people.
  •  

Constance

Quote from: mina.m>-bleeped-<ie link=topic=57279.msg360509#msg360509 date=1237176905
Jung's Anima Theory and How it Relates to Crossdressing
This article was quite interesting. It still seems to suggest (to me, at least) that Jungian philosophy here is binary in nature. Maybe I'm missing some key point here, or maybe this article just didn't cover it, but it didn't seem to do much to support a non-binary approach in Jungian thought.

mina.magpie

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 16, 2009, 11:19:28 AM
This article was quite interesting. It still seems to suggest (to me, at least) that Jungian philosophy here is binary in nature. Maybe I'm missing some key point here, or maybe this article just didn't cover it, but it didn't seem to do much to support a non-binary approach in Jungian thought.

Oh, very much so, I agree.

Mina.
  •  

Kaelin

Anima/animus are contructs based on theories, and fairly old ones at that.  Try not to lend too much authority to them.
  •  

Unconditional Acceptance

While reading this thread, I kept wondering about society's role in all this; how it defines what the genders of "male" and "female" entail, and the limits it places on each with regards to the expression of anima/animus traits.

I believe that each society has its own set of gender rules that are ingrained in us from an early age so that we are made to think that acting according to those rules is simply a natural thing. In our society, guys are told to be competitive, show off their physical strength, not show many emotions. Girls are told to be gentler, talk about our feelings openly, wear makeup, prepare for motherhood. Of course, these rules will change slightly or expand on a certain aspect as one crosses into different cultures. But they still remain and play a role in how we may express anima/animus traits.

When one reaches the point of recognizing society's hold on us in setting the ultimatum for how we should behave based on physical anatomy, I believe that that person could eventually break free of those restraints and examine their own wants/needs with regards to what gender they choose to be, rather than the one society labeled them with.
  •