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Karma

Started by Anatta, April 29, 2011, 05:23:22 PM

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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) Most spiritual belief systems have some form of karma attached to their teachings, for example in the Abrahamic religions they tend to have a god dishing out rewards and punishments...But it would seem atheists [who have no affiliation with any spiritual beliefs] also believe in some form of 'karma'...

'Karma' has become part of the English language, but means different things to different people...

I personally experience karma from the Buddhist approach ie, the universal laws of dependant arising /cause and effect=for every action [including thoughts words and deeds] there's a reaction –on a personal/moral level there's no reward nor punishment as such, just the effects resulting from ones skilful or unskilful actions...

So what's your take on karma? Are you a 'follower' or do you think it's just a lot of crap?

I guess this topic could go in either the philosophy or spiritual section...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Padma

I tend to think about karma as something along the lines of "every conscious act has an experienced result - but not every experience is the result of a conscious act." I say this because some Buddhist schools treat everything, but everything, that happens to you as being the consequence of your own past actions, and that doesn't add up for me. That approach actually seems to me to be a sort of "stealth egotism", as if the entire universe revolved around me!

I think everything we do (every choice we make, you could say - including choosing inaction) has an effect, there's no avoiding that fact. In particular, the state of mind with which we do things affects what we (and others) experience from our actions. And to me the practical significance of this is: I can't avoid having an effect in the world, so I might as well choose to have a good effect, and devote time to understanding better what that entails.

But at the same time it seems obvious to me that most of what happens to me is just the consequence of living in a huge and complex universe full of things interacting and being changed by each other - so if I catch a cold, I don't assume it's because I was unkind to someone in a past life! The causes could be any or all of a heady blend of physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, emotion, or spirituality... because in spite of what the movies try to tell us, pretty much nothing happens just for one reason.
Womandrogyne™
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justmeinoz

Regarding personal morality there is a lot too it, but on a day to day level I would suggest that Chaos Theory is a major contributor to our experiences.  Lots of times things happen simply because they can.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Anatta

Quote from: Padma on April 30, 2011, 01:21:38 AM

I think everything we do (every choice we make, you could say - including choosing inaction) has an effect, there's no avoiding that fact. In particular, the state of mind with which we do things affects what we (and others) experience from our actions. And to me the practical significance of this is: I can't avoid having an effect in the world, so I might as well choose to have a good effect, and devote time to understanding better what that entails.



Kia Ora Padma,

Acting skilfully is what life's all about and karma in it's purest form just means 'action' and as the saying goes "For every action there's a reaction!"  Dependant Arising whether intentional or unintentional one just can't avoid it...Getting caught in the rain you catch a cold it's still karma...

Wholesome intent leads to skillful actions leads to blissful results and from blissful results comes contentment and with this feeling of contentment ones intent becomes more wholesome and so the cycle goes on...That's why altruistic people are happy people...   

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda :) 
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Padma

I agree - except that I don't think everything we experience is necessarily our karma, at least not in the direct sense (leaving aside the "well, it's your own fault for getting born a human and ending up somewhere where it rains..." argument :)).

To me, the intertwinedness of everything means that whenever "something happens", there are always a whole collection of causes, never just one. Some of those causes may be our responsibility, some not.
Womandrogyne™
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Anatta

Kia Ora Padma,
::) You're right, Karma can be seen as the cosmic law of cause and effect which governs the whole universe and on a personal level moral causation...

Quote By "Venerable Mahinda" 

"Viewed from the cosmic standpoint, living beings, including humans and animals, are phenomenal as material objects. Their existence is phenomenally relative, in other words, they exist because other things such as food, plants, water etc, including the world and the sun exist. They are all subject to origination and cessation, like all other things of the world - including the world itself, which undergoes the process of integration and disintegration. The existence of the world with that of everything on it is sustained by this law...the karmic law of cause and effect!

But the real significance of the law of cause and effect however lies in the second aspect, ie, as the impersonal law of morality or moral causation. It is this aspect of the Law of KARMA which plays a dominate role in Buddhist ethical teachings.

Viewed in terms of cause and effect, our present life is the result of our previous existence, and the future will be the result of our present.
We are actually the sum total of our past thought, speech and action. What we will be in the future, will be the result of our present thought, speech and action.

Our present lives are conditioned by the past actions and our future will be conditioned by the present actions. In other words we are constantly being moulded by our KARMA !" 


" As I study the Buddha's Dharma-My life becomes much Karma [calmer]!" ;) :)

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Sabriel Facrin

I don't feel that it's possible that there could be a regulating system like karma is usually thought of, and even if it was designed, I feel that it would have seemingly absurd standards because our civilized nature deals with the world in methods that are relatively absurd. (For a crude example, nature is totally alright with death and violence, but it's a bad thing in the civilized world)  There is a karma-like effect from social reputation, but I don't feel that this can be considered 'karma', especially since reputation can be mislead or otherwise unfair.
However, I do feel like there's another kind of karma: A self-fullfilling karma.  I feel that the soul of a person inevitably becomes forced to come to terms with the personality it has achieved in its life.  Thusforth a soul of a bad person will suffer from itself, and a soul of a good person will become happy from itself.
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Anatta

Kia Ora Sabriel,

::) But is there such a thing as a soul/a permanent never changing self ???

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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eskay

I remember reading an article on some of the issues with karma earlier this year for my medieval Chinese philosophy course (I forget the author, but I could go find it again, probably.) One of the big issues it raised with the concept of karma is how it would be implemented. Simply put, with all of the given explanations of how karmic 'data' is stored for future redistribution, there are huge problems with a) proportionality of good/bad retribution, b) how such retribution would interact with the laws of causality, and c) how such data could be stored and redistributed when (if you're a Buddhist) you do not believe that the self actually exists. These problems only get even larger if you factor in that most of the belief systems that utilize karma also believe in some form of reincarnation--what factors tie your current body to the future one?

I'm pretty sure I didn't do his actual arguments justice just then, but it's still good stuff to think about.
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kate durcal

Chaos is a theory (a proven set of scientific facts) that governs many phenomena. In biology chaos has been found in grow and development, physiology, and more interestingly in certain brain process. Chaotic systems can be perturbed and even controlled. I do not see how chaos can be connected with the concept of karma, but I would delighted if somebody could enlighten me.

I agree that every action produces a reaction, but there is no need to claim divine intervention on this.

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Anatta

Quote from: eskay on May 22, 2011, 06:12:11 PM
I remember reading an article on some of the issues with karma earlier this year for my medieval Chinese philosophy course (I forget the author, but I could go find it again, probably.) One of the big issues it raised with the concept of karma is how it would be implemented. Simply put, with all of the given explanations of how karmic 'data' is stored for future redistribution, there are huge problems with a) proportionality of good/bad retribution, b) how such retribution would interact with the laws of causality, and c) how such data could be stored and redistributed when (if you're a Buddhist) you do not believe that the self actually exists. These problems only get even larger if you factor in that most of the belief systems that utilize karma also believe in some form of reincarnation--what factors tie your current body to the future one?

I'm pretty sure I didn't do his actual arguments justice just then, but it's still good stuff to think about.

Kia Ora Eskay,

::) I have no wish to re-invent the wheel by explaining in my own words so the following quote should shed some light on what it is you want to know and I suppose anyone else whose interested...In a nutshell it's "karmic energies" that pass on from one body to the next ignited by consciousness... 


[quote The Non-Self.
The concept of rebirth is unfamiliar to most Western people. Its philosophical and traditional foundation is found in India, where the theory of transmigration of souls had presumably existed long before it was written down in the Upanishads around 300 BC.

The Buddhist concept is subtly different from the classical Indian understanding, because it denies the existence of a self or a soul. In Buddhism, the idea of self is merely an illusion. Man wrongly identifies perception, consciousness, mind and body with what he calls self. In reality, there is no abiding entity that could be identified with a self, because the states of perception, consciousness, and mind and body constantly change.

The body is mortal and when it dies, all mental activities cease. That is why there is no soul. The idea of soul is simply an extension of the self; in fact it is an immortal version of the self that supposedly survives physical death. Buddhism denies the existence of such an entity. Instead, what we call self is just a stream of consciousness that draws identity from concepts and memories, all of which are impermanent.

The idea of an abiding self is deceptive, because it is derived from unenlightened reasoning. The word self simply provides a reference frame for the mind-body phenomena of sentient beings. We usually identify it with our body and the stream of consciousness that is sustained by sense perceptions and thoughts. In reality, what we call self is neither abiding nor detached from the rest of the world and other beings. Buddhists call this the "neither self nor non-self".

What is reborn if not the "self"?

If the idea of non-self sounds odd, then it must sound even more curious that non-self can be reborn. There is a seeming contradiction between the canon of rebirth and that of the non-self, which even many Buddhists find difficult to understand. The contradiction is, however, only on the surface and can be solved if one pictures the self as the result of karmic formation. This can be put into less abstract words:

If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.

Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path.

[/quote]

I hope this "enlightens" those who are somewhat  unenlightened when it comes to Buddhism-karma and rebirth...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

Quote from: kate durcal on May 22, 2011, 06:39:00 PM
Chaos is a theory (a proven set of scientific facts) that governs many phenomena. In biology chaos has been found in grow and development, physiology, and more interestingly in certain brain process. Chaotic systems can be perturbed and even controlled. I do not see how chaos can be connected with the concept of karma, but I would delighted if somebody could enlighten me.

I agree that every action produces a reaction, but there is no need to claim divine intervention on this.

Kia Ora Kate,

::) Enjoy...  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/resonance.html

In Buddhism we believe that all things are connected, even academic subjects such as math and physics...Mind you on a personal level I'm hopeless at both...So does this make me a "bad" Buddhist ? Or just a dumb one  :icon_lol:

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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