My two questions to christians

[katia]

Let me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas.

Atheism is not a belief system. 
Cindi

according th margaret atwood, atheism is not only a belief system but a religion. >

[kaelin]

It depends on your definition of religion.  www.dictionary.com primarily defines it as so...

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

Atheism and non-theistic agnosticism do not attribute anything to superhuman entities and thus by this standard do not meet the definition of "religion."  They also notably lack the secondary characteristics typical of religions (rituals, moral code).  The alternative definitions provide little to suggest anything beyond a weak fit.

Atheism does seem to constitute a belief system, but it's nothing gooier than that.

[AnnieE]

Let me take for example the atheist belief if I may. For an atheist who does not believe in life after death the focus then becomes living on earth. An atheist should display a strong sense of urgency in teaching their ways because time is an essential issue. We can see this in Jean Paul Sarte an atheistic existentialist who would teach about atheist existentialism in public areas.

Atheism is not a belief system. 
Cindi

according th margaret atwood, atheism is not only a belief system but a religion. >

Anyone who believes Atheism to be a religion is purely ignorant to a provable and easily accessable fact that Atheism is not a religion. Same for Evolution, even though creationist propaganda will get hard core Christian sheep into believing it is.

[Robyn]

I recommend a read of Christ's newest book, called A Course in Miracles, which was 'channeled' by an atheist Jewish Psychologist about 30 years ago.  (Why not?  The New Testament gospels weren't written by the people for whom they were named - Matthew, John, Luke, Mark.  This latest isn't named for Helen.)

Anyway, there is no hell.

Our only function in this illusion of reality is forgiveness. 

"I am not a body; I am free,  I am still as God created me."  (An eternal spirit seeking a human experience.)

Robyn

[tinkerbell]

"I am not a body; I am free,  I am still as God created me."  (An eternal spirit seeking a human experience.)

Robyn

Brilliant!

tinkerbell

P.S.  Well, and what about Madalyn Murray O'Hair?  didn't she believe that atheism was some kind of religion as well or am I mistaken?

[VeryGnawty]

Our only function in this illusion of reality is forgiveness.

I would dispute that, actually.  I think acceptance is a much higher state of spiritual awareness than forgiveness.  Because when you accept everything, there is no longer anything to forgive.

I'm talking about unconditional love.

[manybees]

I'm totally blown away here.  I just joined this forum a couple of days ago hoping to find some support and commonality with some sisters that know my struggles. In fact this will be my first post and maybe my last.  What I have found here is some real hate and intolerance. The same things that we scream so loud about when they are directed at us. Nikki, you have obviously got some unresolved issues.  Do you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho.

[katia]

I'm totally blown away here.  I just joined this forum a couple of days ago hoping to find some support and commonality with some sisters that know my struggles. In fact this will be my first post and maybe my last.  What I have found here is some real hate and intolerance. The same things that we scream so loud about when they are directed at us. Nikki, you have obviously got some unresolved issues.  Do you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho.

hate and intolerance? just because i'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm [hateful or intolerant]. for me it wasn't really a matter of choice. i was overwhelmed by the evidence that my religious beliefs were based in outright [falsehood] at worst and [baseless assertion] at best.
but i can tell you what has changed in my life as a result. the many hours a week i was [serving the church] now go into making a difference in my community. and the money i once gave to [build churches] and pay staff now pays for treatment of children with cancer, and after school programs, and safe homes for battered women and kids and a college education for an orphan. the hours i spent [studying myths] and fantasy and debating over minutiae of religious dogma and notions of apocalypse and the god's will now go into relationships and making a difference and [not] screening my friends based on religion has sure enriched my life.
my growth, joy and maturity [were stunted] by christianity. in other words, all the time, treasure and thought i put into a [lie] and a [fraud] is now put into enjoying life and enjoying people and trying to make something of this life and this world because there won't be another. i [no longer have to struggle] with the concept of a god of torture who demands flattery and who gives eternal agony for temporal errors. i no longer have to struggle with a god whose ego is more fragile than my own, who is jealous, vengeful, petty and whose best offer to his children's an eternity of kissing his butt and telling him [how pretty] he is.
but at its [essence], i left the church because the claims were either probably false or unprobable, and the notion of a god that gives us a brain and tells us not to use it, a god who [embodies] some of our [own worst traits], just made [no sense]. any one can change their life with any religion. moslems and jews and buddhists would all say their religion changed their lives. but for me, religion had to be more than a lifestyle that changed how i felt and what i did. it also had to be objectively true and it simply is not.  sorry if this post offends you but it's just how it is and how i feel.  and no, i haven't found hatred or intolerance here and you won't either if you decide to stay.

[Kimberly]

Hello Teresa,

As you know we are humans first, transgendered second and as such are as varied as any other hum, special interest group I suppose.

The point being please don't let a few odd views scare you off from this place. Susan's is a place worth at least lurking at, I think.

Welcome to you...

[VeryGnawty]

Everyone is walking their own path in life.

Don't hate them for it.  Respect them for it.

[Susan]

Do you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho.

Yes I do, I know them by their acts and the acts I see have driven me away from organized Christianity. I still believe in and talk with God, I follow the teachings of Jesus, but I don't follow what most people see as "Christianity" today. I doubt Jesus himself would recognize it if he came back today.

There is no hate in me for Christians, only pity that they can't see the road he so clearly pointed out to humanity during his life. I hope they can grow spiritually enough to see the truth Jesus came here to teach, that the church later lost in it's efforts to control man rather than enlighten him. I explain what I see as my path to God, it's not the same for everyone.  People make their own choices.

The creed is explained rather well by my bot in the chat.....

Basically Susan's policy is this. "You talk to god your way and we will talk to god our way. In the end god will decide who was right and wrong."

I think God gives everyone a path to walk to find him. I know I am walking mine.

[manybees]

As you know we are humans first, transgendered second and as such are as varied as any other hum, special interest group I suppose.

The point being please don't let a few odd views scare you off from this place. Susan's is a place worth at least lurking at, I think.[/color]

You're right; so I'll stay around for a bit I suppose.  It just hurts me to see people in denial of their own creation.  I've given a large portion of my life serving others around the world in the name of Christ. I wasn't paid to do it; in fact, I've paid my own expenses. I've seen too many things to doubt my beliefs.  I am measured by what I know and what I do with that knowledge, not by what anyone elses does or knows. I don't have time to worry about the person that professes knowledge or belief but does nothing with it whether that be christianity, democracy, or atheism. 

[tinkerbell]

I think God gives everyone a path to walk to find him. I know I am walking mine.

tinkerbell

[kaelin]

It just hurts me to see people in denial of their own creation.

Don't be.

I don't think people deny the fact that one way or another they are brought into this world.  The issue has more to do with whether we are brought in this world by some divine force called God in the way the Bible (or at least your Bible) says.  Those critical of Christianity (keeping in mind that it is one of many religions, and which also has many of its own distinct denominations) usually do not reject the story of creation on the basis of reactionary refusal.  There are other religions that contradict Christianity.  There is compelling scientific that show this theory to be highly improbable.  As such, accepting the story of creation is not a trivial thing that non-believers are trying to block out of their head; there is good reason to not take it literally.  (Even my *catholic* Holy Bible has footnotes that pretty much say the two stories of creation are just stories).  It is not necessary for you to accept the other theories for yourself, but you should accept that many others here (and anywhere) may believe in alternatives, and they're justified in doing so.  Likewise, others must do the same for you.

As with all belief systems (including atheism), there are believers of Christianity that have been rather ugly in professing their "faith" (Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson), and sometimes even demonstrating hypocrisy of great magnitude (Ted Haggard), and such people can turn others away from their faith.  Even greater numbers have attacked those who are GLBTS, CD, Andro, etc.  They all made it easier for *me* to abandon the idea that the Bible is literal word (as opposed to a collection of fables and stories to be read in context), although doing so was probably a foregone conclusion; it was just a matter of time.

There are plenty of "reasonable" people of most if not all belief systems (atheism and most forms of Christianity included), but they are typically not the ones given the greatest voice.  At message boards like this one, there's pretty decent regulation (and it's not a platform for making lots of money), so the greatest of blow-hards don't get a soap box here.  But this isn't the place to let out pent-up frustration on others, because the others have taken garbage as well, and it's not nice to beat up on fellow downtrodden sorts.  All of us have been hurt, and we need to respect that.

[Suzy]

Do you really know as much about christianity as you profess?  The real christians that I know aren't anything like what you describe.  Kristi, you are right on the mark imho.

Yes I do, I know them by their acts and the acts I see have driven me away from organized Christianity. I still believe in and talk with God, I follow the teachings of Jesus, but I don't follow what most people see as "Christianity" today. I doubt Jesus himself would recognize it if he came back today.

There is no hate in me for Christians, only pity...

I would never want to get into a peeing match over whether there are hypocrites out there in christendom.  Of course there are.  And there are also some shining examples I have met.  In advance, please forgive the scripture references given here.  They are not meant to offend anyone, but to provide further reading if anyone wishes to follow up.  I never will stoop to excusing the actions of the church when it is wrong.  (BTW, in Acts 15, Paul opposes Peter over this whole issue of religious bigotry and non-acceptance of people with a slightly different experience.)  So this is nothing new.

However, there is a major misunderstanding here about "if he came back today."  It is our firm belief that Christ is right now among those who are hurting and outcast.  Wherever we see acts of charity, of compassion, of fairness, of justice, of love, Christ is already there.  Further, Christians will not be judged one day on their degree of religiosity, but on how we have clothed the naked, fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, cared for the sick, visited those in prison, and welcomed the stranger.  This is the true essence of real faith.  For when we do not do those things, we have not done them to Christ  (Matthew 25:31-46).  This judgment will be quite a shock to many who consider themselves religious, and to many who do not. 

As I said, Susan, I agree that much of what is called the church today is nothing like what Christ had in mind.  And I refuse to defend what cannot be defended.  However, I truly believe that Christ is here, alive and active in hearts which may or may not recognize his presence, bringing about seemingly random acts of kindness in ways we could never imagine.

Peace, Please!

Kristi

[jamesBrine]

hate and intolerance? just because i'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm [hateful or intolerant]. for me it wasn't really a matter of choice. i was overwhelmed by the evidence that my religious beliefs were based in outright [falsehood] at worst and [baseless assertion] at best.

Hello,

    I would  like to say that it has been wonderful to read the variety of responses and thoughts. I was drawn quickly to the comment made by Tereasa which is mentioned above. I was wondering if it would be possible to start a thread that would discuss the overwhelming evidence against christianity. My intent is not that i could argue the christian perspective but I am most curious to the arguments considering my experience has been the opposite to that assertion. If that is at all possible that would be great. If not thats cool. Thanks. James

[Susan]

I was wondering if it would be possible to start a thread that would discuss the overwhelming evidence against christianity. My intent is not that i could argue the christian perspective but I am most curious to the arguments considering my experience has been the opposite to that assertion. If that is at all possible that would be great. If not thats cool. Thanks. James

Yep feel free.... Spirituality is for a discussion of religion, that includes the absence of it.