Hi All,
I hope everyone is doing just fine. A lot has been happening in my life right now and I feel like sharing it with you people here might help me. I will keep this as brief. I have always questioned my gender identity ever since the day I remember and I always pictured myself as a female until I hit my puberty when I started to feel ashamed of myself for feeling that way. I had a very late puberty for a male. Post-puberty, my voice became deeper as you would expect and my petite figure ended up becoming massive. I stand tall @ 189 cm and I also have very long legs. As bizarre as it might sound, I never knew how my male parts worked (could be because I was so uncomfortable with them to an extent I did not bother with them). I am in my early 20s and recently my breasts started to grow(without any HRT) and now it's almost a C cup. Due to my caved-in chest and wide root, it's not visible unless I wear tight shirts or take them off. Long story short, I started to look more feminine than masculine. Though it made me feel better, the way others saw me made me feel very comfortable. It went to an extent where people started to call my figure girly. To give you an idea, My measurements are 38-27-38 and I am not fat by any means. I wanted to know what could possibly be causing this, So I did my blood work and found out that my estrogen levels were in the range of young ciswomen. As weird as it was, my testosterone levels were in the normal range for men(earlier tests taken a year ago indicated low T). I consulted with a doctor and a semen analysis was ordered only to find out that it did not have any sperm. Karyotyping was also done to rule out any genetic abnormalities or intersex conditions like XXY or XX male syndrome. I am still waiting for the results but in the meantime, I am confused as hell. Could an intersex condition explain this? Is it just a bad case of aromatization of testosterone to estrogen? Regardless, why do I feel guilty for wanting to live my life as a woman? Also, why do I want to continue living as a man even though I know deep in my heart that I have never seen as a male? Am I too scared of embracing my identity? Probably, yes. Then, I ask myself "What is the point of living as an infertile and effeminate male with boobs when I could easily pass as a cis female (except for my deep voice)?". I wish I did not have any options. I know that being transgender is not a choice but at the same time, I just can't transition right now due to my status in my country of residence. It could potentially kick me out of the country. If my karyotype comes back as positive for XXY(Klinefelter's) or XX male, I might be put on HRT to keep my testosterone levels stable for a male. As of now, I have not disclosed my complicated gender identity to my doctor or my family, so they all assume that I am just a feminine looking guy. Not to mention that my current appearance has caused a significant amount of distress in my family. I just want to know what you would do if you were in my shoes. Would you consider my situation to be a blessing in disguise and come out to everyone without thinking about consequences(potentially getting kicked out of country of residence eventually)?
With Love,
Jimmy
I am sorry that you are experiencing this stress. As I read your post, the first thing I thought was Klinefelter's, so I am glad you are getting checked out for that.
If your country of residence is not safe for you, then you should seriously consider moving to somewhere more suitable. Your safety comes first. Once in a safe place, then you would have the option of transitioning. Life is too short to go through it as someone else.
Quote from: KathyLauren on January 29, 2019, 07:06:53 AM
I am sorry that you are experiencing this stress. As I read your post, the first thing I thought was Klinefelter's, so I am glad you are getting checked out for that.
If your country of residence is not safe for you, then you should seriously consider moving to somewhere more suitable. Your safety comes first. Once in a safe place, then you would have the option of transitioning. Life is too short to go through it as someone else.
I am sorry if I gave any wrong opinion about my country of residence. I live in Canada and it is way safer than my country of birth. People are killed for being transgender in my country of birth. So, In a way I feel really safe living in my country of birth. However, it's a tricky situation because I am on a temporary work permit and I heard that there is a recent trend of turning down permanent residence applications of those who are considered to be a potential burden on the universal health care system. I am an healthy adult except for my possible intersex condition and gender identity. It's irony because Canada is one of the very few progressive and LGBTQ+ positive countries in the world yet have a weird intake system which refuses permanent residence if the medical condition of the candidate calls for treatments costing more than 7000 CAD a year. I am sure HRT does not cost anywhere close to 7000 CAD but SRS does and they automatically assume that you will be getting SRS if you have not had it. So, It's a bit of headache.
Hi jameswhiteshine
I m a xxy (and seemingly many other chromosome mutations) person. When i was your age, nobody knew about all those intersex conditions. I grew up and tried to live my life as a mal, bt I always fell a little short of the goal. Everything went pretty Ok until my feminine side could not be hidden any longer, which caused my marriage to collapsed. I am now living as a woman,and transition for me was way easier than for many other trans women, because my body never developed any secondary male sex characteristics.
I am now living as the gender I eel I should have lived all my life, and I am pretty happy as a woman.
From my experience with a similar conditio you ha, I can only recommend that you follow your feelings and do what feels right. you may want o consult with a therapist, specialized in transgender issues, to help you to sort out your feelings!
I wish you lots of luck for your path through life!
Quote from: Dietlind on January 29, 2019, 11:40:57 PM
Hi jameswhiteshine
I m a xxy (and seemingly many other chromosome mutations) person. When i was your age, nobody knew about all those intersex conditions. I grew up and tried to live my life as a mal, bt I always fell a little short of the goal. Everything went pretty Ok until my feminine side could not be hidden any longer, which caused my marriage to collapsed. I am now living as a woman,and transition for me was way easier than for many other trans women, because my body never developed any secondary male sex characteristics.
I am now living as the gender I eel I should have lived all my life, and I am pretty happy as a woman.
From my experience with a similar conditio you ha, I can only recommend that you follow your feelings and do what feels right. you may want o consult with a therapist, specialized in transgender issues, to help you to sort out your feelings!
I wish you lots of luck for your path through life!
Good to hear from a person who had similar experience. To be honest, I was not aware of all these intersex conditions until recently. I thought intersex meant having ambiguous genitalia. I guess I was wrong after all. All I know right now is I am an infertile person assigned male at birth waiting for the karyotype results. I don't have many secondary male characteristics other than having a tall muscular body. Guess what, many women are tall and muscular too. I just wish I did not have a bad beard shadow. I think it's because of a combination of light skin and dark hair as my facial hair is very fine. I just need to find a good therapist.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on January 30, 2019, 12:22:04 AM
Good to hear from a person who had similar experience. To be honest, I was not aware of all these intersex conditions until recently. I thought intersex meant having ambiguous genitalia. I guess I was wrong after all. All I know right now is I am an infertile person assigned male at birth waiting for the karyotype results. I don't have many secondary male characteristics other than having a tall muscular body. Guess what, many women are tall and muscular too. I just wish I did not have a bad beard shadow. I think it's because of a combination of light skin and dark hair as my facial hair is very fine. I just need to find a good therapist.
You may want to read through this website to learn what conditions are all considered to be inersex
http://www.isna.org/
With 6', I am also rather tall for my generation, but that is typical for people with XXY Syndrome. The only male sex identifiers I have are my genitalia, and my facial hair (not very fast growing). I do not have an Adams Apple, and have not a very deep voice.
You might have a different version of intersex than I have, and your test results should show some of them, because a Karyotype will not show all possible chromosome mutations. Some of them will come as a surprise along the line, when you find out that you are different from your peers in some biological area. I recently found out that I have the MYH16 mutation which was discovered in 2017. This mutation prevented that I have any wisdom teeth (I like that).
Who knows how many other mutations I have, but I don't care. My life is good, what else do I want?
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on January 29, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
I am sorry if I gave any wrong opinion about my country of residence. I live in Canada and it is way safer than my country of birth. People are killed for being transgender in my country of birth. So, In a way I feel really safe living in my country of birth. However, it's a tricky situation because I am on a temporary work permit and I heard that there is a recent trend of turning down permanent residence applications of those who are considered to be a potential burden on the universal health care system. I am an healthy adult except for my possible intersex condition and gender identity. It's irony because Canada is one of the very few progressive and LGBTQ+ positive countries in the world yet have a weird intake system which refuses permanent residence if the medical condition of the candidate calls for treatments costing more than 7000 CAD a year. I am sure HRT does not cost anywhere close to 7000 CAD but SRS does and they automatically assume that you will be getting SRS if you have not had it. So, It's a bit of headache.
Ah, I understand. Canada is indeed a good place for trans people, but I do understand the difficulties of applying for permanent residence status. HRT would not be a factor in the assessment of your medical costs, since prescriptions are not covered in most parts of Canada. SRS is covered everywhere, and the costs would be held as a factor against you in judging your residency application. So I understand your predicament.
I wish you good luck in the decisions ahead of you.
Quote from: Dietlind on January 30, 2019, 12:55:54 AM
You may want to read through this website to learn what conditions are all considered to be inersex
http://www.isna.org/
With 6', I am also rather tall for my generation, but that is typical for people with XXY Syndrome. The only male sex identifiers I have are my genitalia, and my facial hair (not very fast growing). I do not have an Adams Apple, and have not a very deep voice.
You might have a different version of intersex than I have, and your test results should show some of them, because a Karyotype will not show all possible chromosome mutations. Some of them will come as a surprise along the line, when you find out that you are different from your peers in some biological area. I recently found out that I have the MYH16 mutation which was discovered in 2017. This mutation prevented that I have any wisdom teeth (I like that).
Who knows how many other mutations I have, but I don't care. My life is good, what else do I want?
Thank you for the info. I really appreciate it. On a side note, I am the tallest person in my family with most of my family members no taller than 165 cm. I never realized why I was so tall in the first place. This might sound very weird but my voice was always gendered as female until I hit late puberty and all of a sudden, it became very deep. Though it's very deep, I can pretty much get back to my pre-puberty voice with a bit of effort. As for facial hair growth, I don't think they grow very fast but it's still there. I read somewhere that once your testosterone levels hit high enough, it triggers the facial hair growth for the rest of the life. It's not uncommon for some intersex people to have testosterone levels in the range of male at some point of their life. I mean my T levels were really low until the last test and as far as I know, it's almost impossible to have high levels of testosterone and estrogen at the same time because they inhibit each other. Perhaps, I should have my blood work redone.
Quote from: KathyLauren on January 30, 2019, 07:04:51 AM
Ah, I understand. Canada is indeed a good place for trans people, but I do understand the difficulties of applying for permanent residence status. HRT would not be a factor in the assessment of your medical costs, since prescriptions are not covered in most parts of Canada. SRS is covered everywhere, and the costs would be held as a factor against you in judging your residency application. So I understand your predicament.
I wish you good luck in the decisions ahead of you.
Thank you. Yes, it is indeed a great place for LGBTQ+ people. I just need to hold on a little longer to get my PR and I will be all set. I think it gets really tricky when you are supposed to declare your underlying medical conditions. I don't think they would assume all intersex people get SRS but I am sure as hell they assume MTF transsexuals get SRS. So, as long as I don't have my gender identity assessed until I get my PR, I should be just fine. I have lived like this for 20 odd years and I really don't mind living this way for 2 more years. Honestly, Dysphoria does feel overwhelming at times but you gotta think about your long time goals. I would rather live 2 more years as a miserable man here than living the rest of my life as a woman in my country of birth.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on January 29, 2019, 01:34:54 AM
Hi All,
I hope everyone is doing just fine. A lot has been happening in my life right now and I feel like sharing it with you people here might help me. I will keep this as brief. I have always questioned my gender identity ever since the day I remember and I always pictured myself as a female until I hit my puberty when I started to feel ashamed of myself for feeling that way. I had a very late puberty for a male. Post-puberty, my voice became deeper as you would expect and my petite figure ended up becoming massive. I stand tall @ 189 cm and I also have very long legs. As bizarre as it might sound, I never knew how my male parts worked (could be because I was so uncomfortable with them to an extent I did not bother with them). I am in my early 20s and recently my breasts started to grow(without any HRT) and now it's almost a C cup. Due to my caved-in chest and wide root, it's not visible unless I wear tight shirts or take them off. Long story short, I started to look more feminine than masculine. Though it made me feel better, the way others saw me made me feel very comfortable. It went to an extent where people started to call my figure girly. To give you an idea, My measurements are 38-27-38 and I am not fat by any means. I wanted to know what could possibly be causing this, So I did my blood work and found out that my estrogen levels were in the range of young ciswomen. As weird as it was, my testosterone levels were in the normal range for men(earlier tests taken a year ago indicated low T). I consulted with a doctor and a semen analysis was ordered only to find out that it did not have any sperm. Karyotyping was also done to rule out any genetic abnormalities or intersex conditions like XXY or XX male syndrome. I am still waiting for the results but in the meantime, I am confused as hell. Could an intersex condition explain this? Is it just a bad case of aromatization of testosterone to estrogen? Regardless, why do I feel guilty for wanting to live my life as a woman? Also, why do I want to continue living as a man even though I know deep in my heart that I have never seen as a male? Am I too scared of embracing my identity? Probably, yes. Then, I ask myself "What is the point of living as an infertile and effeminate male with boobs when I could easily pass as a cis female (except for my deep voice)?". I wish I did not have any options. I know that being transgender is not a choice but at the same time, I just can't transition right now due to my status in my country of residence. It could potentially kick me out of the country. If my karyotype comes back as positive for XXY(Klinefelter's) or XX male, I might be put on HRT to keep my testosterone levels stable for a male. As of now, I have not disclosed my complicated gender identity to my doctor or my family, so they all assume that I am just a feminine looking guy. Not to mention that my current appearance has caused a significant amount of distress in my family. I just want to know what you would do if you were in my shoes. Would you consider my situation to be a blessing in disguise and come out to everyone without thinking about consequences(potentially getting kicked out of country of residence eventually)?
With Love,
Jimmy
I think that you have had plenty of signs to show you the way. You are obviously female. Many of us who are transitioning would give anything to have your measurements Without endangering yourself, I'd say that you should slowly, gradually move into your true feminine self so that your family can grow into it with you. Your health depends on accepting and being happy with who you are. Embrace health and happiness, dear sister!
Hugs,
Sarah From Chitown
[emoji257]
Quote from: SarahWithin on January 30, 2019, 01:05:31 PM
I think that you have had plenty of signs to show you the way. You are obviously female. Many of us who are transitioning would give anything to have your measurements Without endangering yourself, I'd say that you should slowly, gradually move into your true feminine self so that your family can grow into it with you. Your health depends on accepting and being happy with who you are. Embrace health and happiness, dear sister!
Hugs,
Sarah From Chitown
[emoji257]
I am slowly learning to embrace myself. I am pretty sure a cis male would not be questioning his gender identity like I did and I still do. I am probably doing this to myself because of society and its stigma about trans people. About the measurements, I do feel it's a blessing in disguise but it doesn't really help when I am presenting as male. I tried growing my facial hair to avoid being asked silly questions by people but that made me to fail as male even more. If there's anything I wish to change, I would like a higher voice and maybe a narrower jaw. Of course, there are women with square jaws but it's a lot of work when it comes to styling your hair.
With Love,
Jimmy
There are online resources for learning to talk in a more feminine manner. I gender as female on the phone.
I am in a similar situation in that my body is also very feminine. 5' 3" 32-26-32. Just an A cup, but that is like of most GGs my weight. No adams apple. No HRT. Slightly long legs which is a little unusual for someone who is short.
I've been growing out my hair, it is now below my shoulders. And wearing tighter clothes. But no makeup or dresses. I now get fewer confused looks when I'm out and about doing my shopping and other errands.
Quote from: Maid Marion on January 30, 2019, 07:20:15 PM
There are online resources for learning to talk in a more feminine manner. I gender as female on the phone.
I am in a similar situation in that my body is also very feminine. 5' 3" 32-26-32. Just an A cup, but that is like of most GGs my weight. No adams apple. No HRT. Slightly long legs which is a little unusual for someone who is short.
I've been growing out my hair, it is now below my shoulders. And wearing tighter clothes. But no makeup or dresses. I now get fewer confused looks when I'm out and about doing my shopping and other errands.
Interesting. Makes me realize I am not alone after all. I am about a foot taller than you, hence my measurements are little "thick". I didn't mention this earlier but I do not have an Adam's Apple either. My hair is around my shoulder and I would really like it longer. Funny thing is I would look like a tomboy if I just trim them. So, I hold on to them dearly. You look feminine in your DP. Are you intersex by any chance? Sorry if this question is little personal. Also, do you have any facial hair growth? Thank you.
With Love,
Jimmy
I still get gendered as female even if I let my facial hair grow. It could be because I'm so short. Only 1% of men are this short. Fewer where I live right now. I've never been tested for Intersex. My health is pretty good. My doctor just tells me to avoid stress and not lose any more weight.
Quote from: Maid Marion on January 31, 2019, 01:24:54 AM
I still get gendered as female even if I let my facial hair grow. It could be because I'm so short. Only 1% of men are this short. Fewer where I live right now. I've never been tested for Intersex. My health is pretty good. My doctor just tells me to avoid stress and not lose any more weight.
I wish I was shorter. Being tall has more negatives than perks. I am not only tall but my legs are disproportionately taller than my upper body, that makes it even harder. Imagine sitting in a coach class for hours, I bet you would not have any issues. Being tall just sucks. Does not really help when I get dresses online. Most of the dresses for my size are just too short for my body. Plus size dresses are pretty loose for most part. It's important to maintain a healthy weight as being underweight is dangerous than being overweight. Good luck!
With Love,
Jimmy
I don't know whether it is the result of being a minority where I live or being short, but I also have most the the walk and mannerisms of a woman. I've had professional help on my gait. Which means it isn't normal. :o
Sorry hear of the dysphoria. I do have an denial story. I didn't realize I had public hair until it had grown in fully! It is like my brain didn't register the changes for a long time.
Someone who is intersex should be able to easily "fly under the radar." It is something that the medical community doesn't really acknowledge. Nor does society. So there is an inherent denial factor.
Good luck!
Quote from: Maid Marion on January 31, 2019, 06:47:52 AM
I don't know whether it is the result of being a minority where I live or being short,
This could be a reason, because Asian people seem to be generally shorter than Caucasian ones. I remember my times in Japan, where I felt like a towering giant (6') standing out in any crowd!
Quote
Someone who is intersex should be able to easily "fly under the radar." It is something that the medical community doesn't really acknowledge. Nor does society. So there is an inherent denial factor.
Good luck!
Don't forget that most physicians have no clue what to look for when they see intersex people. It became really "mainstream " in the late 90's, well after most docs had finished med school!
i am one of those medical persons, who did not even realize that i was intersex, because I did not know anything about it. The only thing I knew was that I was different, but had not much of an explanation or it!
I don't think it is a denial factor, but rather an education factor. The majority of society has never heard about something like intersex, and can't even imagine to have a multiple number of sexes being housed in one singel human body (it is actually even hard for us intersex people to get our arms around this). I think that is one of the reasons why I never developed any real gender identity. What gender are you, being raised as a male while mostly having a female body? How on earth can a young person develop any identity of what they are, if they try to be a male, but never can keep up with their male peers, and feel way more comfortable with females, who, however, reject them because they are supposed to be male!
I lived in a constant emotional mess, because I did not know who I was! At that time, nobody else knew that either!
And under the radar I was, trying to live as a man, until that exercise failed badly!
Now I try to live as a woman, and hope I can succeed with this gender! But I still don't have a real gender identity, which allows me to present as male as easy, as it is to present as female. I like the female roll better, and have this as my default gender roll.
Quote from: Dietlind on January 29, 2019, 11:40:57 PM
Hi jameswhiteshine
I m a xxy (and seemingly many other chromosome mutations) person. When i was your age, nobody knew about all those intersex conditions. I grew up and tried to live my life as a mal, bt I always fell a little short of the goal. Everything went pretty Ok until my feminine side could not be hidden any longer, which caused my marriage to collapsed. I am now living as a woman,and transition for me was way easier than for many other trans women, because my body never developed any secondary male sex characteristics.
I am now living as the gender I eel I should have lived all my life, and I am pretty happy as a woman.
From my experience with a similar conditio you ha, I can only recommend that you follow your feelings and do what feels right. you may want o consult with a therapist, specialized in transgender issues, to help you to sort out your feelings!
I wish you lots of luck for your path through life!
When you say you never had any masculine characteristics, do you also mean that you never had a beard? because I've seen videos of people with klinefelter and they shave their face lol.
And I saw a picture of you in your man mode, and you looked like a normal old man to me.
And if you show us a picture of you with normal camera in ur girl mode?
I don't try to be aggressive, thanks <3
Quote from: Dietlind on January 31, 2019, 09:31:55 AM
This could be a reason, because Asian people seem to be generally shorter than Caucasian ones. I remember my times in Japan, where I felt like a towering giant (6') standing out in any crowd!Don't forget that most physicians have no clue what to look for when they see intersex people. It became really "mainstream " in the late 90's, well after most docs had finished med school!
i am one of those medical persons, who did not even realize that i was intersex, because I did not know anything about it. The only thing I knew was that I was different, but had not much of an explanation or it!
I don't think it is a denial factor, but rather an education factor. The majority of society has never heard about something like intersex, and can't even imagine to have a multiple number of sexes being housed in one singel human body (it is actually even hard for us intersex people to get our arms around this). I think that is one of the reasons why I never developed any real gender identity. What gender are you, being raised as a male while mostly having a female body? How on earth can a young person develop any identity of what they are, if they try to be a male, but never can keep up with their male peers, and feel way more comfortable with females, who, however, reject them because they are supposed to be male!
I lived in a constant emotional mess, because I did not know who I was! At that time, nobody else knew that either!
And under the radar I was, trying to live as a man, until that exercise failed badly!
Now I try to live as a woman, and hope I can succeed with this gender! But I still don't have a real gender identity, which allows me to present as male as easy, as it is to present as female. I like the female roll better, and have this as my default gender roll.
I don't ever recall having the so-called male identity. Of course, I pretended to be a male. I even tried to be alpha male but the truth is it never worked. Talking about identity is complicated. Most Trans folks say they feel like opposite sex which I get it being a trans person myself but how do you know what a biological woman feels like and the vice versa? Most cis people think that trans people want to change their sex but in reality, it has to do more with making your body align with your identity. Your identity is in your head and there's no way to chop your head and fix it to a female or male body. So, the only real way to make peace with yourself is to alter your body to fit your identity. I am yet to hear about a treatment which alters gender identity. This could be because of biological reasons. Many trans people detransition or commit suicide because they feel like they could never look the way they always felt. I believe a progressive and more-accepting society will go a long way toward eradicating high suicide rates in the trans community.
Quote from: Astxl on January 31, 2019, 10:03:01 AM
When you say you never had any masculine characteristics, do you also mean that you never had a beard? because I've seen videos of people with klinefelter and they shave their face lol.
And I saw a picture of you in your man mode, and you looked like a normal old man to me.
And if you show us a picture of you with normal camera in ur girl mode?
I don't try to be aggressive, thanks <3
I know this question is not directed toward me but as far as I am aware, most people with klinefelter's syndrome have some amount of facial hair growth. Some of them do have body hair while some don't. So, it's really more of a spectrum. As of now, I am waiting for my karyotype results, so I can't tell yet If I have klinefelter's or not. Speaking about myself, my facial hair does grow from time to time. However, it's finer and impossible for me to grow a full beard.
Quote from: Astxl on January 31, 2019, 10:03:01 AM
When you say you never had any masculine characteristics, do you also mean that you never had a beard? because I've seen videos of people with klinefelter and they shave their face lol.
And I saw a picture of you in your man mode, and you looked like a normal old man to me.
And if you show us a picture of you with normal camera in ur girl mode?
I don't try to be aggressive, thanks <3
Ii have a very slight beard growth, and need to shave max twice a week. Most of the time once a week is enough.
In the picture in man mode, I wear zero makeup, I do use makeup in my female mode, and also have my hair done in a more feminin way (I wear a wig in my avatar).
I have another host of mutations besides Klinefelter that cause different stuff with my body!
The only mle identifiers I have are my genitalia and a little beard growth.
I don't know why you want to doubt what I write here, because i am who and what I am. And try to live as good of a life as I can.
Many intersex persons do not have a single kind of chromosome mutation only, and the different mutations we have, make us different from each other!
I am a medical professional, and you can believe that I looked as deep as possible into my symptoms and condition!
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on January 31, 2019, 02:42:04 PM
I know this question is not directed toward me but as far as I am aware, most people with klinefelter's syndrome have some amount of facial hair growth. Some of them do have body hair while some don't. So, it's really more of a spectrum. As of now, I am waiting for my karyotype results, so I can't tell yet If I have klinefelter's or not. Speaking about myself, my facial hair does grow from time to time. However, it's finer and impossible for me to grow a full beard.
You seem to be similar to me considering your beard growth!
You might have, like I do, several additional chromosome mutations, and even if you are Klinefelter, you are different than I am. Klinefelter is only the general mutation, and as you say, it is a spectrum! Once you accept that you are different, you can arrange you life to match those differences, and can live a pretty normal, good life.
Quote from: Dietlind on January 31, 2019, 07:08:56 PM
Ii have a very slight beard growth, and need to shave max twice a week. Most of the time once a week is enough.
In the picture in man mode, I wear zero makeup, I do use makeup in my female mode, and also have my hair done in a more feminin way (I wear a wig in my avatar).
I have another host of mutations besides Klinefelter that cause different stuff with my body!
The only mle identifiers I have are my genitalia and a little beard growth.
I don't know why you want to doubt what I write here, because i am who and what I am. And try to live as good of a life as I can.
Many intersex persons do not have a single kind of chromosome mutation only, and the different mutations we have, make us different from each other!
I am a medical professional, and you can believe that I looked as deep as possible into my symptoms and condition!
I have never dismissed you for who you are, because only you know who you really are and you must embrace that.
Only I do not know much about the Klinefelter syndrome and I wanted to know a little more.
because it seems that phenotypically they look normal masculine, but it has nothing to do with gender identity, which is something we are born with, regardless of what genitals we are born with <3
Thank you :3
Quote from: Dietlind on January 31, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
You seem to be similar to me considering your beard growth!
You might have, like I do, several additional chromosome mutations, and even if you are Klinefelter, you are different than I am. Klinefelter is only the general mutation, and as you say, it is a spectrum! Once you accept that you are different, you can arrange you life to match those differences, and can live a pretty normal, good life.
I prepared myself for the karyotype results. I was quite scared at the beginning as I heard people were having issues with their vision due to their intersex condition. I can't deny what's there. It's odd that my breasts and hips are growing like I hit a second puberty. It does not really make any sense to me as my testosterone levels are in normal range for men of my age yet my estrogen levels are in the range of young women. I read somewhere that estrogen suppresses testosterone. It's like testosterone in my body is literally doing nothing at the moment which might be a good thing for dysphoria but at the same time, it makes me even more curious. I swear I never did any steroids which generally converts testosterone to estrogen and have similar effects in men. Another thing that pops up in my mind is Androgen Insensitivity. If that's the case, how come I have few male secondary sex characteristics. I can only hope that my karyotype result has the answers. For your information, My body fat percentage is slightly below 15% and there's no way in hell my minimal body fat is converting t to estrogen. My boobs don't look like man boobs that you typically see in overweight/obese men, they look different. Not to mention that I was lactating not so long ago. My blood work and other tests did not indicate any other medical condition which might have caused this. It's getting interesting everyday.
Quote from: Astxl on January 31, 2019, 07:32:54 PM
I have never dismissed you for who you are, because only you know who you really are and you must embrace that.
Only I do not know much about the Klinefelter syndrome and I wanted to know a little more.
because it seems that phenotypically they look normal masculine, but it has nothing to do with gender identity, which is something we are born with, regardless of what genitals we are born with <3
Thank you :3
I can understand your curiosity. If I do happen to have klinefelter's syndrome. I am more than happy to answer whatever questions you have. Simply speaking, we don't know a lot of intersex conditions because most of them were discovered recently. Klinefelter's syndrome is not as rare as people think but somehow one can have varying degrees of symptoms. Have you ever heard about Chloe Prince who was born as Ted Prince? She was(still is?) married to a woman and they had children before she came out as transgender woman. To her surprise, she found that she had Klinefelter's after transitioning to a female. People affected with Klinefelter are typically infertile but this seems like an exception unless they had sperm donors. Some of my symptoms indicate that I could possibly have Klinefelter's but I just gotta wait for the Karyotype result.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 01, 2019, 12:21:03 AM
. People affected with Klinefelter are typically infertile but this seems like an exception unless they had sperm donors. Some of my symptoms indicate that I could possibly have Klinefelter's but I just gotta wait for the Karyotype result.
And the key word here is typically! I was able to father a child (during 36 years of unprotected life in my marriage), but that was it, and it was rather early in our marriage (I was way younger than) Klinefelter Syndrom conditions are as varying as almost all intersex conditions. Most of us have some other chromosome mutations along with it (I know of several which I have), which again makes me to be different from another person with Klinefelter, who may also have different other mutations.
I have some very typical Klinefelter indicators, I had a hard time to learn reading and do math (I was in 3rd grade when a tutor was able to finally teach me how to read). I have pretty bad eyes, and I am diabetic . I am tall, but not very muscular. All Klinefelter indicators, but I don't now if I would have had those problems without being Klinefelter, who knows!
I am now at a point, at which I use the benefits of my intersex condition. I is way easier to be a woman, if you don't have to deal with body hair, or do not have an Adams Apple, or do not have any hair loss on your head, have a naturally rather high pitch voice etc.
I do not know of any specific chromosomal anomalies, but I was exposed to high levels of diethylstilbesterol in utero, something like 500 times the concentration that would result from modern birth control pills. This stuff inhibited testosterone receptors, blocking the normal masculinization pathways starting around week 10 of fetal development.
As a result, I was born with male genitalia and rib cage, laid down in the first few weeks of development, and a moderately feminine structure for my extremities. The sexually dimorphic regions of the brain appear to be largely on the feminine side, which in research to date correlates well with being a MtF transgender person.
I had a fairly feminine appearance as a child, with anomalies such as undescended testicles. This made some aspects of school fairly hellish. It also allowed me to pass as a 15 year old hippie chick. :)
Puberty did not occur naturally, but was induced on recommendation of doctors and psychologists as part of treatment for a 'behavioral disorder', effectively being trans and wanting OUT! Ah, Standards of Care, 1969 style!
I was able to father children, but had a sperm count of a bit less than half normal. This wasn't surprising, as only one testicle ever descended after years of testosterone injections. I never did get body hair, but the damn beard hair was annoying enough.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2019, 04:51:42 PM
I do not know of any specific chromosomal anomalies, but I was exposed to high levels of diethylstilbesterol in utero, something like 500 times the concentration that would result from modern birth control pills. This stuff inhibited testosterone receptors, blocking the normal masculinization pathways starting around week 10 of fetal development.
As a result, I was born with male genitalia and rib cage, laid down in the first few weeks of development, and a moderately feminine structure for my extremities. The sexually dimorphic regions of the brain appear to be largely on the feminine side, which in research to date correlates well with being a MtF transgender person.
I had a fairly feminine appearance as a child, with anomalies such as undescended testicles. This made some aspects of school fairly hellish. It also allowed me to pass as a 15 year old hippie chick. :)
Puberty did not occur naturally, but was induced on recommendation of doctors and psychologists as part of treatment for a 'behavioral disorder', effectively being trans and wanting OUT! Ah, Standards of Care, 1969 style!
I was able to father children, but had a sperm count of a bit less than half normal. This wasn't surprising, as only one testicle ever descended after years of testosterone injections. I never did get body hair, but the damn beard hair was annoying enough.
This sounds interesting to me. I also forgot to mention that I too have only one testicle. I do have some body hair (not as much as cis males) but since I have light skin and dark hair, it looks hairier than it actually is. I don't know how to explain my facial appearance but I feel like it's a blend of masculine and feminine features as I have a prominent nose and square jaw but I also have almond shaped eyes, low feminine hairline (no signs of male pattern baldness), normal chin, and prominent lips. Funnily, I get gendered as female even in my boy mode when I upload it to how-old.net . Now, the last part is gonna sound very weird but I have already had my sex changed to male in my first passport. I was too young to remember it but my first passport still has 'F' under the sex marker. All my certificates after this change obviously mentions my sex as male. I am not too sure what happened when I was young but I have a penis and huge scar between my scrotum and anus. As far as I know, one of my testicles did not descend until I was like 3 or something and when it did, they removed it due to hemorrhagic necrosis (no visible signs of trauma). It does not make any sense to see the scar extending beyond the scrotum. I am not paranoid as my karyotyping will reveal if I have an intersex condition. If you don't mind, how were you able find all these things about you?
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 03, 2019, 03:49:30 AM
I am not too sure what happened when I was young but I have a penis and huge scar between my scrotum and anus.
It's normal for a male to have a ridge along that path. What would be abnormal is if you have the ridge and an additional scar along the same general path. We all start out female and that's a remnant of what could have been. :(
Quote from: Dena on February 03, 2019, 09:41:25 AM
It's normal for a male to have a ridge along that path. What would be abnormal is if you have the ridge and an additional scar along the same general path. We all start out female and that's a remnant of what could have been. :(
I was not referring to the ridge (Perineal raphe), it is a surgical scar. Looks similar to the scar that I got from orchidectomy. That's why I think it is abnormal.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 03, 2019, 03:49:30 AM
...If you don't mind, how were you able find all these things about you?
My mother was an RN, degree from the old College of Nursing of Providence Hospital in Oakland, California. She had her degree before I was born. When she first married, she had a series of miscarriages and her doctor prescribed diethylstilbesterol (DES) as part of treatment as soon as she became pregnant again. A similar treatment was used after another series of miscarriages prior to the birth of one of my brothers, who had some of the classic DES exposure symptoms as well.
As in many families, the old pill bottles sat in the medicine cabinet for decades after being prescribed. I still remember the bottle, brown glass, "Prenatal Vitamins with Stilbesterol (TM)"
Mom was enrolled in a lifetime medical study, receiving a questionnaire every year with some routine stuff, and other questions that varied from year to year. I think it was in 2005-2006 that the questions included one about DES use. I was helping Mom fill out the questionnaire and she talked a bit about taking the drug and the reasons why. That prompted me to do a bit of digging into DES, and the family medical history.
https://diethylstilbestrol.co.uk/studies/des-and-gender-identity/ (https://diethylstilbestrol.co.uk/studies/des-and-gender-identity/)
http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html (http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html)
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 03, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
My mother was an RN, degree from the old College of Nursing of Providence Hospital in Oakland, California. She had her degree before I was born. When she first married, she had a series of miscarriages and her doctor prescribed diethylstilbesterol (DES) as part of treatment as soon as she became pregnant again. A similar treatment was used after another series of miscarriages prior to the birth of one of my brothers, who had some of the classic DES exposure symptoms as well.
As in many families, the old pill bottles sat in the medicine cabinet for decades after being prescribed. I still remember the bottle, brown glass, "Prenatal Vitamins with Stilbesterol (TM)"
Mom was enrolled in a lifetime medical study, receiving a questionnaire every year with some routine stuff, and other questions that varied from year to year. I think it was in 2005-2006 that the questions included one about DES use. I was helping Mom fill out the questionnaire and she talked a bit about taking the drug and the reasons why. That prompted me to do a bit of digging into DES, and the family medical history.
https://diethylstilbestrol.co.uk/studies/des-and-gender-identity/ (https://diethylstilbestrol.co.uk/studies/des-and-gender-identity/)
http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html (http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html)
I learnt from somewhere that the lack of an hormonal wash in the fetal stage is what causes people with biologically male bodies with a female identity. According to my interpretation, cisgender males have had this hormonal wash while transgender women did not have this in the fetal stage. It would be interesting if we could have tests to determine this. Since I knew the science behind this, I fought and still fight like hell to present as male but unfortunately there are cases where your will power can only do so much. Ultimately your brain and its identity are what matters the most!
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 04, 2019, 05:57:34 PM
I learnt from somewhere that the lack of an hormonal wash in the fetal stage is what causes people with biologically male bodies with a female identity. According to my interpretation, cisgender males have had this hormonal wash while transgender women did not have this in the fetal stage. It would be interesting if we could have tests to determine this. Since I knew the science behind this, I fought and still fight like hell to present as male but unfortunately there are cases where your will power can only do so much. Ultimately your brain and its identity are what matters the most!
Essentially correct. Most fetal structure tends toward the female sexually dimorphic form by default, and the presence of testosterone and the very active form dihydrotestosterone triggers masculinization effects in the formation of genetalia, the fetal skeleton, and other sexually dimorphic tissues such as those found in the brain, particularly in regions around the hypothalamus.
Dihydrotestosterone inhibits gonadal production of testosterone, and stimulates hepatic sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) production, which reduces circulating free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. In modern pharmacology a modest dosage is sufficient to halt testosterone production when used to treat prostate cancer patients, yet a dosage about 8-16 times higher was given to pregnant women from 1947 on as an off-label treatment to prevent miscarriages, shortly after a pregnancy was identified in an at-risk mother, around week 10 of pregnancy. The small DES molecule crosses the placental barrier easily.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 04, 2019, 09:02:58 PM
Essentially correct. Most fetal structure tends toward the female sexually dimorphic form by default, and the presence of testosterone and the very active form dihydrotestosterone triggers masculinization effects in the formation of genetalia, the fetal skeleton, and other sexually dimorphic tissues such as those found in the brain, particularly in regions around the hypothalamus.
Dihydrotestosterone inhibits gonadal production of testosterone, and stimulates hepatic sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) production, which reduces circulating free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. In modern pharmacology a modest dosage is sufficient to halt testosterone production when used to treat prostate cancer patients, yet a dosage about 8-16 times higher was given to pregnant women from 1947 on as an off-label treatment to prevent miscarriages, shortly after a pregnancy was identified in an at-risk mother, around week 10 of pregnancy. The small DES molecule crosses the placental barrier easily.
Thanks for all the info. Do you think these things could affect one's sexual orientation too? I thought I was an asexual until recently but I just found out that I am bisexual. I am not sure if I should call myself a pansexual because I have never been in a relationship with gender non binary or trans people, I wouldn't mind dating them.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 07, 2019, 06:36:17 PM
Thanks for all the info. Do you think these things could affect one's sexual orientation too? I thought I was an asexual until recently but I just found out that I am bisexual. I am not sure if I should call myself a pansexual because I have never been in a relationship with gender non binary or trans people, I wouldn't mind dating them.
There is some evidence pointing to a correlation between prenatal hormone exposure and development of sexual orientation. As this sort of thing has been a cultural taboo, there is not a lot of research. One nugget to start with:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128002223000085 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128002223000085)
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 03, 2019, 03:49:30 AM
This sounds interesting to me. I also forgot to mention that I too have only one testicle. I do have some body hair (not as much as cis males) but since I have light skin and dark hair, it looks hairier than it actually is. I don't know how to explain my facial appearance but I feel like it's a blend of masculine and feminine features as I have a prominent nose and square jaw but I also have almond shaped eyes, low feminine hairline (no signs of male pattern baldness), normal chin, and prominent lips.
There's a number of physical characteristics which are collectively known as "eunuchoid habitus", which is a body structure that results from having below normal male levels of testosterone as you go through puberty, and is something that is normally associated with intersex conditions. XXY people often have this body structure, but other causes of (male assigned) intersex produce it too. Here's a list of the characteristics associated with this body structure:
* long, slender arms and legs
* a leg length that's significantly greater than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height.
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female "escutcheon" or pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* difficulty building upper body muscle
* feminine facial features and a generally feminine appearance (soft chubby features rather than hard muscular ones; gracile bone structure etc).
* gynecomastica
* other things such as female digit ratio (index finger equal to or longer than ring finger); female carrying angle; absence of acne as a teenager; long, luxuriant eyelashes and comparatively small, high arched feet (in my case anyway).
Basically you end up with a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones. It's more noticeable during your teens and 20s, after that, testosterone (even at below normal male levels) will have masculinised your body to the point where you don't look very different from ordinary men any more.
From what you say, it certainly sounds like you have this type of body structure, and almost certainly are intersex (especially having a female gender identity as well, which is a sign that your brain didn't masculinise as it was developing).
Possible explanations I can think of for the scarring would be hypospadias surgery; surgery to bring down undescended testicles; or hernia repair surgery due to being born with a hernia on one or both sides. Hypospadias, undescended testicles and childhood inguinal hernias are all things associated with abnormally low prenatal testosterone and incomplete male development.
As Michelle has mentioned, intersex isn't only caused by genetic conditions, it can also be the result of being exposed to external hormones (or hormone disrupting drugs or chemicals). This is because the sex you develop as isn't actually determined by X and Y chromosomes, it's determined by what hormones are present during the time your prenatal development was taking place. All being XX or XY does is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles, everything from that point forward is hormones. More specifically, in the presence of high levels of testicular hormones (primarily testosterone and DHT), your development occurs as male, otherwise it occurs as female (female development is what happens by default if the male hormones aren't there, there doesn't actually need to be ovarian hormones present for female development to occur).
Not everything develops all at once, instead there's a certain time in prenatal development which is the critical period for each attribute that has sex differences. The critical period for determining whether you develop male or female genitals is weeks 7 through to 12 after conception, and if you have high levels of testicular hormones present during that time, you'll develop male genitals, if the hormones are absent, you'll develop female genitals, and if the hormone levels are intermediate/fluctuating between male-typical and female typical during that time, you'll end up with ambiguous genitalia.
Exactly the same thing applies to the brain, which is also a sexed organ. One important difference with the brain is that the critical period when sex differences are built into it is quite a bit later than for physical sex differences. Although there is a brain present from quite early in embryonic development, the early stages of brain development involve very rapid cell division (to produce the enormous numbers of cells needed to make up the human brain), and the migration of those cells from where they formed to where their final place in the brain will be (which is often far distant from where they formed). As a result, it's not until about 16 weeks after conception that the first cells have reached their final position in the brain, and start the process of building permanent connections to other cells, and creating the permanent structure of the brain (a process that continues for the remainder of the pregnancy). Presumably there's some subtle difference between male and female brains in how the cells are connected to each other, because it's the week 16 to birth period that seems to be when most of the differences between male and female brains arise (i.e hormones prior to week 16 appear to have a lot less influence on determining the sex of your brain).
So what appears to have happened to us MTFs (and AMAB nonbinary people) is that we had enough testicular hormones being churned out during the genital development stage to give us male genitals, however, there weren't enough testicular hormones being produced during the later stages of the pregnancy to give us male brains. Conversely, with FTMs (and AFAB nonbinaries), they had female typical hormone levels when their genitals were developing, but something caused them to overproduce androgenic hormones (or an exposure to external hormones with androgenic properties took place), during the critical week 16 to birth period for sex differences in the brain.
Unfortunately, doctors haven't properly appreciated the importance of hormones in determining sex, and for decades they've been giving pregnant women judged to be at risk of miscarrying or going into premature labour, high doses of artificial female hormones (estrogens and progestins). In adult men, these drugs all act as chemical castration agents (they suppress testicular hormone production, and in high enough doses, can shut it down altogether). Two progestins that were widely used in the 1950s and 60s (ethisterone and norethisterone), can additionally mimic the action of testosterone, and have been shown to be capable of driving male development in otherwise female babies.
The way these hormone treatments are typically prescribed results in little or no exposure during the week 7 to 12 period when the genitals are developing, but heavy exposure during most or all of the week 16 to birth period, when sex differences are being built into the brain. It's easy to see how people from pregnancies in which they were used can end up transgender. DES is a good example of the process in action, however I'm pretty sure the effect isn't limited to DES, and any exposure to external hormones during pregnancy risks having the same thing happen. If so, this is a huge problem, because they've already been used in literally millions of pregnancies! It would certainly explain why there's suddenly so many of us, when if you look at books and historical accounts from past centuries, transgender people are rarely mentioned, whereas gay people have always been quite common.
Quote
Funnily, I get gendered as female even in my boy mode when I upload it to how-old.net . Now, the last part is gonna sound very weird but I have already had my sex changed to male in my first passport. I was too young to remember it but my first passport still has 'F' under the sex marker. All my certificates after this change obviously mentions my sex as male. I am not too sure what happened when I was young but I have a penis and huge scar between my scrotum and anus. As far as I know, one of my testicles did not descend until I was like 3 or something and when it did, they removed it due to hemorrhagic necrosis (no visible signs of trauma). It does not make any sense to see the scar extending beyond the scrotum. I am not paranoid as my karyotyping will reveal if I have an intersex condition.
From what you've said, whether the karyotype comes back XXY or not, it certainly sounds like you're intersex, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. The only thing is that if it comes back XY, through treatment with fertility drugs it may be possible for you to produce viable sperm, which is something to think about if you might want your own biological children at some time in the future.
My suggestion is to embrace being YOU and not worry about labels. You are unique and very lucky. You have the ability to choose your gender appearance on whim. I often mix clothing styles. For instance, I may wear cute pumps with jeans, or hair decorations with Dockers. Or a traditional male dress shirt with a full skirt. Just depends upon my mood for the day.
Quote from: HughE on February 08, 2019, 11:38:37 AM
Basically you end up with a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones. It's more noticeable during your teens and 20s, after that, testosterone (even at below normal male levels) will have masculinised your body to the point where you don't look very different from ordinary men any more.
Not necessarily. I looked all my life different than ordinary men, but I have a host of other mutations in addition to XXY. I never ever got body hair, my pubic hair was always (and still is growing in the femle pattern, I don't have an Adam's Apple, no receding hairline. With other words, only my genitals and a somewhat light beard growth seperate my body appearance from that of a female. My body decided to stop to produce testosterone in a male level several years ago .
Quote
So what appears to have happened to us MTFs (and AMAB nonbinary people) is that we had enough testicular hormones being churned out during the genital development stage to give us male genitals, however, there weren't enough testicular hormones being produced during the later stages of the pregnancy to give us male brains. Conversely, with FTMs (and AFAB nonbinaries), they had female typical hormone levels when their genitals were developing, but something caused them to overproduce androgenic hormones (or an exposure to external hormones with androgenic properties took place), during the critical week 16 to birth period for sex differences in the brain.
And somewhere along that line seems to be a middle ground, of whatever hormone influence. I had never, and still don't have, a clear gender identity. This allows me to be gender fluid. I can present as amale in the morning, or as a female in the afternoon, without feeling any dysphoria. I prefer to be a female, because I hope that I will be able to develop a female gender identity. It is not a nice thing to not know who you are! Every morning, when I wake up, I have to decide which gender I will be for the upcoming day. Sounds great, almost like superman, or? Let me tell you, most of the time it is not fun!
Quote from: HughE on February 08, 2019, 11:38:37 AM
There's a number of physical characteristics which are collectively known as "eunuchoid habitus", which is a body structure that results from having below normal male levels of testosterone as you go through puberty, and is something that is normally associated with intersex conditions. XXY people often have this body structure, but other causes of (male assigned) intersex produce it too. Here's a list of the characteristics associated with this body structure:
* long, slender arms and legs
* a leg length that's significantly greater than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height.
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female "escutcheon" or pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* difficulty building upper body muscle
* feminine facial features and a generally feminine appearance (soft chubby features rather than hard muscular ones; gracile bone structure etc).
* gynecomastica
* other things such as female digit ratio (index finger equal to or longer than ring finger); female carrying angle; absence of acne as a teenager; long, luxuriant eyelashes and comparatively small, high arched feet (in my case anyway).
Oh, I must say that I am little stunned. It's like you know my entire anatomy. Only one thing that does not exactly match the description is I am quite muscular (more like muscular female than bulked up male) as I used to be an athlete. Honestly, I did not really have a lot of muscle before I hit the gym and put on some muscle. Oddly, I had a hard time gaining muscle weight. Now, it makes a lot of sense. Also, I never had acne as a teenage! My eyelashes are pretty long and it looks huge without any mascara, however, my feet is quite flat (I come from a family full of flat fleet). I never really had any idea about female pubic hair pattern (Still a virgin!) and it seems like I exactly have it. No significant hair from belly button. I have rounded hips even though I am pretty athletic. I have put on some weight recently(quite rapidly, thanks to extreme winter here!) and everything literally went to my thighs and below waist. As of now, my measurements are 41-29-41. I am starting to look more awkward in male attire. Thanks to the winter clothing and multiple layers, it does not look too obvious. Unless I hit the gym and lose like crazy 20-30 pounds, My body is gonna look quite feminine. My body fat percentage is around 18% which is not high at all yet it looks thick. My arm span is definitely longer than my height. As for my legs, they are 43" long(outseam). To give you an idea about my stature, I am about 74" tall. how-old.net almost always genders my face as female even without any makeup. About my digits, my index finger is slightly longer than my ring finger. Isn't it normal?
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Basically you end up with a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones. It's more noticeable during your teens and 20s, after that, testosterone (even at below normal male levels) will have masculinised your body to the point where you don't look very different from ordinary men any more.
I am not too sure about this. Though my testosterone levels are in the normal range for men, it certainly does not have any effect on my body yet. I am not too sure about the typical body structure of female members of my family as everyone is either overweight or obese. Thus, it's not possible for me to know it. My higher estrogen levels shouldn't be causing this either, right? I heard that testosterone suppresses the effects of estrogen.
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From what you say, it certainly sounds like you have this type of body structure, and almost certainly are intersex (especially having a female gender identity as well, which is a sign that your brain didn't masculinise as it was developing).
This is gonna sound weird but I hate wearing makeup and doing my hair. Gender identity wise, I feel like I am a tomboy who does not care about pronouns. I am an outdoor person as well. Growing up, I always played with girls until someone said it's not appropriate to mingle with them (thanks to the sexist culture in my country of birth). I have even had my dad ask if I was third sex when I literally had no idea about it. I obviously said no because I was just a kid. I definitely did not feel like males of my age!
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Possible explanations I can think of for the scarring would be hypospadias surgery; surgery to bring down undescended testicles; or hernia repair surgery due to being born with a hernia on one or both sides. Hypospadias, undescended testicles and childhood inguinal hernias are all things associated with abnormally low prenatal testosterone and incomplete male development.
I vaguely remember this, I had this serious issue when I was really young. Whenever I peed, it did not come out of the tip of my penis and I had a surgery along with my hernia to have this fixed. This fits the description of the hypospadias surgery that you mentioned because I got circumcised with it as well.
Quote
As Michelle has mentioned, intersex isn't only caused by genetic conditions, it can also be the result of being exposed to external hormones (or hormone disrupting drugs or chemicals). This is because the sex you develop as isn't actually determined by X and Y chromosomes, it's determined by what hormones are present during the time your prenatal development was taking place. All being XX or XY does is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles, everything from that point forward is hormones. More specifically, in the presence of high levels of testicular hormones (primarily testosterone and DHT), your development occurs as male, otherwise it occurs as female (female development is what happens by default if the male hormones aren't there, there doesn't actually need to be ovarian hormones present for female development to occur).
Not everything develops all at once, instead there's a certain time in prenatal development which is the critical period for each attribute that has sex differences. The critical period for determining whether you develop male or female genitals is weeks 7 through to 12 after conception, and if you have high levels of testicular hormones present during that time, you'll develop male genitals, if the hormones are absent, you'll develop female genitals, and if the hormone levels are intermediate/fluctuating between male-typical and female typical during that time, you'll end up with ambiguous genitalia.
Exactly the same thing applies to the brain, which is also a sexed organ. One important difference with the brain is that the critical period when sex differences are built into it is quite a bit later than for physical sex differences. Although there is a brain present from quite early in embryonic development, the early stages of brain development involve very rapid cell division (to produce the enormous numbers of cells needed to make up the human brain), and the migration of those cells from where they formed to where their final place in the brain will be (which is often far distant from where they formed). As a result, it's not until about 16 weeks after conception that the first cells have reached their final position in the brain, and start the process of building permanent connections to other cells, and creating the permanent structure of the brain (a process that continues for the remainder of the pregnancy). Presumably there's some subtle difference between male and female brains in how the cells are connected to each other, because it's the week 16 to birth period that seems to be when most of the differences between male and female brains arise (i.e hormones prior to week 16 appear to have a lot less influence on determining the sex of your brain).
So what appears to have happened to us MTFs (and AMAB nonbinary people) is that we had enough testicular hormones being churned out during the genital development stage to give us male genitals, however, there weren't enough testicular hormones being produced during the later stages of the pregnancy to give us male brains. Conversely, with FTMs (and AFAB nonbinaries), they had female typical hormone levels when their genitals were developing, but something caused them to overproduce androgenic hormones (or an exposure to external hormones with androgenic properties took place), during the critical week 16 to birth period for sex differences in the brain.
Unfortunately, doctors haven't properly appreciated the importance of hormones in determining sex, and for decades they've been giving pregnant women judged to be at risk of miscarrying or going into premature labour, high doses of artificial female hormones (estrogens and progestins). In adult men, these drugs all act as chemical castration agents (they suppress testicular hormone production, and in high enough doses, can shut it down altogether). Two progestins that were widely used in the 1950s and 60s (ethisterone and norethisterone), can additionally mimic the action of testosterone, and have been shown to be capable of driving male development in otherwise female babies.
The way these hormone treatments are typically prescribed results in little or no exposure during the week 7 to 12 period when the genitals are developing, but heavy exposure during most or all of the week 16 to birth period, when sex differences are being built into the brain. It's easy to see how people from pregnancies in which they were used can end up transgender. DES is a good example of the process in action, however I'm pretty sure the effect isn't limited to DES, and any exposure to external hormones during pregnancy risks having the same thing happen. If so, this is a huge problem, because they've already been used in literally millions of pregnancies! It would certainly explain why there's suddenly so many of us, when if you look at books and historical accounts from past centuries, transgender people are rarely mentioned, whereas gay people have always been quite common.
Thanks for taking your time to type all the information. It really educated me. I think I had an internal transphobia all these years and refused to believe in the reality. After all, who really wants to go through a gender transition in this world full of hatred?
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From what you've said, whether the karyotype comes back XXY or not, it certainly sounds like you're intersex, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. The only thing is that if it comes back XY, through treatment with fertility drugs it may be possible for you to produce viable sperm, which is something to think about if you might want your own biological children at some time in the future.
I really wish the karyotype comes back with an explanation to all this. It will just make things little easier (like coming out). Even if it comes back as XY, I will still be glad as it would just mean I am a transgender woman and would have an option to freeze my sperm to have biological children in the future. I'm mostly attracted to women (I'm bi), so I wouldn't disregard the idea of biological children at some time in the future. Regardless of the results, I have to find a way to fit in to the society as male and definitely pass as male for one or two more years. Growing my facial hair out now and I know it's just a feeble attempt but if it means I won't be outed as a trans woman and get to live in my country of residence, it's a win-win. If anyone could give me tips to do this, it would be awesome. Trans women who have transitioned must have done this before they went full time. Right now, I look androgynous(if that's the right term) to an extent where most strangers are not even referring me by male pronouns (feels good inside but makes me feel scared at the same time). I think they get confused by seeing a bit of fine facial hair (after a week of not shaving) and very tall stature with male voice. People are too polite here and it's a good thing. I'm sorry if my words add insult to the injury for some trans women as this is exactly what they would want but my situation is just so unique. I just tuck my shoulder length hair under my beanie and wear glasses to draw attention away from my eyes. I also smile quite a lot to make my prominent lips look thinner. I also try to walk like an alpha male but at times, I forget and walk like I do normally. Any way, I am in the awkward phase even before I came out to anyone. Last but not least, my raw DNA data revealed no Y chromosome (a variation of the csv file data did but they were invalid according to several tools). I thought it must have been a mistake as some cis women reported Y chromosome in the same DNA tests and I am not able to track my paternal lineage due to this very thing.
Quote from: Jin on February 08, 2019, 11:47:02 AM
My suggestion is to embrace being YOU and not worry about labels. You are unique and very lucky. You have the ability to choose your gender appearance on whim. I often mix clothing styles. For instance, I may wear cute pumps with jeans, or hair decorations with Dockers. Or a traditional male dress shirt with a full skirt. Just depends upon my mood for the day.
kudos to you! I wish I could do this but I would just get outed as soon as I do this. People have asked me if I am gender non binary due to my appearance and I said no because I don't feel gender fluid at all. I respect people irrespective of their presentation. I just wish everyone could just do that. It will just make this world a better place.
Quote from: Dietlind on February 08, 2019, 01:39:00 PM
Not necessarily. I looked all my life different than ordinary men, but I have a host of other mutations in addition to XXY. I never ever got body hair, my pubic hair was always (and still is growing in the femle pattern, I don't have an Adam's Apple, no receding hairline. With other words, only my genitals and a somewhat light beard growth seperate my body appearance from that of a female. My body decided to stop to produce testosterone in a male level several years ago .
And somewhere along that line seems to be a middle ground, of whatever hormone influence. I had never, and still don't have, a clear gender identity. This allows me to be gender fluid. I can present as amale in the morning, or as a female in the afternoon, without feeling any dysphoria. I prefer to be a female, because I hope that I will be able to develop a female gender identity. It is not a nice thing to not know who you are! Every morning, when I wake up, I have to decide which gender I will be for the upcoming day. Sounds great, almost like superman, or? Let me tell you, most of the time it is not fun!
I am not sure if I really look all that different from most men but in regards to my hairline, they are lower than many biological women (could be genetics by mom and dad don't have low hairlines) and just for your reference. It's quite different from yours (from what I see in your DP). In regards to your gender identity, it's possible for a person to not learn towards either gender because it's more complicated than we think. Also, people always say 'I feel like male', 'I feel like female' just to make it easier for others to understand them. In reality, no one really knows what it feels like a male or a female. Honestly, I don't either and I doubt anyone does!. All I know is I don't feel LIKE my male peers. It's important to make peace with yourself! It is still fine if you keep your hair shorter and choose to wear a mix of masculine and feminine clothes if that is what makes you feel comfortable. In my case, I dress up every then and now but my everyday attire is quite neutral even when I am alone.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 08, 2019, 10:09:17 PM
Oh, I must say that I am little stunned. It's like you know my entire anatomy. Only one thing that does not exactly match the description is I am quite muscular (more like muscular female than bulked up male) as I used to be an athlete. Honestly, I did not really have a lot of muscle before I hit the gym and put on some muscle. Oddly, I had a hard time gaining muscle weight. Now, it makes a lot of sense. Also, I never had acne as a teenage! My eyelashes are pretty long and it looks huge without any mascara, however, my feet is quite flat (I come from a family full of flat fleet).
The long eyelashes and high arched feet are just something I noticed about myself, they're not part of the medical criteria for eunuchoid habitus. In my family, my father and brothers have/had flat feet and my sisters and mother have/had arched feet, so mine have followed what happens in the women rather than the men in my family. People have actually told me I look a lot like my mother.
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I never really had any idea about female pubic hair pattern (Still a virgin!) and it seems like I exactly have it. No significant hair from belly button. I have rounded hips even though I am pretty athletic. I have put on some weight recently(quite rapidly, thanks to extreme winter here!) and everything literally went to my thighs and below waist. As of now, my measurements are 41-29-41. I am starting to look more awkward in male attire. Thanks to the winter clothing and multiple layers, it does not look too obvious. Unless I hit the gym and lose like crazy 20-30 pounds, My body is gonna look quite feminine. My body fat percentage is around 18% which is not high at all yet it looks thick. My arm span is definitely longer than my height. As for my legs, they are 43" long(outseam). To give you an idea about my stature, I am about 74" tall. how-old.net almost always genders my face as female even without any makeup. About my digits, my index finger is slightly longer than my ring finger. Isn't it normal?
In men, the ring finger is supposed to be longer than the index finger. In women, the two are equal in length or the index finger is longer.
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I am not too sure about this. Though my testosterone levels are in the normal range for men, it certainly does not have any effect on my body yet.
Doctors often assume that, just because the testosterone level falls within the reference range, that it's within the normal range for a healthy adult. That's a false assumption. Lab reference ranges are based on a random sample of blood samples submitted at that lab for testing, and the people having blood tests tend to disproportionately be sick or elderly. They don't necessarily reflect what hormone levels should be in a normal, healthy population.
As part of the Framingham Heart Study, they measured the testosterone levels of several hundred fit, healthy men, to determine what T levels should be in a normal healthy male population. The average (mean) total T was 723.8 ng/dl (25.1 nmol/l). If you're a healthy adult man, that's roughly where your total T should be.
I don't know the situation in Canada, but here in the UK, the guidelines state that your total T has to be below 12 nmol/l before you can be considered for treatment, anything above that counts as "normal" (even though that's less than half the average for normal, healthy men, and anything below about 15 and you'll almost certainly be experiencing symptoms of low T). It's just an arbitrary limit they've chosen to keep the number of patients the NHS has to treat small.
So what doctors say is "normal", isn't necessarily normal at all.
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I am not too sure about the typical body structure of female members of my family as everyone is either overweight or obese. Thus, it's not possible for me to know it. My higher estrogen levels shouldn't be causing this either, right? I heard that testosterone suppresses the effects of estrogen.
It probably works both ways. I know that high E counteracts the effects of T, so you can have good T levels but still have the symptoms of low T if your E levels are excessively high.
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This is gonna sound weird but I hate wearing makeup and doing my hair. Gender identity wise, I feel like I am a tomboy who does not care about pronouns. I am an outdoor person as well. Growing up, I always played with girls until someone said it's not appropriate to mingle with them (thanks to the sexist culture in my country of birth). I have even had my dad ask if I was third sex when I literally had no idea about it. I obviously said no because I was just a kid. I definitely did not feel like males of my age!
Sounds a lot like me when I was a kid!
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I vaguely remember this, I had this serious issue when I was really young. Whenever I peed, it did not come out of the tip of my penis and I had a surgery along with my hernia to have this fixed. This fits the description of the hypospadias surgery that you mentioned because I got circumcised with it as well.
Hypospadias is a form of intersex. It's where you were born with ambiguous genitalia, except doctors have decided to assign you male. For some reason, they bend over backwards to avoid diagnosing intersex in a person assigned male, so they call what are actually ambiguous genitalia, hypospadias.
Childhood inguinal hernias are another thing that can happen as a result of abnormally low testosterone during prenatal development. I had one.
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I really wish the karyotype comes back with an explanation to all this. It will just make things little easier (like coming out).
I wouldn't worry about it. Pretty much the only intersex condition it can pick up is Klinefelter's, and there are many other things that can cause intersex. From what you've said, you definitely are intersex.
Quote from: HughE on February 11, 2019, 04:15:23 AM
. Pretty much the only intersex condition it can pick up is Klinefelter's, and there are many other things that can cause intersex. From what you've said, you definitely are intersex.
I would be very careful with this statement. I know that I am a Klinefelter person, with a host of other chromosome mutations, and I am a medical professional with an advanced degree!
However, I would never even try to make a remote diagnosis of any other person, in fact, I would not expect any other medical professional to diagnose me right via long distance and just a description (no pictures) of me!
The only thing what I would say here is that it sounds possible that the person with this description could be/might be intersex. That is as far as would go.
I don't know what your professional background is that allows you to make this absolute statement about this person?
Quote from: HughE on February 11, 2019, 04:15:23 AM
I had one.I wouldn't worry about it. Pretty much the only intersex condition it can pick up is Klinefelter's, and there are many other things that can cause intersex. From what you've said, you definitely are intersex.
Funny, I was taught to determine a number of things from the results of a karotype analysis, perhaps because of your laser-focus on DES issues, you've forgotten about the others.
And making a DX based on a written description is complete rubbish. It's so far from professional that I just don't know what to say, except you kinda need a physical exam and some path done..
Let me make this very clear. As of now, I have not been diagnosed with any sort of intersex condition by any doctor. Here's what I know for sure, I am phenotypically male regardless of my chromosomes. I could be intersex or not. The following are the most likely outcomes of the karyotyping:
1. Klinefelter's Syndrome (XXY or XXXY)
2. XY male (normal)
3. XX male (De la Chapelle syndrome),
4. So many other possible outcomes.
It's also possible that my condition could be caused by hormonal imbalance. It's not really uncommon for some males to have high levels of both Testosterone and Estrogen (like me). This happens when an aromatase converts excess testosterone to estrogen. However, my gender identity is just not male irrespective of my karyotype result. I still have to wait for a bit more before I get it. I will update it when I get it. At the moment, I am not even diagnosed with gender dysphoria yet as I never opened up about it to a doctor. That's because I don't want any of my medical records stating I have gender dysphoria as it will hurt my chances when I apply for permanent residency in the future. Also, I am not worried about the fact that I could be just a biological male with gender dysphoria (like most trans women). I have never cared about my pronouns throughout my entire life. Regardless of what other people call me, I know who and what I am. Thank you for all your input, I appreciate your time.
Quote from: PurplePelican on February 11, 2019, 11:49:18 AM
Funny, I was taught to determine a number of things from the results of a karotype analysis, perhaps because of your laser-focus on DES issues, you've forgotten about the others.
A karyotype lets you know how many of each chromosome you have, and whether there are any major structural abnormalities in any of them, such as translocated or inverted sections. The main thing a karyotype wouldd be likely to show as far as intersex is concerned, is XXY (or some other multiple X condition such as XXXY or XXYY, which have similar effects of preventing the testicles from growing to full size, so that not enough testosterone is produced for full masculinisation to take place). You're right, it can show some other genetic factors that can be causes of intersex too (such as mosaicism or chimerism, where there's, e.g. both XX and XY cells present). However, most genetic causes of intersex are quite rare, Klinefelters is the commonest one, at about 1 in 500 male assigned births.
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And making a DX based on a written description is complete rubbish. It's so far from professional that I just don't know what to say, except you kinda need a physical exam and some path done..
I'm not making a diagnosis, I'm expressing an opinion. If someone has the eunuchoid body structure I described, it means they've had lower than normal male testosterone present from before puberty, which even on its own points to some form of intersex as a probable cause. If they've also got scars from hypospadias surgery and a female gender identity, that's a pretty definitive indication that there wasn't enough testosterone there for full masculinisation to take place during their prenatal development, and they are intersex. That's just my opinion of course!
For whatever reason, doctors bend over backwards to avoid diagnosing intersex in someone who they've decided to assign male. They use names such as "hypospadias" and "micropenis" for what are actually the ambiguous genitalia of an intersex baby.
http://intersexroadshow.blogspot.com/2013/02/hypospadias-intersexuality-and-gender.html
So, my results are out! As expected, the karyotype revealed XY Male but there was an anomaly detected. One of the chromosomes in the 9th pair is inverted and this could cause infertility. I did a bit of research and I found out that it causes inter sexuality in pigs. Although I am not a pig (lol), I am quite surprised by it. This anomaly is primarily associated with chronic myeloid leukemia and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The latter could cause the symptoms that I experienced.
Quote from: jameswhiteshine on February 21, 2019, 09:56:18 PM
So, my results are out! As expected, the karyotype revealed XY Male but there was an anomaly detected. One of the chromosomes in the 9th pair is inverted and this could cause infertility. I did a bit of research and I found out that it causes inter sexuality in pigs. Although I am not a pig (lol), I am quite surprised by it. This anomaly is primarily associated with chronic myeloid leukemia and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The latter could cause the symptoms that I experienced.
Ahh, about what I expected. And exactly the kind of thing I'd have been looking for, not an IS issue, but an issue with structure.