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Justify Atheism

Started by Seras, June 06, 2010, 07:55:21 AM

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Seras

I was just wondering how you guys justify your belief in the non-existence of God.

You know holding a belief that God does not exist is just as unjustifiable as holding the belief that God does exist. The fact of the matter here is that we can honestly know nothing on the subject. God should he exist, is not a perceptible being, we can have no experience of him. This is not only a problem for believers but for non-believers as well. For most people this seems to only be an argument against God, "how can you believe in God if you never see him!?" however you are not meant to experience him. That you do not experience God is no argument against it, if he did exist you would not experience him anyway!

As Hume argued we cannot make any meaningful arguments without empirical experiences to guide us. To express anything meaningful we must have a clear and distinct idea of it. Such conceptions of God are impossible, you cannot say anything meaningful on this subject either in favour or against religion.

Hume's conclusion at the end of  An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding:
Quote

    When we run over libraries, persuaded of these principles, what havoc must we make? If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion

I dislike atheism as it is just as dogmatic in its view that God certainly does not exist as religion is in blindly asserting the existence of God. The true scientific and philosophical opinion on this ought be agnosticism. The acceptance that we simply cannot know, a blind faith in the non-existence of God is in my opinion just as damaging a view as a blind faith in his existence.

So how do you justify yourselves non-believers  ;D
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Nathan.

First - Atheism is not a belief it is a lack of belief.

I lack a belief in god(s) as there is no evidence to suggest there is one.

Atheism has no set of rules or beliefs, it is not dogmatic.
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Seras

You are asserting in being an atheist that God does not exist.
Which implies that you believe that God does not exist.

Or are you telling me that you will claim that God does not exist in your claim that your an atheist, but that you do not believe it  ???
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Nathan.

I'm not saying god doesn't exist, I am saying I don't believe in god(s). There is a difference.

I personally am an agnostic atheist, but i'm only agnostic towards god as I am to lepricons.
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Seras

Nice save :D
So technically your agnostic like me, I am just very much on the fence whereas you think he is a leprachaun. However you ought not claim your an atheist unless you actively disbelieve in God.
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Nathan.

I lack a belief in god(s), i'm just not stupid enough to claim that I am 100% sure.
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Seras

Yep but some people do. Also many many people will claim to be atheist when as it turns out on reflection they are not, such as yourself.
I am just trying to highlight this, because I enjoy it.

A lot of people are far to willing to substitute one belief for another equally wrong one.
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Nathan.

I am atheist, i'm an agnostic atheist. I've already had this debate you can be both.
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Seras

Yea I know. Thats why I said "Nice save" like 2 posts ago. Due to that being the best get out clause to legitimately retain the atheist title, even if it is qualified by that of agnosticism.



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Nathan.

Quote from: Seras on June 06, 2010, 08:25:36 AM
Yea I know.

Then why did you say that I was not?

Quote from: Seras on June 06, 2010, 08:19:59 AM
Also many many people will claim to be atheist when as it turns out on reflection they are not, such as yourself.
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Seras

Because agnostic atheist =/= atheist.
Just as:
Strong atheism =/= Weak atheism.

You gotta be careful with such terms. Especially when the topic in question has been created by a soon to be philosophy graduate  :)
However perhaps I should also, maybe I should have specified my problem was with "stong atheism" but I thought that was implicit in my original post.
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Nathan.

Agnostic atheists are atheists because they lack a belief in god (a- without, theist-god). They are agnostic because they believe we can't have absolute knowledge.
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Seras

Indeed.
But I am challenging atheists proper, the strong view.

QuoteI was just wondering how you guys justify your belief in the non-existence of God.

See.
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Pica Pica

Where there is god there are people - without the people god doesn't seem to make much sense - if god only makes sense through people then presumably god is a result of how people can think.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Miniar

I'm not an "atheist" per say, but someone who doesn't believe in the existence of an all powerful creator god in any way.

I find the question "how do you justify" to be a bit offensive actually. No one needs to "justify" their beliefs nor lack of beliefs. That's the beauty of the freedom of religion.
We are free to believe what we believe, no justification really needed.
So the better question is simply "why?"
"Why are you atheist?"

Since the question often really means "Why don't you believe in my god?" or "Why do you believe my god does not exist?" I'm interested in replying.

And then I bump into this problem.
"unjustifiable"
Well, there's a bit of a problem with this. Similar to the one before. I don't think you're using the "right" word.
What would probably be a better word is "unprovable".

Right, with those complaints out of the way.

I find the idea of a single creator god, responsible for all existence, to be a bit of a cop out.
See, when I was a child, I was raised in "Christianity light", you know what I mean. The bible existed in the house but wasn't read. God was presented as a benevolent protector and creator of mankind. Sunday-School never mentioned hell, and taught the many tales that were supposed to show how good and generous god was.
And I, as a child, found myself with questions.

I think the first thing that made me go "wait, what?" was a short song.
I don't know if it exists in English, but the lyric in Icelandic tells the story of two men. One was stupid and built his house on sand, the other was smart and built his house on a mountain. A flood came and wiped out the house on the sand but spared the house on the mountain.
They told us that the song was about how faith in god would keep us safe. That the mountain was faith.
And I remember semi-obsessing over this song.
I realized I didn't have "faith". I didn't walk around in this certainty that something other, greater than me, existed. I didn't even trust that something other, greater than me, existed.
I had been told that this powerful thing had personally created me and all things, and that he personally was watching over me and all things, and I had been told that I needed to have faith in this as truth to be safe from a metaphorical flood.

I found myself wondering. If yhvh made the stupid man stupid, and loved the stupid man as he loved all men, then why would he blame the man for being "stupid" and wipe his house off the sand?

This was my first serious question, and no man has ever provided any good answer to it. The only answer I've gotten is the equivalent to "God works in mysterious ways"...

See, here's why the "all powerful creator god" is a copout to me.
Everything that happens "god did it this way".
We find evidence that it happened in another way, then "god did it anyway".
God is good and loving and benevolent but bad things happen, then it's all a part of "god's plan". God's plan doesn't make sense, then "you can't understand god", "god works in mysterious ways", etc.

There's no rhyme nor reason provided.
Belief in an all powerful god seems to depend on the idea that you can't understand an all powerful god, so everything you know doesn't matter, cause god's "greater" than that.
And you know what,... I don't buy it.

It just doesn't have any logic behind it.

If there is an all powerful god who wants to be believed in, then why would he create doubt and disbelief?
If he doesn't want us to believe in him really, then why does it matter that I don't?
How can a person believe in an all powerful, all knowing god, and at the same time, believe in free will?

Anyway.

While my existence is an Operating Assumption* to me and little else, I still prefer, under that assumption, to refer to logic and reason.
I like evidence.
I like peer reviewed research.
I like things I can rely on.

I base my beliefs and opinions on as much logic and reason and Evidence as I can.
Evidence being the key word.

There's zero evidence that there's an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent deity, so, I don't have any reason to believe one exists. Thus, I don't have belief in his existence.

I am not "agnostic" per say. I don't stand here going "I don't know whether there is a god", even though I don't know. I'm not on any proverbial fence.
I sit here and go "You know what, there's no evidence that this thing exists, talk to me when there is".

And yet, I'm not an atheist.
Why? Because I make the conscious choice not to be.
I make the conscious choice to work under the operating assumption that the gods I personally prefer have some sway over my life. I don't know if they exist, and I have no "faith". I have an operating assumption.


(*Operating Assumption; Operating as if the Assumption that X is correct.)



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Dana Lane

Quote from: Seras on June 06, 2010, 08:02:11 AM
You are asserting in being an atheist that God does not exist.
Which implies that you believe that God does not exist.

Or are you telling me that you will claim that God does not exist in your claim that your an atheist, but that you do not believe it  ???

Why is it on the backs of those who know there isn't a god to show proof? There isn't a tooth fairy either but I am not going to prove that to you.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
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uni

Quote from: Dana Lane on June 06, 2010, 09:20:58 AM
Why is it on the backs of those who know there isn't a god to show proof? There isn't a tooth fairy either but I am not going to prove that to you.
Because an atheists main objection to god believers is, "you can't prove there's a god". In reality, most theists don't base their belief off any scientific proof, that would defeat the whole purpose of faith.
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Seras

It is on the back of anyone who makes any claim to show it to be true.

As an atheist your making the claim "God does not exist".
There is the same onus here as claiming "God does exist".

Thanks for the interesting replies I will look them over later when I got some spare time :)

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spacial

For some atheists, the notion of
Quote from: Dana Lane on June 06, 2010, 09:20:58 AM
Why is it on the backs of those who know there isn't a god to show proof? There isn't a tooth fairy either but I am not going to prove that to you.

Principally, because those people who make such an issue of atheism are propounding a belief. Someone mentioned Hume, who, as so often, makes a reasoned point.

Someone who thinks of any deity in the same way as most think of the tooth fairy spend practically no time at all. I've known atheists who have attended church services for funerals and such. They show absolute respect for the customs and traditions. They behave in a way that is appropriate to the situation. I once asked someone why and he replied because it is good manners. I only knew he held no beliefs when I asked him once. He certainly didn't make any sort of issue or try to justify himself. Any more than I would if asked if I believed in the tooth fairy.

I personally have attended Islamic weddings. I have also attended some Hindu celebrations. Like that man, I attempted to show respect.

That is a tad different from those who wander around waving their atheist flags as if their are occupying a corner of the intelligentsia.

If someone doesn't hold beliefs, then those beliefs are of no importance to them.

But, it seems, many atheists do hold very strong beliefs. Moreover, beliefs that are both Proselytizing and confrontational

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uni

Also, acknowledging that you do not believe something means that you hold a belief. Atheism is a belief even if it's simply stated. As what spacial explaine more in depth. Semantics can distort this fact.
Quote from: Seras on June 06, 2010, 10:17:47 AM
It is on the back of anyone who makes any claim to show it to be true.

As an atheist your making the claim "God does not exist".
There is the same onus here as claiming "God does exist"
Atheists do not accept anything but science as proof of the existence of god. So when a theist claims "God exists!" merely having faith is sufficient evidence and they do not need to defend themselves further, nor should they have to. The athiesm vs. god argument is invalid in my opinion because each side is basing their arguments on two seperate and different definitions from the start. (Their own)
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