It's STILL A White Transwoman Thang

[Natasha]

It's STILL A White Transwoman Thang

http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2011/06/its-still-white-transwoman-thang.html
6/16/11
Monica Roberts

The 'TS vs TG' war is an ongoing intramural semantics battle between groups of white trans women.  I don't have or see the same 'TS vs TG' bull feces going on in chocolate transworld because we have more important things and concerns to deal with like trying to stay alive, fight for civil rights coverage or stay employed.   

I have repeatedly seen this crap come up far too often in my time in the trans community between predominately late transitioning privilege laden white transwomen advocating separation based on SRS acquired genitalia.   It's why I add the extra 'W' to WBT because it's frankly, truth in advertising.

[VeryGnawty]

You are in denial about your transsexual separatist movement being a cesspool of whiteness and white privilege. You refuse to acknowledge your use of radical feminist rhetoric to demonize the rest of us to the point where even Dirt and her like minded friends quote y'all on the regular in their hate screeds.

I noticed this as well.  I am greatly disturbed by the similarity of the rad fem movement to people trying to separate themselves from the TG label.  In a way, the separation that is happening in the transgender community is just a repeat of the same phenomenon which happened when radical feminists separated themselves from the fundamentalist feminist movement.  I'm not sure that this separation is preventable.

The assertion that SRS=legitimacy and trans status while 'errbody' else who hasn't had surgery is not trans is classist, racist, vanilla-privileged Eurocentric thinking.

Agreed 100%

Your intramural white transwoman thang is starting to have deleterious effects on the rest of the trans rights movement in the States, and that's distasteful to me.

Also agreed 100%

[Sephirah]

And on, and on, and Ariston.

This will never end while ever someone still has to have the last word. Doesn't matter who it is.

[VeryGnawty]

What does this have to do with my being a binary heterosexual person who doesnt want a political movement led by non-heterosexual organizations steering the government toward creation of 3rd gender classification for special rights?

It doesn't have to do with you being a binary heterosexual person who doesnt want a political movement led by non-heterosexual organizations steering the government toward creation of 3rd gender classification for special rights.  It has to do with why you don't want a political movement led by non-heterosexual organizations steering the government toward creation of 3rd gender classification for special rights.

And why would anyone agree with this article

Because it is mostly accurate.

This will never end while ever someone still has to have the last word. Doesn't matter who it is.

There isn't going to be a last word.  We will end up exactly like the feminist movement:  2 different factions who cannot agree on anything.

[Hikari]

Honestly, I am not a fan of that blog in general, it isn't that the things contained within aren't true per se, but it is the venomous us versus them attitude about the whole thing. I have seen people who are much as they describe trying to divide the community over a sense of legitimacy based on if someone has had surgery or not, that much is true.

Are the majority of them white? probably, are the majority wealthy? who knows, but does it matter if they are white or wealthy? No it dosen't, we are all in this together, and I even feel a sense of solidarity with those transpeople who would look down on me because I haven't had surgery yet. It doesn't matter if they are insecure and trying to divide us, I will always still be nice to them because more hate won't help anything.

And as far as that blog is concerned, the fact that the author even says they have "enemies", is enough to make me disregard them, the fact that race is an issue injected into every nearly article only further makes frustrated with it. However, I won't say much more than this, I want my point of view known, but I don't want to say too much bad about anyone, the world has enough negativity.

[Sarah Louise]

It sounds to me like a bunch of hate in that article.

[Sephirah]

There isn't going to be a last word.  We will end up exactly like the feminist movement:  2 different factions who cannot agree on anything.

Then maybe the best thing would be to agree to disagree.

There are only so many times you can say the same thing. And that goes for both 'sides' in this seemingly endless and largely futile in-fighting. Stating an opinion over and over doesn't make it somehow right or wrong the more often it's repeated. It's still an opinion.

[cynthialee]

Every time I have posted a coment to Monicas blog she never aproves it.

She is vitriolic, and vicious.

She is right about 75% of the time but the way she alienates everyone who doesn't agree with her 25% of trash it makes everything she says look like crap. She ruins her own credibility and harms the cause she thinks she is fighting for. She may as well be working for one of the oppresion groups like FOF for all the good she is doing....

If she would tone down her rhetoric and accept constructive critisism maybe she wouldn't look like a racist ass, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[pixiegirl]

Yeah, know what? That article is not racist. There is a quantifiable, demonstrable difference between something being racist, and something pointing out where a difference along racial lines exists. Yes, this post in your face about it, and unneccessarily vitriolic in parts, but not racist. If you think it is, then you don't know what the word means. If you find me pointing that out offensive, well thats unfortunate, but it also won't change the truth of it one whit.

[spacial]

This is one of the most offensive articles I've ever read from these pages.

It is full of irrelevances.

I can't think of any response that wouldn't divert the entire issue to one of race. And I have no intention of discussion that issue here.

[Dawn D.]

Because the last time I tried posting a comment on Monica's blog, for whatever reason it was not allowed, I ma placing this comment here in response to her lastest posting. It simply represents my point of view on a topic that is taking shape as a more 'slash and burn' tactic to clearing out the transgender/transsexual community.


To Monica:

Gawd! If there is one word I despise more and is over-generalized in it's application, it's the word "privilege". Monica, I have enjoyed your thoughts and writings many times. This post though I feel is stroked with a brush a bit too broad. Just as you despise those who hold ill for POC, I too despise any racist of any type. I know there are hardships out there that are disproportionately represented by POC, and especially for those who also happen to be TransPOC.

There is also no doubt that there is a small aging group of HBS people who think they are the only "True Transsexuals". That the rest of us ( believe it or not), especially  "late transitioners" are anything BUT a transsexual -surgery or not!

I'm beginning to feel I am in my own little minority world. I'm white. I'm a woman. I have a transsexual history. I'm a late transitioner. I'm still married. I raised two children. I have a job. So, I get labeled with this "privilege" title? Right along with the rest of the nut cases you are really focused at in this post? Really?

I've had as many disagreements with them as I am about to have with you. They too want to use the "privilege" card. Except they throw it out as :"male privilege" in that I waited until I was safe and secure in my life and this is somehow my form of 'mid-life-crisis'. BULL ->-bleeped-<-!

They, nor you know anything about what I went through, throughout my life. the trials, the tribulations, and yes hardships I've endured to be who I am. It's wholly unfair to paint me and people like myself with such a broad brush as being somehow "privileged" because I'm white, or was thought to be male. I have a desire to help us all;  transgender, transsexual, POC, white it doesn't matter. I have been involved in helping make things better for us. What drove me out (at least temporarily) was - among other things - the constant innuendo that I and other people like me come from some form of  "privilege". That I'm supposed to somehow feel guilt ridden for being so.

I have two things to say about that. First, I am not  "privileged"! Not now, not ever! Every damned thing I have, I worked my ass off for. That includes my transition. I have never utilized favoritism or cronyism to gain advantage. If anything, those type people have always shunned me, even before I transitioned. What I placed on the table as being sacrificial and ultimately walking away from that table intact, and losing next to nothing; is only one thing. A freaking miracle. Second, I have no guilt for being successful in my transition. I had way more than enough of that guilt before I did transition. I do not need to hang on to that negativity, nor do I deserve to have someone tell me that because I presumably come from a "privileged" state, I should feel guilty for it. I didn't, I'm not and I don't!

These people who consider themselves as "True Transsexuals", are a mirror image of what you're portraying here only at an opposing end of the scale. They are though one thing I wouldn't categorize you as, that is, they are flat out mean spirited. Somehow they have begun a  - thus far - successful separatist debate that is taking hold to shred that umbrella moniker that represented a vast majority of transpeople. If we don't find a way to be respectful of each other and debate this issue with decorum standing above the fray that is them - we will lose. The 'straight normative' society that we sooo wish to have recognition of and equality to, will not have to say a thing to keep us from those goals. we all will have only our fingers to point at each other.  I think we should expose these HBS people for what they are, but do so with clarity, dignity, and having respect for differing points of view.

Monica, keep on writing and keep on bringing good attention where it needs be. But, please consider carefully how and who gets a label that may be just as offensive and just as divisive as that of being called racist when you are not, just because you are white.

[Miniar]

Most people don't understand the term privilege.

Here's the thing, it's not that you're without oppression of any kind, but that you don't face "one specific kind" of oppression.
For example, white people don't face racism (there's no institutionalized and generally accepted oppression of white people in western nations), so they have white privilege.
That doesn't mean they have it easy by default, simply that by virtue of being white they have the privilege of not having to deal with what people of colour have to deal with because they aren't white.

I have white-passing privilege because I look white even if I have mixed heritage.
I will never know what it is like to live as a visibly coloured person.
That's my privilege.
As such, I "check" my privilege and listen when people who face an oppression I don't face talk and I don't speak for them and I don't try to justify their oppression in any way.

That's all that "privilege" refers to.

[Dawn D.]

That's all that "privilege" refers to.

I actually understand this term quite well.

It is used by some in our communities to devalue, and delegitimize the position of success that other people attained. By tossing out the "privilege" card into the field of play, you've effectively dehumanized and devalued everything I have been through as a transsexual person. Simply on account of me being 'white', or having been perceived as male. This too, is oppression. It's oppression of being seen as legitimate. Those that would state that I have utilized some form of "privilege" leave little room for doubt about how iligitimate they see my experience, life, or transition as being. That's holding something that can't be touched, seen, or measured as a form of oppression to my validity. Just because I didn't suffer enough? How would you know? Were you there when I was beaten near death by four thugs and spent three days in a hospital because of it? That's the privilege I had? Please tell me that isn't so.

NO. This kind of labeling must cease or we're going to rip what's left of our community completely apart.



Dawn

[Dawn D.]

Racism occurs for any race. To suggest a particular race is immune or exempt from it is incorrect.

I was forced into a public school busing system in the 1970's as a child and bussed into an African American community known as Liberty City where Caucasian people were non-existent, aside from a small group of white children bussed into a public school there (Google Miami Central High School and Miami Liberty City/Overtown riots). I spent 3 years at that school where I was beaten on multiple occasions at times from groups of people, slurred against, abused in various ways, and placed in constant fear. It has the reputation as one of the worst schools and most violent areas in the history of the U.S.

I know racism, because I was a target of it from angry African Americans taking their anger out on me. People who pulled folks from their cars and beat them simply because of the color of their skin.

So I dont appreciate racist comments from those who consider themselves exempt from it, simply because of their own privilege they have given themselves. All it does is trigger my memories of being beaten by those at a vulnerable time in my life.

Valerie,

I completely agree with you. Like you, I had a similar experience in the Bay Area of California as a child in the public school system there. Even though I was treated horribly by POC, I still have room in my heart to not over-generalize against an entire race of people. Even though we were called ethnicentric names I have never done so to them. A racist from any walk of life is a racist. They should not be tolerated in the slightest. However, as I'm certain you feel; I feel that not all POC are racist just like not all white people are racist.

Why do we even have to go to this level in conversation? It's non-productive and gut wrenching - on all sides.


Dawn

[gennee]

I read Monica's blog and enjoy it. She sheds some light on things that often are not discussed. Many of the things she speaks about are true. One of the concerns I had when I started out was being accepted by my own people. So far, I haven't experienced any violence.

Another point is that the vast majority of trans woman injured and murdered are women of color. This is not only in the US but in the world. Lesbians in Africa are raped, transgender people in places like Hondorus and Brazil are killed daily, and many of the trans people killed are 25 and under.

While I applaud Stonewall for happening here in New York in 1969, it wasn't long before the movement went astray. It became a gay, white, middle class movement where women and transgender people were pushed to the margins. There were very few, if any, people of color in leadership positions when LGBT organizations were first created. That pattern still holds true today.

Gennee

[Nathan.]

I actually understand this term quite well.

It is used by some in our communities to devalue, and delegitimize the position of success that other people attained. By tossing out the "privilege" card into the field of play, you've effectively dehumanized and devalued everything I have been through as a transsexual person. Simply on account of me being 'white', or having been perceived as male. This too, is oppression. It's oppression of being seen as legitimate. Those that would state that I have utilized some form of "privilege" leave little room for doubt about how iligitimate they see my experience, life, or transition as being. That's holding something that can't be touched, seen, or measured as a form of oppression to my validity. Just because I didn't suffer enough? How would you know? Were you there when I was beaten near death by four thugs and spent three days in a hospital because of it? That's the privilege I had? Please tell me that isn't so.

NO. This kind of labeling must cease or we're going to rip what's left of our community completely apart.



Dawn

Privilege is something that people must recognize. A white person must recognize they have white privilege, a cis person must recognize they have cis privilege etc Ignoring that it exists implies we have an even playing field when that is simply not true.

Although Miniar has already pointed this out I feel the need to say it again, just because you are privileged in one area does not make your lack of privilege in other areas any less bad. I'm white so I have white privilege, that's a fact. I'm also transsexed and queer so I lack privilege that cis straight people have in those areas. Any discrimination I face for being queer doesn't take away from my white privilege as they are two seprate things. Also another thing to add is that even though white, able bodied, straight, cis males have a lot of privilege it doesn't mean they haven't had a hard life or didn't have to work hard to get to where they are.

[Sarah Louise]

I disagree totally about privelege, we seem to be caught up in words and fighting over them.

Lets just move on, there really are better things to spend our time on.

[Nathan.]

It's easy for privileged people to think it's not important and we should move on but for unprivileged people it's not something easily ignored. I've seen privilege denial from LGBT people before but it always amazes me when it's clear that we don't have the privilege that cis straight people have.

It seems to make people uncomfortable to have their own privilege pointed out. Privilege is not a slur, it's not said to bring people down etc

[April Dawne]

It seems to make people uncomfortable to have their own privilege pointed out. Privilege is not a slur, it's not said to bring people down etc

That depends on intent. Some are using the term as though people are knowingly exerting privilege specifically to screw other people.

I was really trying to stay out of this, because these types of discussions often devolve into bickering over semantics, and the actual topic is lost. While I don't agree wholly with the message in that blog, and especially don't agree with the attitude that white people purposefully exert and exploit privilege (although I'm sure there are those who do) the simple fact remains that we have it. White (or even male) privilege does not mean a person has had an easy life, or that they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter. That doesn't mean we haven't experienced it. I'm sure there have been many times that I've applied for and gotten jobs that equally-qualified minorities or women applied for simply because (at the time) I appeared to be a straight white male. When I get pulled over, I almost always get let off with a warning. People of color-- and women-- are far more likely to lose out on jobs, apartments, homes, and get followed and harassed by law enforcement. And worse; beaten, raped, and killed. All because they were either not white, or female, or both. Having white (or male) privilege doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you evil. We have it inherently from birth and don't even know it. We unknowingly reap it's benefits all the time. Saying it doesn't exist does not make it so.

[Lisbeth]

The rancor in this thread saddens me. I wish we could learn to listen to each other instead of pressing our own points of view. I've listened enough to hear that the experiences of white women (whether cis- or trans-) is not the same as the experiences of women of color. I've listened enough to know that the experiences of trans-women is not the same as those of trans-men. I've listened enough to know that the experiences of post-op people is not the same non-op people. I believe it is wrong to label one set up experiences as more legitimate than another. Doing that is the essence of marginalization, and no human should ever be marginalized. I would rather hear the four words, "I hear your pain," than scores of words about how someone's point of view is wrong.