GG partner used as proxy, placating GID...

[madirocks]

Well said, Zoe. I went through the same ordeal with my step-father (must be that evil step parent thing). It's a shame how the world can perceive someone different as wrong and worthless. Especially when that "different" person has a heart of gold. The amount of courage we have to just be ourselves, and live our daily lives, I say is as encouraging as some of the greatest heroines from the past. We push ourselves through a lot of very difficult obstacles in an attempt to please the world, and coerce them into believing we're okay. I hope that is not offensive, I'm not intending it to be.

[madirocks]

I did not intend to make this about me at all so I won't go there, but since when can other people's expectations make you not realize that you're trans? I could see why that would change your actions _if you already knew that you were trans_, but if you identified as a straight male most of your life then I do not see how it's relevant that other people were trans/homophobic. I grew up in a devout religious family and I never dared breathe a word of it to them, that didn't stop me knowing what I wanted.

You're lucky. You say you lived in a devout religious home. So did I, and I didn't breathe a word of it to them either. For myself though, between society and my "devout religious" family telling me that transsexuality is wrong for so many years, I was lead to believe them to be right. We try all sort of things to "convince" ourselves that we're not. Maybe a relationship, or a new career will "keep things at bay" for a while, and eventually the thoughts will go away.

[AbraCadabra]

* but since when can other people's expectations make you not realize that you're trans? *

We know, but at the same time we do not know. "What is too painful - we 'choose' to forget"

All we are doing now here, is chewing on our gap in perception.

Will you ever know what a hostage feels, a prisoner, someone in a gulag?
No, you will not unless you been there.

Note and remember; "We can not understand (ultimately) what we can not feel"

Simple as that it is.

Axelle
PS: A lot of righteous attitudes are growing on just this fertile ground of misperception.

[pretty]

Right, as soon as someone comes along that knew what they want and acted accordingly, you only call them privileged and talk down to them, knowing nothing about their situation or things they went through. You make all the excuses in the world--everything is convenient. You say you knew from a young age to validate your feelings, then you say you didn't know so you can't be blamed for deceiving people. Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. Whatever. All I see is a bunch of excuses to insulate yourself from guilt. It's all society's fault. It's all your family's fault. I bet that's really comforting to the people you hurt.

PS: A lot of righteous attitudes are growing on just this fertile ground of misperception.

I love my boyfriend and I can't imagine taking so much of his life and just wasting it. So when I see people having done that and still only feeling sorry for themselves it bothers me. This is not a trans issue and being a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize.

[JungianZoe]

Right, as soon as someone comes along that knew what they want and acted accordingly, you only call them privileged and talk down to them, knowing nothing about their situation or things they went through. You make all the excuses in the world--everything is convenient. You say you knew from a young age to validate your feelings, then you say you didn't know so you can't be blamed for deceiving people. Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. Whatever. All I see is a bunch of excuses to insulate yourself from guilt. It's all society's fault. It's all your family's fault. I bet that's really comforting to the people you hurt.

I don't know who that's directed to, but I'll have you know that I never hurt anybody because of my identity.  All but one of my relationships ended for issues that had nothing to do with my being trans.

1. After five years together, she decided to start college and dumped me for a new guy a week later
2. Two-month rebound relationship that just didn't work out; she left for another guy
3. Only lasted a week because she was convinced I was gay since I shied away from sex
4. After a year together, she left because I was more effeminate than she was (and because she wanted to date another guy)
5. Divorced after 2.5 years because we were about 100% incompatible across every conceivable dimension

Perhaps you could argue that 3 and 4 were relationships heavily affected by my internal struggles, but there was much more going on.  Also, notice the trend?  I never left any of them.  So I can't see how I hurt them by being selfish and leaving.  3/5 of my relationships ended when the girl I was with found someone else.  Pretty cruddy record if you ask me.  And for the record, my issues of being trans and being attracted to males were pushed so deeply into my psyche because of years living in fear as a vulnerable child that turned into years as a timid adult.  I wasn't even out to myself, much less anyone else.  Only my last relationship (the marriage) was entered into because I was starting to understand what was inside of me.  But we both screwed up, we acknowledge that, and now we're best of friends (I'd be makeup shopping with her right this very minute if something hadn't come up, since we usually hang out several times a week).

So no, I will not allow myself for one second to believe that I hurt them because of the true self I repressed.  If I was conscious of my own identity, I would maybe entertain the notion.  But if I was conscious of my identity, I would have started living years earlier than I did.  I wouldn't have taken crap jobs that I didn't care about.  I wouldn't have spent 10 years trying to live apart from all humanity.  And I certainly would have transitioned and dated guys.

It takes great strength to go through this, and I didn't find strength until late in life.  And yes, I will blame my abusive parents who would have rather killed me than looked at me, thank you very much.  They did all they could to ruin my life so that the little reminder of my dad's previous marriage would just kill herself and go away.  And no, I won't forgive them either.  They can just rot as far as I'm concerned.

They're out of my life.  They no longer have power over me.

[AbraCadabra]

Well, perception gap as I said.

You (pretty) just fail to imagine, it's either black, or white. Sounds as if we were talking law here?

Hon you say,
* Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. *
You seriously suggesting such some 20 plus years ago?
YOU ARE HAVING JUST NO IDEA!

You'd have electroshock and "fly over the cuckoos nest" that's all you get.

Yet it is interesting to see how so many of a younger generation just can not seem to 'tune' into that.
All you get is a guilt trip. I, as little as Zoë would put THAT rucksack back on.

So I do understand THIS situation, some others... well, I won't hold my breath.

Learned my lesson well.

Axelle

[madirocks]

Right, as soon as someone comes along that knew what they want and acted accordingly, you only call them privileged and talk down to them, knowing nothing about their situation or things they went through. You make all the excuses in the world--everything is convenient. You say you knew from a young age to validate your feelings, then you say you didn't know so you can't be blamed for deceiving people. Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. Whatever. All I see is a bunch of excuses to insulate yourself from guilt. It's all society's fault. It's all your family's fault. I bet that's really comforting to the people you hurt.

I love my boyfriend and I can't imagine taking so much of his life and just wasting it. So when I see people having done that and still only feeling sorry for themselves it bothers me. This is not a trans issue and being a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize.

Hmmm, I don't recall talking down to anyone. 

But, what I am doing is giving reason to why people may go through marriage, etc. There is no intent to hurt anybody in these relationships. The relationships fail because of incompatibility. Do you think that without knowing you're transsexual, that you're going to be incompatible?

I did say privileged, because you found out who you were, and acted on it. Some of us have not had that luxury, and came to realise after relationships have been started.

Am I justifying hurt feelings? No. Am I explaining why it happens? Yes. I can understand if people are doing it intentionally, but that's not what we're talking about here.

It's odd to me that you're so quick to judge, considering who we are. I thought we would need to be more open-minded people.

[RyGuy]

well this isn't in a relationship or with a partner, but often i find myself attracted to guys in a way that's very difficult to separate from sexual attraction. i'm straight, but i have serious male "body envy". i get so jealous of my friends and friends boyfriends bodies and often catch myself checking them out. it's really awkward...

[versuchsanordnung]

Same with me, ryan. Of course in the other direction
When i was younger it was quite a task for me to sort this things out..... And sadly, i failed sometimes.
For me it was a strange mix of feelings, being attracted to someone, a need for feeling socially normal,
loneliness, the need to bond emotionally with people..... To sort that out was not easy, altough i had to learn very early to be emotionally self-sufficient and "classical" patterns of relationships -straight or gay- clearly never were an option for me

[cynthialee]

From the age of nine until I was in my early 20's I lived with the fear of certain death and rape if I came out to my family.
I didn't understand that when the bible says to stone people like me that such things typicaly no longer happened. I really believed I would be killed by my family for this. I repressed as best I could for many many years.

I did not however lie to my spouse and pretend to be a man to hir. I told Sevan I had GID before we became an item.
not every one of us who came out late in life after being married kept it a secret. Allot of women here lived as men, but their wife knew for years before they came out to the world.

Also some of us have this issue so repressed they don't understand they hid it even from themselves until they have lived a lifetime as a man and have fathered children. How terrible of an expreiance these women must have to be sidelined with a disorder they didn't realise they had until they were so well ensconed in a male life that coming out will literaly ruin everything they have worked for for a life time. Yet they come out anyways, because they have to.

It isn't always a cut and dried thing.

[versuchsanordnung]

@Zoë Natasha:your childhood sounds like mine........ Glad you survived.
@ pretty: idk how old you are,my guess would be late teens / early 20s?
I am 33 and there is no way to.compare my growing up in the 80s in provincial austria to growing up today. There is much more.inforamtion available and there is a different way of dealing with diversity in children. My deal as a child was simple as that: conform or die. You get constantly beaten to pulp and become suicidal at the ripe.age of 7? Tough ->-bleeped-<-, you are bringing it on yourself. Be normal. It was along hard road from there to a point where living,not mere survival became an issue again. Let alone dealing with relationships and so on. And that was 25 years ago. I cant imagine dealing with being a trans child 40 or 50 years ago. I think you judge too hard. Having grs at 20 after having lived as a girl since age 4 is not the only valid solution.

[regan]

@Zoë Natasha:your childhood sounds like mine........ Glad you survived.
@ pretty: idk how old you are,my guess would be late teens / early 20s?
I am 33 and there is no way to.compare my growing up in the 80s in provincial austria to growing up today. There is much more.inforamtion available and there is a different way of dealing with diversity in children. My deal as a child was simple as that: conform or die. You get constantly beaten to pulp and become suicidal at the ripe.age of 7? Tough ->-bleeped-<-, you are bringing it on yourself. Be normal. It was along hard road from there to a point where living,not mere survival became an issue again. Let alone dealing with relationships and so on. And that was 25 years ago. I cant imagine dealing with being a trans child 40 or 50 years ago. I think you judge too hard. Having grs at 20 after having lived as a girl since age 4 is not the only valid solution.

My thoughts exactly (and life expereience too)...

[Diane Elizabeth]

what  was the question again? 

When I was diagnosed with GID my therapist said that I  was living my womanhood thru my wives and girlfriends.   When shopping I would find them clothes that I liked and dress them instead of myself.  I was using them by proxy. 


Donna

[cynthialee]

what  was the question again? 

When I was diagnosed with GID my therapist said that I  was living my womanhood thru my wives and girlfriends.   When shopping I would find them clothes that I liked and dress them instead of myself.  I was using them by proxy. 


Donna

Seems to be a common theme amongst the late in life crowd.

It might be a bit creepy but it got us through a rough time.

[JungianZoe]

Seems to be a common theme amongst the late in life crowd.

Probably true!  Whenever my ex and I went out shopping for her, we'd both start out in the store.  But as soon as she went into the dressing room, she pretty much stayed there while I went to find more stuff for her to try on.   To this day, she credits me with finding things she never would have worn in a million years, but absolutely loves now.

[wendy]

Zoe you are very pretty.  My wife is a very good person and very pretty and very intelligent.  I truly love her.  As youngster I was beat at home and so was my sister and mom.  Mom and dad are dying but dad is in charge.  He moved away from my family 3 years ago.  I call and he does not call back.  Mom is very ill and can not get out of bed.

I told wife three years ago.  She is wonderful intelligent woman.  She is ashamed of me.

Past two weeks:
1. Had pink nail polish on and she told me to stay home or take it off.  I took it off and volunteered to help her at school.
2. Wife took me to store and helped me pick out female clothes.  It was amazing!
3. Wife told me to take off scarf or stay home from Church.  I complied and wore a tie.

My wife is giving me "conditional" love.  She is ashamed of me and I am ashamed of me.  She is helping me then stopping me.  I am totally confused.  Why is she torturing me? 

I was wrong.  I tried to keep it in check but failed.  I now argue 24/7 with myself.  My wife is a wonderful woman and I should divorce her to spare both of us from pain.  I do love her.  She is my soul mate and I can not stop crying to think I will be without her for rest of my days!

[AbraCadabra]

* But as soon as she went into the dressing room, she pretty much stayed there while I went to find more stuff for her to try on.   To this day, she credits me with finding things she never would have worn in a million years, but absolutely loves now.*
Zoë,
Gosh that is/was SO me!
Yet, it only works for so long, being your GG partner's 'best girl friend' - after all they WERE/ARE looking for a (cis-)male with few exceptions. And who can blame anyone if things don't work out in the long run...

Axelle
PS: All those parallels in behaviour are almost spooky!

[AbraCadabra]

Wendy,
*My wife is a wonderful woman and I should divorce her to spare both of us from pain.  I do love her.  She is my soul mate and I can not stop crying to think I will be without her for rest of my days! *

That is the exact condition I was in with my wife (long ex now) when being my proxy, though unknown to both though.
Had this un-dieing love idea, she'd hold my hand when I be dieing one day! Heavy!!

I adored her for what she was, a GG, giving birth, JUST BEING THE FEMALE I SO YEARNED TO BE MYSELF, yet she actually despised me by that time.
Getting irritable if I wanted to touched her, same with # 2 (gf) years later, BTW.

"Girl friends" (MtF) just make for crap husbands most all of the time, and who can blame any straight GG?!
Took me years and years to let go of that 'proxy' I gave her (she NEVER had asked for!).
Since that time, when I got over it finally --- we ARE friends now, girl friends, and very good ones.

Axelle

[wendy]

I adored her for what she was, a GG, giving birth, JUST BEING THE FEMALE I SO YEARNED TO BE MYSELF, yet she actually despised me by that time.
Getting irritable if I wanted to touched her, same with # 2 (gf) years later, BTW.

"Girl friends" (MtF) just make for crap husbands most all of the time, and who can blame any straight GG?!"
Took me years and years to let go of that 'proxy' I gave her (she NEVER had asked for!).
Since that time, when I got over it finally --- we ARE friends now, girl friends, and very good ones.

Yes I do want to touch my friend and she flips out.  She does not care if I wear those clothes just not with her.  She does not care if I do not go with her to church, or teach Sunday School, or volunteer.

I do not think she will legally divorce me.  We are spiritually divorced.

We would be very good friends if we divorced and maybe she would feel comfortable with me.  However she expects that I would become a model woman and all my bad habits would magically disappear.  Financially it is not good to split.

Axelle wrote, "Girl friends(MtF) just make for crap husbands most all of the time, and who can blame any straight GG?! "  Axelle you are getting 10 negative points from me.  That statement is so true.  I definitely am not a man.  Almost no wife stays with a MTF that kept it from her (about 5% stay).  Now I need to divorce her and I am an emotional mess?

I have a nightmare of being a "whatever" that is homeless, unemployed , and divorced.  I am not a bad person.  Why must we lose so much to live as we feel?  Why is there such a push to find a solution? Why not just let it go?  Many must just let it go.

[regan]

I do not think she will legally divorce me.  We are spiritually divorced.

She can contest it to her hearts content, but she can't stop you from divorcing her.

If the relationship is toxic to your wellbeing, then why are you still in it?