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GG partner used as proxy, placating GID...

Started by AbraCadabra, July 31, 2011, 09:20:42 AM

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AbraCadabra

The girl/wife had to be what I could not be, and she did play along for some time...
We were both unconscious of that fact, but I know today that this was the case.

Once that 'patch plaster" was ripped off after my (self initiated) divorce the jig was up.
As a saving grace I did get custody of my 8 year old son.

I still did not know that all the never ending pain and sadness (over 9 years post divorce) was based in my, what later transpired, GID.

It was a case of complete denial, despite ballet practice, earrings, aerobic dance, and endless ever failing GG relationships, and gay males going after me. With plenty people thinking I was homosexual and in the closet.
A most confounding situation if you have not figured out what is your case i.e. being transsexual!

Has anyone come to a similar realization, i.e. using ones partner as a "surrogate"?
Which is of course unfair to both parties involved IMHO.
YMMV

Axelle



Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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wendy

Axelle,

This is difficult concept to understand and I have not seen it.

I think my wife is most wonderful woman in world.  I have always complemented her on her beauty, intelligence and sensitivity.

After I shared my feelings with her after 25 years she feels I married her because she is such a "perfect" female in my eyes.  I dismissed that concept to her.

However although we still love each other we have not been able to make either of us happy.  This is a selfish condition which is very draining and is painful to both my wife and myself. 

Sometimes I can be very silly and we have a grand time.  I am both glad and sad that my wife is still with me.  She certainly cares for me and wants "stuff" to go away.
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cynthialee

I have often ussed a female lovers body as a proxy.
Still do on occasion.
:)
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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AbraCadabra

cynthialee,
Quote from: cynthialee on August 11, 2011, 01:50:23 PM
I have often ussed a female lovers body as a proxy.
Still do on occasion.
:)

Thank you hon, "proxy" was actually the better word for what I had wanted to say.

Also, whilst in such a "proxy relationship" it is VERY easily, (almost always?) explained as being "crazy" in love.
This being often not more than a very strong (immature) dependence.
Love to me means among other things, to have the best for your partner in mind. Dependence is not LOVE, it is about me, me, me. Often veiled by giving only in order to receive... i.e. conditional only and childlike immature.

Once you finally get over it, usually stopped by the "proxy partner", it starts to dawn, what is/was actually happening.

...
Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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cynthialee

Sevan and I both do it.

I don't think it is a bad thing or unhealthy if you know what your doing and why you are doing it and your mate is in on it.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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JungianZoe

Oh yes... I'm far too familiar with this.  I dated girls so that I could acceptably go into the places I wanted to go without getting strange looks.  So I could have someone in my life who understood my language (I never could speak male).  And I did it to make myself feel that everything was "normal."  It was never sexually though, because I didn't like sex.  Couldn't do it in this body without mental acrobatics that my brain could rarely muster the strength to perform.

It kind of makes me sad to think of how selfish I was.  Because truth told, I didn't even like girls sexually and I know from other stories how devastating it can be to a girl when she finds out that a guy she's with bats for the other team.  Believe it or not, 4 of the 5 girls I dated had it happen to them (for the fifth, I was her first relationship and she was mine).  Maybe that's a pattern for the types of girls I dated?  That they liked effeminate men?  Because pictures of me over the years prove that I didn't do a good job of hiding who I really was.  And every girl I was ever with asked at least once if I was gay (two of them were so convinced of it that they left me).  They were kind of right.  I liked guys, but I couldn't be with a guy as a guy.  I never saw myself as gay, but as a woman who liked guys.  And in my relationships, I may have had the male parts, but I was never the male.  Most of my girlfriends were headstrong and rational whereas I was emotional and feeling.

Surrogates?  Yeah, I'd say so.
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AbraCadabra

I agree its not a bad thing ONCE YOU BOTH KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

The problem arises if both are in denial or simply don't know what they don't know.

The result will inevitably be all sort of projections in order to keep it all under the carpet, so to speak.

It happened to me, I see it now if I look back. Back then, I was just too "snowed under" to realized what was actually going on.

Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Janet_Girl

Being married three times, I did live vicariously through them.  As my last ex once said, I was using her as my "Beard".  Maybe that is why I am single now.
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cynthialee

Maybe a little wierd ....

But when the husband has the girl parts and the wife has the boy parts it is pretty easy to 'transfer' in your mind where the parts are at.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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wendy

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 12, 2011, 09:47:09 AM
It was never sexually though, because I didn't like sex.  Couldn't do it in this body without mental acrobatics that my brain could rarely muster the strength to perform....
  And in my relationships, I may have had the male parts, but I was never the male.  Most of my girlfriends were headstrong and rational whereas I was emotional and feeling.

Surrogates?  Yeah, I'd say so.

Painful to read this stuff.  My wife as only women I ever liked sexually.  I absolutely loved talking to her because she is so intelligent.  Poor lady had to suffer for decades with me.  I could please her and after she was happy it was done for me.  I did that maybe one time a month to keep her happy.  I had no secret lovers.  My mind focused on satisfying her.  I did that exercise for a decade.

Finally she just cried when we were done.  I told her it was not her but me.  After a couple of times telling her she finally understood.

She says I always seems gay to her.  What gives with this gay stuff?  I did best I could.

If I transition I will do best I can.  No more and no less.

Since we each develop our own coping mechanisms it is difficult to categorize.

I became a girl with my wife and we shared that thing.

I would qualify for asexual but I do not think I am asexual.

Definitely my wife has kept me sane but now it just seems a cruel act of nature.

Sex with another person is a long ago memory.

I am glad my wife remains because she is a wonderful person and I am sad she remains because she is a wonderful person.

No one would want to enter mind.  I wonder if anyone else is caught in this circular reasoning pattern.
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LivingInGrey

I've made this mistake and I'm still paying for it.

The person I'm with now was someone I started to have a relationship beyond friendship a year after I had met her. During the year we were friends we had become very close and one day she just blurted out "I love you!" (much to even her surprise).

I thought if I forced myself into the role of a man I might just be able to completely remove any concept of wishing I was a female out of my life.

Though here we are many years later and still have a wonderful relationship, I've told her about my feelings and my past and have told her about some of the things I've considered as ways to help make me more comfortable. Unfortunately what I hadn't thought about when I started this relationship was her feelings.

She's spent years working to help make this relationship as strong as it is, and so have I. She wants a relationship with a man. She's said, clearly to my face, if I started a transition to no longer be a man she wouldn't know how her emotions would react to that and instead of waiting for it to go wrong she would just leave me from the start in order for her to protect her plans for the future. We've agreed upon, and have put into motion plans for our future (at least her future) that would be disastrous for her at the very worst if I were to go back on what we've agreed to.

How could I do that to someone? She has invested interest in this relationship both financial and emotional.

I can't let her down like that, yet I still find it hard to be the person I am. And honestly I find it hard to be with her sometimes because I know why I started the relationship, I saw that I was starting to live vicariously through her (even though she doesn't have the most feminine upbringing) and when I was at my wits end on what to do about the situation I just let it all out to here thinking if she dumps me because of this she dumps me, at least it will be her decision.

But she didn't. At least she now knows.

She asked me, after I had told her about my discomfort as a male if I loved her. Not like the way two girls say I love you to each other but if I could look her in the face right then and there and tell her I loved her as a lover. She knew I didn't like sex (at least using my junk, I've told her in the past kids would not be good for our future yet) even before I told her about myself. It took a week for her to come up to me and ask if this had anything to do with our sex lives. I still haven't told her the truth about that yet. 

I still don't know what would be worse. Having her in my life while I'm a man or not having her in my life while I'm a woman.

(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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AbraCadabra

LivingInGrey
Yeah hon,
what you relate is my story twice over --- not a fast learner at times.
The natal female you with, will not to quickly, if at all, see you as her female equal i.e. will tend to give you the lead/rains, also as far as breaking up goes. That is my experience TWICE.

Now being a trans-female you tend to react much the same way. So you stuck until one party bows out. And that "after the last nail breaks", will be the more 'grown-up' natal female. More 'grown-up' (emotionally) because her puberty will be longer past then yours.
Also my experience twice with minor variations.

Bottom line? Continue suffering greyness of guild and depression, or make a move. It be better, then having the 'reins' taken out of your hands eventually.
It may be your last 'act' as a 'male'...

My 2 cents,
Axelle



Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
  •  

pretty

This sounds practically like sociopathy to me.

You know I get really upset when I read these threads where everyone gets all supportive about literally ruining other people's lives. What makes you think that just because you have problems it's okay to use people? That's awful. They spent so much of their life and emotions on their relationship only to come to the revelation that it was all a selfish lie. Now I never understood this whole "I'll pretend to be a manly man" thing because frankly I have no desire to do that and nobody even cares if you're not hyper-masculine to begin with. So I really can't sympathize when I read these stories like someone forced you all to lie to your wife, marry her, have sex with her, then lie to your children until 20 years later or whatever when you make the big reveal and tear all of that down.

I think the only reason any of you sympathize is because you did it too. Yeah, it's so easy to feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone and everything else. But if someone made a thread here about beating their wife you all would jump on that and say that it's not okay. Yet you are so open and remorseless about the emotional abuse you inflicted. I just don't get why it has come to the point that an accurate stereotype of this community would be "husbands that lie to and use their wives." All I can say is that I never did or wanted to do anything like that. You're not obligated to come out to everyone once you decide to transition, but you are absolutely obligated to tell your spouse, because that's a relationship that you chose to be in with an unwritten promise of honesty.
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JungianZoe

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 12:22:05 PM
This sounds practically like sociopathy to me.

You know I get really upset when I read these threads where everyone gets all supportive about literally ruining other people's lives. What makes you think that just because you have problems it's okay to use people? That's awful. They spent so much of their life and emotions on their relationship only to come to the revelation that it was all a selfish lie. Now I never understood this whole "I'll pretend to be a manly man" thing because frankly I have no desire to do that and nobody even cares if you're not hyper-masculine to begin with. So I really can't sympathize when I read these stories like someone forced you all to lie to your wife, marry her, have sex with her, then lie to your children until 20 years later or whatever when you make the big reveal and tear all of that down.

I think the only reason any of you sympathize is because you did it too. Yeah, it's so easy to feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone and everything else. But if someone made a thread here about beating their wife you all would jump on that and say that it's not okay. Yet you are so open and remorseless about the emotional abuse you inflicted. I just don't get why it has come to the point that an accurate stereotype of this community would be "husbands that lie to and use their wives." All I can say is that I never did or wanted to do anything like that. You're not obligated to come out to everyone once you decide to transition, but you are absolutely obligated to tell your spouse, because that's a relationship that you chose to be in with an unwritten promise of honesty.

And you know, some people had the luxury of not getting regularly beaten to a bloody pulp by their parents as they grew up.  Some people got to explore who they were instead of getting locked in dark rooms and starved half to death.  Some people got to know themselves and didn't feel the need to repress every shred of their identity just to survive at home, living in complete and utter fear of people who were supposed to be "loved ones" and "family."

Some of us got to grow up fearful and confused.  Some of us didn't mean to hurt others as we did it, because we didn't even know who we were deep inside and can only see after the fact what was really going on.  I, for one, never consciously meant to hurt anybody, especially not the girls I dated.  They were my light and my love and provided happiness to my dark and clouded mind.  They were my all.  They just didn't know what was going on deep inside of me because I didn't even know what was going on deep inside of me.  I was as afraid to explore it as I was afraid to be an ebullient child, because I got the buckle end of a belt across my face if I was heard playing or seen out of my room (unless it was when I was picking rocks out of dirt piles in the backyard).

It would help to realize that there's a difference between misunderstanding and malice.
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AbraCadabra

Pretty,
not sure you taking about me when saying:
* What makes you think that just because you have problems it's okay to use people? *

Can only speak for myself here, but I didn't know in all honesty what was going on while it happened. I simply had RELATIONSHIP issues. We tend to project our issues onto others, due to lack awareness.

That realization hit me some time after those events --- a long time after actually.

If you do it all knowingly --- well, that's another call. Let me not throw stones while sitting in a glass house, eh.

Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
  •  

pretty

I can't really comment on not knowing because I was under the impression that most people knew pretty early in life. I have trouble understanding being a man in a straight relationship and not knowing immediately that that was wrong. But that's a different story I guess. I just feel really awful for all the wives who had everything snatched away from them like that.
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AbraCadabra

Hon,
I would suggest you a more lucky one not growing up under severe repression from parental expectations AND as in my case to boot in a society that put homosexuals for 4 year in jail, and 6 for repeat offence.

A transsexual was nothing other then considered homosexual with some extra "twists" if you wish.

It is one of our issues making it hard to understand these formative backgrounds.
Repression and denial in those situations were/are par for the course.

So many young folks coming out (yet still with severe parental issues though) are a sign that society has opened up tremendously, compared to 20 - 40! years back.

Those few known transitioners then where like "astronauts" --- a very few selected to show some way ahead.

Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
  •  

madirocks

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 12, 2011, 09:47:09 AMAnd in my relationships, I may have had the male parts, but I was never the male.  Most of my girlfriends were headstrong and rational whereas I was emotional and feeling.

Surrogates?  Yeah, I'd say so.
Exactly the same as me. I dated quite frequently in secondary school, trying to figure it all out. And noticing I was really just not interested. All that interested me was that I could talk more like myself to them, and we could go shopping together. My last two relationships were both "lead" by very headstrong women, which is partially why we went separate ways. That, and I towards the end of the relationship, the dysphoria hit hard. So, I haven't dated in quite a long time now because I don't want to hurt people anymore. Besides, I've "dreamt" of my marriage since I was a pre-teen... but never was it as a boy. Crazy, isn't that? That's not a good thing to hide from someone you care about.

I don't think using a surrogate is at all odd for us. And, I actually recall reading that it's just one of two reasons we end up going into unrealistic relationships. I'm sorry that you realised this so late Axelle.
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JungianZoe

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 12:44:25 PM
I can't really comment on not knowing because I was under the impression that most people knew pretty early in life. I have trouble understanding being a man in a straight relationship and not knowing immediately that that was wrong. But that's a different story I guess. I just feel really awful for all the wives who had everything snatched away from them like that.

I did know early in life.  At four years old I prayed to wake up a girl the next morning.  I cried, I pleaded, I had no love of the male world.

But at age 5, my stepmom entered the picture and my life was an endless stream of torture until I moved to my mom's house at 13.  No lights on after dark (punished by a beating), no saying you're full at dinner (punished by two days of no food), no being heard (punished by a beating), no having friends (punished by grounding and twice-daily beatings), no touching the refrigerator (beating), no looking at the TV (locked in a dark closet for the night), no playing with your toys without asking (beating), no listening to the radio (beating), no reading your books without asking (beating)... it goes on and on.

I got concussions, I got kicked backwards down the stairs, I got cigarette burns, I got falsely accused of sexual molestation, I got bruises and cracked bones.  I was told that I deserved everything bad in the world and I deserved all the bad the world could give me.  I was told that my soul was black and worthless.  I was told that I'd never make it in life and I'd be nothing.

Something about that kind of treatment can push gender issues down for decades.  Same with sexuality.  Conform, conform, conform, or the world will take you out.  That was my life for far too many years.

And in the matter of my own divorce, it had nothing to do with me being trans.  We just drifted apart (and thankfully Colorado is a no-fault state).  We both wanted it.  I didn't even accept the fact that I was trans until a year after the divorce was finalized, and didn't come out to anyone until nearly three years later.  As for my relationships, two of the girls left me for being too effeminate though I swore to them (and fooled myself into thinking) that I was just a sensitive straight guy.  Apparently they knew me better than I knew myself.  Another of the five girls I dated flat out left me because she was convinced I was gay.  But I wasn't gay.  I wasn't a guy who liked guys, because I could never be with a guy as a guy.  Somewhere inside, I knew I identified as a straight woman.  But that power to conform, that fear of the repercussions, was too strong for too many years.

So none of this was done with intent to harm anyone, especially not the five women I dated (including the one I married).  And for the record, turns out my ex-wife married me to escape Syracuse and her ex-boyfriend.  Her and I are best of friends again and we've had this discussion.  We both got married for the wrong reasons.  Had we known each other more than two months before the wedding, we would never have done it.

In the end, I see no crime that I committed, except that I hid myself away from my own self for far too long.  I ingested the poisonous messages of my dad and stepmom until they became the voice of my "consciousness" (object relations psychologists would have a field day with that).  When I think of my child self, I hate him for believing their hideous mantras, but I wish so much I could go back and just hold him, nurture him, and tell him that life isn't what they made it out to be.  He would have lived his inner she much earlier.  Perhaps he wouldn't have attempted suicide at age 11 and over 20 more times until the age of 27.  The maternal instincts inside of me bleed for that child and want to mend him.  I try every day.

My experiences made me a compassionate, kind, and loving soul, but certainly not blameless.  I accept what I did relationship-wise, but I refuse to chastise myself for it.  I've already been beaten enough times in this life.  It's time now to just love... love above all.
  •  

pretty

Quote from: Axélle on August 13, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
Hon,
I would suggest you a more lucky one not growing up under severe repression from parental expectations AND as in my case to boot in a society that put homosexuals for 4 year in jail, and 6 for repeat offence.

A transsexual was nothing other then considered homosexual with some extra "twists" if you wish.

It is one of our issues making it hard to understand these formative backgrounds.
Repression and denial in those situations were/are par for the course.

So many young folks coming out (yet still with severe parental issues though) are a sign that society has opened up tremendously, compared to 20 - 40! years back.

Those few known transitioners then where like "astronauts" --- a very few selected to show some way ahead.

Axelle

I did not intend to make this about me at all so I won't go there, but since when can other people's expectations make you not realize that you're trans? I could see why that would change your actions _if you already knew that you were trans_, but if you identified as a straight male most of your life then I do not see how it's relevant that other people were trans/homophobic. I grew up in a devout religious family and I never dared breathe a word of it to them, that didn't stop me knowing what I wanted.
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