Abortion. Pro Life or Pro Choice TS Men and Woman only please.

[Tammy Hope]

Both, and neither.

As for the official political positions, I can't stand completely with either one.

Neither "protected from conception" or "anything goes" makes any sense.

So I can't just pick a side.

First, there's a lot of mythology out there - like the idea that all the "unwanted" kids in the system is an argument against adoption as an option - the truth is that if you get rid of the bureaucratic red tape and expense and complication, there are enough parents and more for the kids in the system. In fact - there are plenty who specifically want a kid with special needs. And pointing to the older kids in the system who are hard to place says nothing one way or the other about infants who would otherwise have been aborted.

Likewise, all the real results in stem cell research have come from adult stem cells, not that harvested from abortions.

In any case, when you strip away all the misinformation from both sides I think that something like this makes sense:

First, short of saving the life of the mother, or saving her from permanent physical disability, no abortion should ever be preformed after the child has measurable brain waves (that's about 8-10 weeks depending on who you ask).

The way I see it, apply the same measure to the begining of life as you do to the end. If there's enough brain activity that we won't "pull the plug" on a person in a hospital, then the same amount of brain activity would enjoy legal protection in the womb.

By the way, women who have this sort of medical necessity make up something like 1% of all abortions.

Doing that still leaves a window of opportunity for the mother to make a decision when she finds out she's pregnant.

Ideally, most of those would be handled by morning after pills. I'd still be troubled that a small percentage of women would use this avenue as birth control - perhaps there should be some legal requirement attached to having one that tried to be sure that said women were on BC thereafter.

But still, that to me seems like at least a reasonable foundation that can be agreed on - pro-choice people still have a window for choice, and pro-life people know that at least no child is aware and suffering through a killing.

[K8]

In a discussion of the balance of rights between a potential human and an actual human, I tend to favor the actual human.  I think that abortion should remain a safe and legal option, especially in cases of rape and major health problems.

But IMHO if we put as much effort into caring for born babies as we do worrying about unborn babies, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion.  I believe that if we had good sex education, readily available birth control, adequate pre-natal and well-baby care, solid parenting support, affordable daycare, and good early-childhood education we would see the abortion rate plummet.

- Kate

[myles]

But IMHO if we put as much effort into caring for born babies as we do worrying about unborn babies, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion.  I believe that if we had good sex education, readily available birth control, adequate pre-natal and well-baby care, solid parenting support, affordable daycare, and good early-childhood education we would see the abortion rate plummet.

- Kate

I agree with this completely!

[The None Blonde]

First, there's a lot of mythology out there - like the idea that all the "unwanted" kids in the system is an argument against adoption as an option - the truth is that if you get rid of the bureaucratic red tape and expense and complication, there are enough parents and more for the kids in the system. In fact - there are plenty who specifically want a kid with special needs. And pointing to the older kids in the system who are hard to place says nothing one way or the other about infants who would otherwise have been aborted.

Likewise, all the real results in stem cell research have come from adult stem cells, not that harvested from abortions.

Well no... theres not likely to ever be less red tape... its peoples lives we're talking about... There are too many unloved children, abused and downright hurt by the system and in it... if you don't see that, you're quite nieve, would it be better if they weren't born? Do we have that many options? I'm not saying aborition can fix that, but it would reduce the numbers entering.

Mm, some stem cell research is done using foetal cells...

[Tammy Hope]

In a discussion of the balance of rights between a potential human and an actual human, I tend to favor the actual human.  I think that abortion should remain a safe and legal option, especially in cases of rape and major health problems.

But IMHO if we put as much effort into caring for born babies as we do worrying about unborn babies, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion.  I believe that if we had good sex education, readily available birth control, adequate pre-natal and well-baby care, solid parenting support, affordable daycare, and good early-childhood education we would see the abortion rate plummet.

- Kate

you clearly have a higher opinion of your fellow human than most of them/s have earned.

that's like saying if we had better schools all kids would get a great education.

the simple fact is, there's always going to be a precentage of the population which is uneducated...
or dishonest...
or poor...
or unethical...

or whatever.

and MOST abortions are preformed on people for whom all the good intentions you just listed wouldn't have any effect at all.

Not that yours isn't a wonderful sentiment - all such programs are always very well intentioned...but people are not perfectable and the things a society wishes it could change are usually the things most unchangeable.

Yes, I'm a cynic.

[myles]

Wlile this would not "save" everyone I think it could help the process and some. I have worked in places where I have come to the complete understanding that not everyone wants to be helped or saved but there are some that do and can move on with their lives.  Lowering the percentage of the population is a place to start.
Andrew Myles

[Alyssa M.]

I'm 100% pro-life and 100% pro-choice.

I don't accept abortion as an acceptable outcome in almost any circumstance, even rape. Rather, we ought to support pregnant women and provice lots of options for support in pre-natal care, raising children, adoption, etc.

But I also don't think it's acceptable to push that view down anyone's throat. It's a totally personal decision. I don't think that it's tantamount to murder: when someone is murdered, it deeply affects all of society, but with an abortion, it's no different than if the fetus had never been conceived. Perhaps there's a fuzzy line on that distinction, but drawing that line at birth seems totally reasonable to me.

So I oppose all abortions, and support full and unabridged rights and access to abortion.

[placeholdername]

I don't think there's a simple answer to it.  Sometimes it's the right choice, and sometimes it's a choice that I think I would disagree with.  But what I do know is that I don't really know when it IS the right choice and when it ISN'T.  I don't think anyone else knows either.  But what do I know.

[Tammy Hope]

Well no... theres not likely to ever be less red tape... its peoples lives we're talking about... There are too many unloved children, abused and downright hurt by the system and in it... if you don't see that, you're quite nieve, would it be better if they weren't born? Do we have that many options? I'm not saying aborition can fix that, but it would reduce the numbers entering.

I'm positive many are hurt by the "system" but it's the system I'm saying needs fixed.

If the health care system were crippling kids, we wouldn't suggest the kids would be better off dead, we'd fix the system.

Mm, some stem cell research is done using foetal cells...

Absolutely. I didn't say "research" - i said "results"

Fetal stem cell research, so far, has been almost entirely chasing rainbows...adult stem cells have produced real results in several different ways.

[Nero]

Re: Abortion. Pro Life or Pro Choice TS Men and Woman only please.

I do see it as a feminist issue. Control over women's bodies and sexuality has historically been the basis of sexism.

[placeholdername]

Fetal stem cell research, so far, has been almost entirely chasing rainbows...adult stem cells have produced real results in several different ways.

Where do you get that from?  Because I haven't seen conclusive results that either one is better.  There's a whole lot of misinformation floating around about both of those methods.

[The None Blonde]

I'm positive many are hurt by the "system" but it's the system I'm saying needs fixed.

If the health care system were crippling kids, we wouldn't suggest the kids would be better off dead, we'd fix the system.

Absolutely. I didn't say "research" - i said "results"

Fetal stem cell research, so far, has been almost entirely chasing rainbows...adult stem cells have produced real results in several different ways.

Difference is, theres a very real solution to not needing the system as much as we do... abortion can stop the system from being so overcrowded, and allow recources to work. Yes, its cruel bean counting. But it will benefit everyone

Researchwise... no, not really, theres only results from adult stemcell tests because so many rules and contraversies surround foeteal cell research. There is plenty of merit waiting to be unlocked, we just cant.


Overall, I think its a womans own choice what to do with her body. Its our body, we decide how we use it, and what we do. We have the right to govorn our own functions. If they suggested regulating the amount of times a man could ejaculate without inseminating a woman because its 'killing' genetic material. There would be outcry....  Though I can't quite see the 'freedom to masturbate' posters... or dont want to.

[Tammy Hope]

Where do you get that from?  Because I haven't seen conclusive results that either one is better.  There's a whole lot of misinformation floating around about both of those methods.

I don't keep an archive but every so often a story comes out about results having been achieved in various ways. I've really tuned out the political debates so much in the last couple of years that all of that is reduced to vague memories. but I recall that the reports at the time were credible sources, not worldnetdaily or some such.

Post Merge: December 13, 2009, 03:11:48 AM

theres only results from adult stemcell tests because so many rules and contraversies surround foeteal cell research.

what other major nation in the world restricts ESC research besides the U.S.?

Surely we are not to assume that if they U.S. doesn't do it good results won't happen?

in fact, many of the breakthroughs i recall in ASC research came from other nations than the U.S.

Furthermore, the only restrictions in the U.S. are (or were) restrictions on Federal funding. Several states offer state funding and there are not a few sources of private funding for solid research, even in the U.S.

Taken on a worldwide basis, the lack of U.S. Federal funding for eight years was a marginal impact in terms of opportunity for breakthroughs.

that's not to say i oppose Federal funding for ESC research on ethical grounds. As long as they use the "overage" embryos from fertility clinics, I'd be ok with it...but I prefer funding go where the results are just under the heading of efficient government.

[Luc]

The only situation in which I think abortion is even slightly permissible is if a woman is raped. Otherwise, hello! birth control. It's simple to get (every low-income clinic, school clinic, and Planned Parenthood has free condoms) and easy to use. Anyone who doesn't use birth control and gets pregnant deserves to have to deal with nine months of pregnancy. At the end of it, there are tons of families who want kids but can't have them.

SD

[Jay]

pro choice as long as someone is not using it as means of birth control, as in has had 3 already.

Exactly

Jay

[LivingInGrey]

... I can't say I'm either way.

What I will say is... I think sex should be licensed !

Stupid people shouldn't breed.

I'm also a fan of "older" parenting. Someone 18 years old (or for gods sake younger) shouldn't be able to breed.

Slightly off topic...

Why is it in the U.S.A. a woman on WIC (http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/) (comes from tax payers $, my money) can go and get all the stuff she needs to care for a baby, just so she can afford 100 lbs if dog food. Saw that in front of me at a Wal-Mart on Friday and it pissed me off.

If you're going to have the child, then don't go begging for assistance just so you can be comfortable in a lifestyle you obviously can't afford.

/end rant.

[Miniar]

One thing that irks me is...

I have these friends. A couple who're madly in love, and married.
And they do not want to have children, at all, ever.
But! Since neither of them are over 30 they aren't ALLOWED to have either a vasectomy nor her tubes tied.

This means they've got to rely on birth-control that not only isn't 100% safe, but also, the cost of using birth control over the years will be more than if they'd pay for the surgery out of pocket.

And yet, they are denied the right to have that surgery, cause "they might change their minds"....

Anyone wanna tell me that these two, responsible, intelligent adults, should be forced to go through pregnancy, completely against their will. that they do everything they can to avoid while having a "normal", healthy marriage, should the three levels of birth-control, they currently use, fail them?

[LivingInGrey]

I've been trying to get fixed since I was 18 years old.

I keep on getting told 'you're too young'

I've been told that for 12 years now.

Every year on my birthday I call and ask if I can schedule an appointment.

[Nero]

One thing that irks me is...

I have these friends. A couple who're madly in love, and married.
And they do not want to have children, at all, ever.
But! Since neither of them are over 30 they aren't ALLOWED to have either a vasectomy nor her tubes tied.

This means they've got to rely on birth-control that not only isn't 100% safe, but also, the cost of using birth control over the years will be more than if they'd pay for the surgery out of pocket.

And yet, they are denied the right to have that surgery, cause "they might change their minds"....

Anyone wanna tell me that these two, responsible, intelligent adults, should be forced to go through pregnancy, completely against their will. that they do everything they can to avoid while having a "normal", healthy marriage, should the three levels of birth-control, they currently use, fail them?

Good point. And birth control is hardly infallible. Condoms are a joke, honestly. Yes, they're the best we can do, but anyone who uses them regularly will tell you that they break, slip off, come out of the package defective, etc. And some guys simply don't fit condoms. It's true. There's a certain percentage of guys who are simply too large, small, or wide to fit a condom for the duration of sexual activity. Birth control pills also can fail. Not to mention the effects of using them on the female body. Women should not be penalized for being sexual, especially if the preventive measures they take fail them.

[LordKAT]

Medicare will pay for tubal ligation or vasectomy if you are 25 or more and have 2 children or more. I agree that not allowing you to have it done is wrong but it is like the hoops we go through to make sure we aren't making a mistake. I think if you change your mind later, you deal with it since you are only dealing with the consequences of your actions. These surgeries are considered permanent but can sometimes be reversed.