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Angst about passing

Started by marissak, December 27, 2010, 03:35:41 AM

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MillieB

Quote from: TinFoilIdiot on January 19, 2011, 09:32:04 PM
Im 5'6" maybe 7" and if I see a guy walking towards me who is taller than me or a girl i guess it intimidates me and makes me feel less of myself. Also when Im walking with my brother who is 5'11 i feel small, because i think if i had been born male i wouldve been as tall if not taller than him so that drags me down a bit.

Do you think Im short for a guy? Tom Cruise is only a couple of inches taller than me and he wears heels n stuff which makes me feel crap about this.

Well I've spent most of my adult life as a male who is exactly the same height as you and yes you feel like a bit of a shortarse at times but mostly I haven't even thought about it.

I have read that Tom Cruise is anywhere between 5'4 - 5'10 so the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. ;)
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Rock_chick

Tom cruise is actually 1' tall, the entity we know as tom cruise is actually a highly realistic mecha suit that the real tom cruise lives in and controls. I believe it was built for him by the scientologists so he could go forth and spread the message of scientology (what ever the hell that is). Why do you think his acting is so wooden.
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MillieB

Be careful Helena! You don't want the Scientologists on your ass!! :o

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JS

Quote from: Helena on January 22, 2011, 11:22:34 AM
Tom cruise is actually 1' tall, the entity we know as tom cruise is actually a highly realistic mecha suit that the real tom cruise lives in and controls. I believe it was built for him by the scientologists so he could go forth and spread the message of scientology (what ever the hell that is). Why do you think his acting is so wooden.

I wouldn't be so sure about 'highly realistic'.

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Stephanie

Height plays an important part in being accepted as the sex you are presenting, if you can master female body language and walk then being in the height range 5'4" - 5'9" will greatly help getting you accepted.   On the other hand, being within this height range won't help you at all if you don't know how to walk, gesture, sit, stand-up in a feminine manner, and do this consistently and without too much conscious thought.   Some people will want to argue that I am buying into stereotypes and that not every woman is feminine in manner.   This last part is true, but as we have to try and overcome things that undermine our ability to pass.  I think that it is better to be thought as a perhaps overly feminine girl/woman than risk being 'read' on a regular basis.    Genetic males/females can afford to occasionally express feminine/masculine behaviours merely because they are genetic males/females.  We on the other hand can't. 
I have been watching how teenage boys and smallish men move, walk, and express themselves.    Many if not all would not pass as a girl or woman even dressed up and wearing a wig.   Their gestures are wrong, the body-language wrong and their walk is also wrong, so being within the perceived height range of natal females clearly isn't enough.    I find this very comforting.    There is a world of difference between the way boys/men and girls/women walk.    Females do walk slower than males and they also have a shorter stride.  Women even walking fast still take short strides, short rapid strides is how they manage to walk fast, they don't lengthen their stride and march like men do.   I'll give you an example of this.  When I was at university it took me 25 minutes to walk to the station to get the train into the city.   My sister walks to the station and it takes her 45 minutes.   You can do a lot to help improve your passing by walking at a pace that feels too slow to you and consciously taking smaller strides - try imaging that you are wearing a tight skirt.   Getting your walk right is essential, walking in a male manner will completely undermine everything else.   Perhaps this is the reason very passable - in appearance -  transsexuals get spotted?    They post saying 'I just don't understand it at all.  I am 5'6" 100lb with shoulder-length hair and all my girlfriends say that I completely pass, yet I am regularly read as male!   I just don't get why I am read so often?'   The vast majority of people never give how they walk a second's thought.  Of course we are more conscious of such things, but even so it is possible to forget and slip into old male habits without noticing.   Oh the terrible flaming hoops that we must jump through to be seen and accepted by others as female/male!  :'(

I saw an Australian documentary a few years ago about the South Seas cultural phenomenon of the fa'fafine(sp?).  I loved that documentary.  It showed big burly Samoans wearing make-up and dresses often very feminine dresses going about their business in the streets with nobody giving them a second thought.  Nobody pointed, s>-bleeped-<ed, or was confrontational.   They were cheerfully addressed as 'Miss' by everyone without the slightest hint of condescension.  One father told how his son came out as a fa'fafinine ' at 17 he just started wearing his (local costume) like a woman.'   The acceptance was amazing, the father was neither angry, disappointed, or offended.  There was no dragging her off to see doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, endocrinologists.  Neither parent angrily denounced the other 'you mollycoddled him and you turned him into this!'
Freud wrote in 'Civilisation and its Discontents' that modern, industrial societyhas to suppress the instincts and individualism to a very large degree for it's very survival.   Our 9-5 Monday to Friday existence would collapse overnight if people were allowed full reign to their instincts and individuality.    Civilisation makes a 'devil's pact' with its members.   This pact is 'suppress your instincts etc, submit daily to external commands that often suit others but not you.  In return for this largely colourless, sterile existence we will guarantee you food and shelter.'    Too many individuals and our comfortable but lifeless world would collapse.  Most people. weakened physically and psychologically by modern life realise that they couldn't cope with a free, colourful life, where there were NO guarantees. so life goes on as it does.   Although our civilisation guarantees that no one shall starve to death or die of exposure from lack of shelter, this doesn't mean that everyone eats good nourishing food and lives in accommodation that feeds the human spirit.  Think of all those people eating junk food, stodgy carbohydrates, and huge amounts of sugar because they earn minimum wage?   Think of those people living in 'hoods, projects etc.    The way to avoid all this is through obtaining a good (read high paying) job.  This is why fathers and parents in general of mtf's get very worried and upset about us.   A father shouts 'if you transition you'll never get a decent job with longterm prospects.  You'll be stuck in dead-end shop or factory work.'   I am in two minds about this argument.  Lynn Conway has a website where she highlights transwomen 'success stories' so some of us are doing well for ourselves.   However, if you read the biographies of these women you will notice that the majority of them are either self-employed or they are academics.  Owning your own company and being a professor does count as success, but not all of us can do these things.   I could go back and do a post=graduate degree but the fees are very high.  I wouldn't get a loan as I have no credit history and I am very loathed to ask my mother to dip into her savings.  My mother fears that I will end up working in some soulless , dead-end job earning pennies and she fears for my future.   I fear being stuck as a man and being treated like a man.  My mother's perhaps accurate fears for my future, combined my fear of being a man the rest of my life explains why I have consciously decided to think of myself as a teenage girl, and to quietly live as one.   I get to escape having to hold down a job that combines the stress of a neurosurgeon with the pay scale of a video store clerk.    I get fed clothed and housed just because I exist,(not exactly true as I am in charge of all the housework) and I don't have to hide who and what I am from an employer or my fellow employees for fear of scaring the horses.    I am lucky that my mother has a very well paid(long hours, lots of stress) job and she can afford to indulge me.    I am learning programming and studying to be a Linux system administrator so I am trying to beat the odds of ending up in a low paid, deeply uninteresting job.  I would rather live with my mother and be a comfortable child for the rest of my life, than live a solitary stressed and penny pinching existence.  Or to earn a comfortable salary but live as a man.  I have heard that the computer world is trans-friendly and quite well paid so I am aiming to get into that.  I am a geek girl and I know it.  :D

Oh why can't we be as decent and as humane as the people of the South Pacific?


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CaitJ

Quote from: Stephanie on January 22, 2011, 05:47:02 PM
Oh why can't we be as decent and as humane as the people of the South Pacific?

I live in the South Pacific. It not as rosy as you're painting it to be. While there is a certain amount of acceptance for Fa'afafine, they are still an opressed group and often thought of as prostitutes, liars and theives.

And btw:

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Stephanie

I know that I write too much but I am having trouble finding my voice here at Susan's.   At other forums I spend my time talking about kittens clothes, etc.  I am open, and spontaneous.  Here, however I can't seem to stop writing first-draft mini essays.  Very strange.

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MeghanAndrews

Hi Marissa and peeps!
I think what you are asking is something a lot of people wonder about, especially as they begin feeling their way around the world after coming out to themselves. If your goal is to be seen as the gender you identify with no matter where you are and who you are with, I think it's natural to question things like height and presentation because you are in a place where you are questioning EVERYTHING. I honestly don't know how important height is but I do know a 6'4" transwoman who seems to pass; it doesn't have anything to do with her height, she has pretty much everything else about her presentation in order. Her body shape and mannerisms and voice, etc, etc. are important.

Think of passing (I know some people hate that word but that's what you used so I'm using it (and I do use it, often, I don't have a problem with the word) as an unconscious checklist that the people that see you subconsciously process in about 1.5 - 2 seconds. There are probably 50 things on that checklist. Think about it. You see someone walking like 50 feet coming toward you. If all you see is height, that's one small part of what you see. "Oh, 6'4", but wait, girl clothes, girl walk, long hair, stride, purse, shoes, oh wow, she's coming closer, she's pretty. She's a tall girl but yeah, she's definitely female. That's a cute, tall girl." People process information super quick. If you focus on making as many non-verbal ques work in your favor I think you'll see that height is much less of an issue than you think it is.

By the same token, if you take someone who is 5'5", MTF, and the same thing happens. They are walking toward you it wouldn't be height that you see first. It might be "girl clothes, purse, short, whoa, wait, she's walking kinda dude-like in those heels. Wait, they are coming closer to me. Is that a guy or a girl? Hmmm." That whole subconscious process happens so fast that people generally make up their minds quickly.

Here's the thing though Marissa, what you are talking about and thinking is something I think most of us go through. I think you'll get to this point where you just see yourself as you and you don't worry as much about every little thing, you know? I don't really believe in like blind confidence for myself, although if people can do that I say more power to them. The idea is that you are being true to yourself, putting thought and care into how you present (meaning what you look like when you walk out of the house, what other people are seeing) and if you feel like you aren't where you want to be, make plans to change it. Don't let height stop you from being you. You sound much too awesome to do that :) Meghan
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MillieB

Who do you think would have a better chance of passing

A young RuPaul 6'4"?

Danny DeVito 5' 0"?

:P
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MeghanAndrews

Quote from: MillieB on January 23, 2011, 11:36:19 AM
Who do you think would have a better chance of passing

A young RuPaul 6'4"?

Danny DeVito 5' 0"?
:P

Exactly, Millie :)
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Stephanie

I was watching a triple bill of Friends tonight, and I noticed that Jennifer Aniston was using a lot of facial expressions, gestures, hand-gestures and body language to indicate her character's feelings, attitude, wishes etc.  Aniston's character Rachel Green was always the most feminine in terms of body language of the three female characters on Friends.  She went from ditsy, materialistic 'Daddy's-girl' in the earlier series to an admittedly still quite flighty, but career-minded woman in the later series.    Aniston in both cases would have given a great deal of thought as how the 'Daddy's-girl' expressed herself, and then later on how to convince the audience that she was a less girlish, career orientated woman.   A lot of this characterisation was done through facial expressions, stances, body-language, and gestures.
Watching Aniston act got me thinking.   As I have mentioned in a previous post (see above) in order to greatly increase your chances of passing you must master the appropriate gestures, body language until it becomes almost second nature.  I say 'almost' second nature because if you are not out and living full-time you will want to switch off opposite sex behaviours when in drab/drag.    Sitting and watching every woman will only confuse and depress you as women of different ages and social backgrounds do express these things in their attitude, and manner etc.  I recommend thinking of the man/woman you want to be in the way an actor prepares for a role.  For example say that you are 21 ,white, middle-class, educated and your greatest wish is to be taken for a young genetic woman, then you should study young women within the age range 18-25 and forget about the rest.   Just spend the coming weeks and months watching this group very closely, notice how they sit/stand when wearing a skirt/dress and when wearing trousers.  How do the women in your target group walk/talk/gesture?   How do they touch their hair, and how often?   Notice also the fashions and hairstyles in your target group as it will undermine your passing if you are seen to be dressed too young or too old.    Books, magazines, television shows, even members of your family are all valuable sources of information and should be used.
Once you have started to see behaviour and body language etc patterns in your target group then you should practice them at home.  At first you will feel that your gestures are painfully stiff and contrived and more likely to draw attention to you than away from you.  However, don't let yourself be dismayed and disheartened, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice and practice.  Soon what looked unconvincing will become natural even your preferred way of doing something.  Soon you will be able to integrate a whole series of movements without giving any of them a second thought.    Don't forget that unlike an actor you are preparing for the rest of your life.  Building a solid foundation now will help you when you start getting into your 30s etc.  Your feminine/masculine body language should - if you have really worked at it - be as near as instinctive as possible so that you will find it very easy to adapt to the body language, gestures etc of a 30 something woman/man.
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TinFoilIdiot

Quote from: Helena on January 22, 2011, 11:22:34 AM
Tom cruise is actually 1' tall, the entity we know as tom cruise is actually a highly realistic mecha suit that the real tom cruise lives in and controls. I believe it was built for him by the scientologists so he could go forth and spread the message of scientology (what ever the hell that is). Why do you think his acting is so wooden.

Whenever I feel crap about my height Im going to remember this and smile HA

Cheers for that  ;D
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Sage

Quote from: CaitJ on January 11, 2011, 01:58:33 PM
If anyone looks at you funny for waiting for a stall, say you need to poop. Real bad. That there's a turtle's head rearing out your backside and you need. to. poop.
Problem solved  :)

Sorry, but this made me laugh sooo hard.   :laugh:

And I'm VERY self-conscious about passing, because I'm 5'3".  I am short even for a girl, and when I'm trying to pass, I worry if people are gonna think, "Nah, that kid's way too short to be a dude.  Got to just be a butch lesbian or something."   :( 

Not to mention when I talk in my "male" voice I sound like a fourteen-year-old boy at best.   :-\  Tomorrow I'm actually going to school to visit some friends, and I'll be dressed as "Sage," my male self.  I guess this will be me coming out to some of them.   :(  I'm worried, to be honest. 
"Be whoever you are, but be loud. Be completely fearless when you do it. That's the big thing. Just be a fearless person. A fearless artist, a fearless accountant. Whatever you want to be." - Gerard Way, My Chemical Romance

私は死にかむ。
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