Wealthy non-ops

[Shana A]

not to judge others, particularly those in our community

CUE: Buddy Holly singing That Will Be the Day.

[Miniar]

So, to be realistic and wanting food on the table more than a surgery is to kid oneself?
Surgery is scary, it's invasive, dangerous, painful, and insanely expensive.
And no, I don't think that contents of underpants is the definitive definition of male vs. female, because if it was then all Transsexuals are "just kidding themselves" when they use those terms to refer to themselves. If you "Need" a penis to be a man, then by that definition, I will never be one. Why? Because there's no surgery available to me that has a result "good enough" for me.

I am not qualified to diagnose GID, or tell who is or is not Transsexual, and with such limited information, no one is.

[she_male]

All this baloney about "I can't have GRS because - I'm poor, I have a medical condition, I have a family, I want and education, blah blah blah, is a bunch of nonsense.  Get real, if you are TS you will do it.

If you need to make excuses to validate who you are then who are not who you think you are.

Your privilege is showing.

[Steph]

But they ain't gonna pass your 'locker room' test.

I used the example for those people who say they are women and want to keep their male genitals.  There is a difference, I'm sure that many if not most, maybe even all FtM would want to have a penis, as much as I wanted to get rid of mine.

-={LR}=-

[tekla]

I want and education

Of course if you had bothered to get one, you might have known enough to write "get an education" not "get and education."

[Steph]

Your privilege is showing.

You're assuming I'm privileged in some way?  You know nothing of my life, maybe I should describe my poor miserable unfortunate circumstances, but I'm sure that would be boring.

-={LR}=-

[tekla]

maybe I should describe my poor miserable unfortunate circumstances

Oh swell, and I'll break out the tiny violin quartet to play 'My Bleeding Heart."

[Steph]

I want and education

Of course if you had bothered to get one, you might have known enough to write "get an education" not "get and education."

Sorry for that tekla, I didn't graduate high school, but I'm sure that folks understood what I meant.  Damn I knew sacrificing my education would catch up with me sooner or later.  Sucks to be me I guess, but I'm incredibly happy.

-={LR}=-

[she_male]

Well, you could've fooled me, saying >-bleeped-< like "money shouldn't be an issue for you or you're not really trans."

That aside, maybe not everyone's identity and self-esteem revolves around what's between their legs.  People are more than just their reproductive organs, you know.

[Steph]

maybe I should describe my poor miserable unfortunate circumstances

Oh swell, and I'll break out the tiny violin quartet to play 'My Bleeding Heart."

Give me a break tekla, sob stories and more sob stories, boo hoo for me.  I'm sure that mine would need a full orchestra.  But then "My Bleeding Heart." performed by a violin quartet (That's 4 violins, right?) would sound quite nice.

-={LR}=-
Post Merge: May 23, 2009, 12:38:18 PM

Well, you could've fooled me, saying >-bleeped-< like "money shouldn't be an issue for you or you're not really trans."

That aside, maybe not everyone's identity and self-esteem revolves around what's between their legs.  People are more than just their reproductive organs, you know.

I agree, the point made was that those wealthy ones who "Choose" to keep theirs and proclaim they are TS.

-={LR}=-

[Miniar]

That aside, maybe not everyone's identity and self-esteem revolves around what's between their legs.  People are more than just their reproductive organs, you know.

QFT.

[tekla]

I can, and have, seen cases where its just not that important.  Either way they have no intention of using that stuff - yes, there are people who are non-sexual, or asexual - so why spend the money and take the risk?

As I've said before, GID runs on a scale, much like cancer.  You might have something that only requires a little scrape in the office, or you might have the kind where you should be planning your funeral.  But, its all cancer.

[DarkLady]

Your body may cause anxiety and feel very unnatural to you. You may want to feel your body is right and some social situons may be very problematic in case you present other sex and have genitalia of other sex. There could be reasons that transsexual does not go to genital surgery but most transsexuals would go in case they could that is the part of defination of transsexual.

[Julie Marie]

It's getting a bit tense here...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean it's time to focus on grammar or get offended.

If you are trying to define what is TS and what isn't because you need that as a barometer to help you define yourself, I understand that.  But to pass judgment on someone you don't even know because they don't fit your definition is the same as the mainstream passing judgment on us.  "When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself." (Wayne Dyer)

You'd think we'd spend more time supporting one another rather than tearing one another apart.  After all, there's a great big world out there more than willing to beat on any one of us at the drop of a hat.

Julie

[Mister]

But they ain't gonna pass your 'locker room' test.

Not your perception of FTMs, no.  Funny, I read this right before I was going to create a post about passing naked.

[Lisa Harney]

The OP suggested that these folks didn't want or didn't intend to have grs.  There is a difference between not wanting and not able to have grs.  And for those who think that genitals don't not make you an man or a woman, I would challenge you to stand naked in a changing room of those who you identify with and ask them what they think.  Oh yes I forgot "It's not what others think, it's what I think", ya right.  Stop kidding yourselves, if you want to keep your male organs then you are obviously not TS, you are something else.

I question the invocation of transphobic social standards as evidence that genitals define your gender.

That is, what you're saying is that who any trans person is and how they live their life is automatically negated by cis people who, historically, do not respect trans people or our lives, who characterize transition as frivolous, freakish, delusional, and so on. Who, if they saw a trans woman who'd had surgery, would probably just assume she's cis because that's how cissexism works, and if they actually knew that said trans person was trans, would still deny that her womanhood is valid.

[ArleneTgirl]

My last comment, if you're not TS without the surgery (incidentally, I will be having GCS), then having surgery will change one magically into the "other gender".  Glad I found that out.

[fae_reborn]

I can, and have, seen cases where its just not that important.  Either way they have no intention of using that stuff - yes, there are people who are non-sexual, or asexual - so why spend the money and take the risk?

Yes, there are people who would rather spend the money on other things, like an education, a home, supporting a family, donating that money to a worthy cause, etc.  Surgery for a MtF is highly invasive, painful, takes a long time to heal from, and the results are not always guaranteed.  Some people are simply not willing to take that risk, and to say that they are not TS or TG, that they are just crossdressers or men, makes you no different than cisgendered people who want to tear us down.

We shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves, the battle for gender equality is out there!  Arguing about definitions does nothing to further our movement to bring our community into the fold of acceptance among the general population.  If we argue among ourselves about these petty and trivial definitions (or what have you), then how can we convince the cisgendered population that we are human beings deserving of rights - just as they are?

[Steph]

I question the invocation of transphobic social standards as evidence that genitals define your gender.

That is, what you're saying is that who any trans person is and how they live their life is automatically negated by cis people who, historically, do not respect trans people or our lives, who characterize transition as frivolous, freakish, delusional, and so on. Who, if they saw a trans woman who'd had surgery, would probably just assume she's cis because that's how cissexism works, and if they actually knew that said trans person was trans, would still deny that her womanhood is valid.

There a quite a few minorities in this world who enjoy the same human rights as everyone else.  That doesn't mean that they are accepted, heck there are celebrities out there who were going great guns until some realized they were black.

Now I'm speaking personally here but it has been my experience that even when my past was revealed I was still accepted and treated just like everyone else and that includes the washroom and the change room, well maybe not by everyone, but a majority.

Hey, like it or not society in general defines gender by genitals and I can't see where TS's would not agree to some degree, however, I can understand where the other members of the TG community would strongly disagree.

-={LR}=-

[Lisa Harney]

By and large, trans people don't enjoy the same human rights as everyone else, and whether or not someone's had surgery can be and is used against them to deny services or other needs. I don't see the point of other trans people enforcing this dynamic.

I think that trans people are ourselves pretty definitive evidence that genitals don't define gender. That simply having a penis requires you to be a man and having a vulva requires you to be a woman - that is, that cis assumption that you can look at someone's genitals and know whether that person is a boy or a girl is what is used against trans people - and that we have to break out of that in order to start transition in the first place.

Surgery is not the point where your gender is defined. Your gender was always your gender. Surgery doesn't change it. It never has.

The idea that genitals define gender is a transphobic, oppressive standard that hurts trans and intersex people.

While you have personally met a majority of people who accept you because you've had surgery, this still reinforces the transphobic notion that surgery is required to have a legitimate gender identity.

Also, appealing to society's standards is still wrong because society at large is structured primarily by people who aren't trans, many of whom would probably rather that trans people didn't exist at all.