Trans in the Workplace: It’s Not Just About Gender

[tekla]

The same people who are currently doing it, the same people who always have done it... the legal and illegal immigrants men and poor women.  She said, "somebody has to. Clean all this away. Somebody, SOMEBODY Has to, you see." Then she picked out two Somebodies. Sally and me. ...  And, as is the way of the world - its' going to be the busiest people, not the ones kicking back doing squat.  And I know lots of people who do both kinds of work, day in and day out.  If you can only do 'blue' collar, or only do "white" collar work you are halfway to useless.  And give the choice I'll take the blue collar types, they have a way of getting things done.  And they know how to work.  Naturally I want the person who can tune an engine, build something off of blueprints, write poems and knows how to spell or at least use a spell checker and knows Robert's Rules of Order.  But if I have to only have one, give me the first.^*

And if your name is not Spirit Who Runs with Clouds and Hates White Guys, like you know, if it's anglo/saxton/german/spanish any of that Eurotrash, your either a legal or illegal immigrants.  BTW, bet my Mexican GF's family has been here longer than most of your families.  Came up from Mexico in the 1820s to Texas and Cali (or what would become after a few wars for Empire).  They were in Mexico, or at least a huge part of the family bloodline was, for, like, well forever.



Yeah, the only people I ever hear talk about Zappa's music, are musicians and people in the industry.  Pretty much I think both parts of it (the music and the lyrics) are over most people's heads.  Almost always one of them is.  If someone is into music enough to understand what's he doing most likely they will really, really, hate the lyrics.  People, like poseur kids who think the lyrics are 'cool' because they are edgy or dirty or whatever rarely - if ever - get the music.  But I can see cases here where it's both.    He didn't have 'hits in the charts' because for the most part he was not a rock star, he was a composer.  Or as my old roomate Wild Bob, who is a classically trained flutist and harpsichord player, always said, "Frank is the only rock star classical musicians listen to."   But musicians talk about him all the time because he's the kind of musician that other musicians put on when they get home.  You know when one of the Dylan boys (I forget who) had a huge hit record in the early 90s?  Well that record sold so many copies that it outsold (at least for a time) dads' entire catalog.  He had more hits, at least recently, and at any rate I think Dylan's songs have sold more by other artists then they have by him.   By your reasoning that means the kid is much more important than dad.  Oh, wait.  Maybe not.

See it's not so much how many records Dylan sold, it's who he sold them to and who listened to them.  OK, so Joe Blow with the Cool Hair who's this weeks hot new thing sells records to tekla and Kate.  And we go home and listen to them.  What's the upshot, other than he's a few lug nuts closer to a Ferrari.  But... but... but.   If a Jerry Garcia buys it, listens to it, tries to work it out, gets the band to play it in the next rehearsal, and then next thing they are playing it to 50,000 people.  Maybe Jerry records it, and more money to bob, more exposure, more fans.  So selling one record to Jerry Garcia (or Garth Brooks) is a lot more important then selling 10 records to people who don't matter.

So, what's the Wiki say 'bout Frank? In a career spanning more than 30 years, Zappa wrote rock, jazz, orchestral and musique concrète works. He also directed feature-length films and music videos, and designed album covers. Zappa produced almost all of the more than 60 albums he released with the band The Mothers of Invention and as a solo artist.

Wait, what's that?  Two records a year for 30 years?  Minus endless greatest hits and 'live' versions of previously released stuff, the Rolling Stones have, well - they have 47 with all that filler.  About 25 counting only original stuff.  25.  Less than have of what Zappa did.

Oh yeah, it's estimated that there are over 32,000 hours of unreleased tape down in the The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen (his home studio) and all the concert recordings too.

See, that's what real genisus do, they just crank it out.  It's not some huge effort, like trying to give birth to a baby elephant or something.  Screw the masterpiece, forget fame, don't worry about popular.  Write it, rehearse it, release it.   If it's what you do, you just do it.  You are not going to know any of that popular, fame, masterpiece stuff for years anyway.

I mean if I only like about 10% of what Frank did (that's just about fair) that 10% is a lot more music than most bands put out in their career.  "Peaches en Regalia" and "Zoot Allures" are as pretty as anything else ever written in rock, and "Let's Move to Cleveland," and "The Torture Never Stops" are as anthematic a build to the tonic chord as anyone has ever written.  Obviously I'm a huge fan of "Penguin in Bondage," for the obvious reasons.

But to each their own.  Here are my favs.

Absolutely Free
Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation
Fillmore East - June 1971
Freak Out!
Cruising with Ruben & the Jets - which is, tribute?  parody?  Do-wop set to Stravinsky?  Sure, all that and more.
Shut Up and Play Your Guitar
You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore, Vols 1- 6
Does Humor Belong in Music?/Tinseltown Rebellion - I love these two, which are Frank's tribute to his very own industry.  They are the final chapter and epilogue to We're Only in it for the Money
The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life

But let's just look at one of them.

We're Only in it for the Money - The 'answer record' to the Beatles Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band.  On the cover they are dressed in really, really bad drag and instead of things spelled out in flowers, it's spelled out in raw meat.  The only, and I mean ONLY, real critique of Rock Music.  They are not  some sort of Desperado, they are not 'like a band of gypsies rolling down the highway', they are people trying to do a job and make money.  And it's mostly fake.

Walked past the wig store
Danced at the Fillmore
I'm completely stoned
I'm hippy & I'm trippy
I'm a gypsy on my own
I'll stay a week & get the crabs &
Take a bus back home
I'm really just a phony
But forgive me
'Cause I'm stoned

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

First I'll buy some beads
And then perhaps a leather band
To go around my head
Some feathers and bells
And a book of Indian lore
I will ask the Chamber Of Commerce
How to get to Haight Street
And smoke an awful lot of dope
I will wander around barefoot
I will have a psychedelic gleam in my eye at all times
I will love everyone
I will love the police as they kick the ->-bleeped-<- out of me on the street

->-bleeped-<-, he wrote that in 1968, and it's still all 100% true.  And yes, we do sing that to ourselves and each other at the Fillmore.  We have a sense of humor.

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right

And my favorite, and I'll send this out to all of you, well you know who you are...

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR
UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF
SYSTEMS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL
A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE & THE GRAY
DESPAIR OF YOUR UGLY LIFE

Then he gets down to it.  Short.  Concise.  To the point.  To wit:

FZ on the left:  It's one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me. You know, every time I think about how lucky I am to be in the rock & roll industry, it's SO exciting. You know, when I first got into the rock & roll business I could barely even play the changes to this song on my, on my guitar. But now I'm very proficient at it, I can play the guitar, I can strum it rhythmically, I can sing along with my guitar as I strum. I can strum, sing, dance, I can make merry fun all over the stage. And you know, it's so wonderful to . . . It's wonderful to feel that I'm doing something for the kids, because I know that the kids and their music are where it's at. The youth of America today is so wonderful . . . And I'm proud to be a part of this gigantic mass deception. I hope she sees me twirling, yes . . . I hope she sees me dancing and twirling, I will say: "Hello, dolly!" Is the song over?

FZ on the right: Boy, this is really exciting, making a rock & roll record. I can't even wait until our record comes out and the teen-agers start to buy it. We'll all be rich and famous! When my royalty check comes I think I'm going to buy a Mustang. No, I think I'll . . . I think I'll get a Corvette. No, I think I'll get a Harley Davidson. No, I don't think I'll buy any of those cars. I think what I will do is I will buy a boat. No, that wouldn't be good either. I think, ah, I'll go into real estate. I think I would like to . . . I think I would like to buy La Cienega Boulevard. No, that wouldn't do any good. Gee, I wonder if they can see me up here, twirling my tambourine and dancing . . .
Maybe after the show one of the girls who sees me up here, singing and twirling my tambourine and dancing, will like me. And she will come over to me and I will walk . . . I will walk up to her and I will smile at her and I will impress her and I will say: "Hello, baby, what's a girl like you doing in a place like this? I'm from a rock & roll band, I think we should . . . "
Is the song over?


* - A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.  -Robert A. Heinlein

[kate durcal]

I can't believe that you would say that trash.
I will no longer talk to you, that response was bigoted.

Take a survey of any farm field, or construction site, or any menial jobs field, and you will find that the majority of people doing those jobs are immigrants.


Nothing new about this phenomena, it happened to the Irish, Italian, Jews, Polish, and now to the hispanics. The questions those people face as a group are; would they transcend their situation  and integrate or would they mantain their second rate situation? More often than not escape from poverty and ignorance is achieve by education. It start at home by mother who demand excellence from their children, no mediocrity, no excuses.

I came to this country alone and with the proverbial "suit case." I love America because if you want to further yourself the opportunities are unending. You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.

I do not think that by stating the true about who is doing the menial job constitute a bigot statement. You do not want to talk to me, that is fine, but I will continue to vocally oppose  a life style and philosophy of life that promotes mediocrity, a sense of entitlement, and a "culture of victimization."

Kate D

[Ann Onymous]

Go back just as soon as you're ready.  People are fond of saying "once you drop out, you'll never go back".  It took me 14 years but I earned a bachelors degree.  I'm just over half way through my masters degree now.  Just promise yourself you'll go back.

BINGO!

I made the mistake of being in college WAAAAY to early (I graduated early and had a full scholarship, but it was back when the drinking age was still 18- and I wasn't).  After the semester from hell that many years later would limit choices of law school, I did the 'go to school a semester, get bored and go to work, get bored and go back to school' routine.  I then took several years off and finally went back to finish the undergrad degree (finally transitioning in the process both at school and in the workplace in a profile position).  Since only the grades in residence counted for class rank (junior and senior year were in residence), I graduated with honors...cumulative as calculated anywhere other than for law school was 3.31 (LSDAC had me at 3.08 because they factor in the semester from hell).

Going back to school (college or otherwise) or even simply getting life in order can ALWAYS be done if one is motivated enough...and this holds just as true for persons of a trans- background as it does for my clients who are returning to the community with felony convictions to have to overcome.  Even with the crappy economy foisted upon the US population by the current PotUS, opportunities still exist for those who shed the victim labels...

[nickikim]

Education can`t fix stupid, but it can acredit it,  need money, make money, Trades people are still in demand , because of the mentality that you gotta getta degree to make money, bull->-bleeped-<-. I do okay, but, i`m versitile, and i study alot of things,never rest on what you know.  I escaped the poverty of my area without leaving, cause I learned to do stuff.  And then there`s always crime, crime pays if you don`t get caught. Stupid criminals get caught, smart ones get wealthy. 

[kate durcal]

The same people who are currently doing it, the same people who always have done it... the legal and illegal immigrants men and poor women.  She said, "somebody has to. Clean all this away. Somebody, SOMEBODY Has to, you see." Then she picked out two Somebodies. Sally and me. ...  And, as is the way of the world - its' going to be the busiest people, not the ones kicking back doing squat.  And I know lots of people who do both kinds of work, day in and day out.  If you can only do 'blue' collar, or only do "white" collar work you are halfway to useless.  And give the choice I'll take the blue collar types, they have a way of getting things done.  And they know how to work.  Naturally I want the person who can tune an engine, build something off of blueprints, write poems and knows how to spell or at least use a spell checker and knows Robert's Rules of Order.  But if I have to only have one, give me the first.^*

And if your name is not Spirit Who Runs with Clouds and Hates White Guys, like you know, if it's anglo/saxton/german/spanish any of that Eurotrash, your either a legal or illegal immigrants.  BTW, bet my Mexican GF's family has been here longer than most of your families.  Came up from Mexico in the 1820s to Texas and Cali (or what would become after a few wars for Empire).  They were in Mexico, or at least a huge part of the family bloodline was, for, like, well forever.



Yeah, the only people I ever hear talk about Zappa's music, are musicians and people in the industry.  Pretty much I think both parts of it (the music and the lyrics) are over most people's heads.  Almost always one of them is.  If someone is into music enough to understand what's he doing most likely they will really, really, hate the lyrics.  People, like poseur kids who think the lyrics are 'cool' because they are edgy or dirty or whatever rarely - if ever - get the music.  But I can see cases here where it's both.    He didn't have 'hits in the charts' because for the most part he was not a rock star, he was a composer.  Or as my old roomate Wild Bob, who is a classically trained flutist and harpsichord player, always said, "Frank is the only rock star classical musicians listen to."   But musicians talk about him all the time because he's the kind of musician that other musicians put on when they get home.  You know when one of the Dylan boys (I forget who) had a huge hit record in the early 90s?  Well that record sold so many copies that it outsold (at least for a time) dads' entire catalog.  He had more hits, at least recently, and at any rate I think Dylan's songs have sold more by other artists then they have by him.   By your reasoning that means the kid is much more important than dad.  Oh, wait.  Maybe not.

See it's not so much how many records Dylan sold, it's who he sold them to and who listened to them.  OK, so Joe Blow with the Cool Hair who's this weeks hot new thing sells records to tekla and Kate.  And we go home and listen to them.  What's the upshot, other than he's a few lug nuts closer to a Ferrari.  But... but... but.   If a Jerry Garcia buys it, listens to it, tries to work it out, gets the band to play it in the next rehearsal, and then next thing they are playing it to 50,000 people.  Maybe Jerry records it, and more money to bob, more exposure, more fans.  So selling one record to Jerry Garcia (or Garth Brooks) is a lot more important then selling 10 records to people who don't matter.

So, what's the Wiki say 'bout Frank? In a career spanning more than 30 years, Zappa wrote rock, jazz, orchestral and musique concrète works. He also directed feature-length films and music videos, and designed album covers. Zappa produced almost all of the more than 60 albums he released with the band The Mothers of Invention and as a solo artist.

Wait, what's that?  Two records a year for 30 years?  Minus endless greatest hits and 'live' versions of previously released stuff, the Rolling Stones have, well - they have 47 with all that filler.  About 25 counting only original stuff.  25.  Less than have of what Zappa did.

Oh yeah, it's estimated that there are over 32,000 hours of unreleased tape down in the The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen (his home studio) and all the concert recordings too.

See, that's what real genisus do, they just crank it out.  It's not some huge effort, like trying to give birth to a baby elephant or something.  Screw the masterpiece, forget fame, don't worry about popular.  Write it, rehearse it, release it.   If it's what you do, you just do it.  You are not going to know any of that popular, fame, masterpiece stuff for years anyway.

I mean if I only like about 10% of what Frank did (that's just about fair) that 10% is a lot more music than most bands put out in their career.  "Peaches en Regalia" and "Zoot Allures" are as pretty as anything else ever written in rock, and "Let's Move to Cleveland," and "The Torture Never Stops" are as anthematic a build to the tonic chord as anyone has ever written.  Obviously I'm a huge fan of "Penguin in Bondage," for the obvious reasons.

But to each their own.  Here are my favs.

Absolutely Free
Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation
Fillmore East - June 1971
Freak Out!
Cruising with Ruben & the Jets - which is, tribute?  parody?  Do-wop set to Stravinsky?  Sure, all that and more.
Shut Up and Play Your Guitar
You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore, Vols 1- 6
Does Humor Belong in Music?/Tinseltown Rebellion - I love these two, which are Frank's tribute to his very own industry.  They are the final chapter and epilogue to We're Only in it for the Money
The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life

But let's just look at one of them.

We're Only in it for the Money - The 'answer record' to the Beatles Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band.  On the cover they are dressed in really, really bad drag and instead of things spelled out in flowers, it's spelled out in raw meat.  The only, and I mean ONLY, real critique of Rock Music.  They are not  some sort of Desperado, they are not 'like a band of gypsies rolling down the highway', they are people trying to do a job and make money.  And it's mostly fake.

Walked past the wig store
Danced at the Fillmore
I'm completely stoned
I'm hippy & I'm trippy
I'm a gypsy on my own
I'll stay a week & get the crabs &
Take a bus back home
I'm really just a phony
But forgive me
'Cause I'm stoned

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

First I'll buy some beads
And then perhaps a leather band
To go around my head
Some feathers and bells
And a book of Indian lore
I will ask the Chamber Of Commerce
How to get to Haight Street
And smoke an awful lot of dope
I will wander around barefoot
I will have a psychedelic gleam in my eye at all times
I will love everyone
I will love the police as they kick the ->-bleeped-<- out of me on the street

->-bleeped-<-, he wrote that in 1968, and it's still all 100% true.  And yes, we do sing that to ourselves and each other at the Fillmore.  We have a sense of humor.

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right

And my favorite, and I'll send this out to all of you, well you know who you are...

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR
UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF
SYSTEMS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL
A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE & THE GRAY
DESPAIR OF YOUR UGLY LIFE

Then he gets down to it.  Short.  Concise.  To the point.  To wit:

FZ on the left:  It's one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me. You know, every time I think about how lucky I am to be in the rock & roll industry, it's SO exciting. You know, when I first got into the rock & roll business I could barely even play the changes to this song on my, on my guitar. But now I'm very proficient at it, I can play the guitar, I can strum it rhythmically, I can sing along with my guitar as I strum. I can strum, sing, dance, I can make merry fun all over the stage. And you know, it's so wonderful to . . . It's wonderful to feel that I'm doing something for the kids, because I know that the kids and their music are where it's at. The youth of America today is so wonderful . . . And I'm proud to be a part of this gigantic mass deception. I hope she sees me twirling, yes . . . I hope she sees me dancing and twirling, I will say: "Hello, dolly!" Is the song over?

FZ on the right: Boy, this is really exciting, making a rock & roll record. I can't even wait until our record comes out and the teen-agers start to buy it. We'll all be rich and famous! When my royalty check comes I think I'm going to buy a Mustang. No, I think I'll . . . I think I'll get a Corvette. No, I think I'll get a Harley Davidson. No, I don't think I'll buy any of those cars. I think what I will do is I will buy a boat. No, that wouldn't be good either. I think, ah, I'll go into real estate. I think I would like to . . . I think I would like to buy La Cienega Boulevard. No, that wouldn't do any good. Gee, I wonder if they can see me up here, twirling my tambourine and dancing . . .
Maybe after the show one of the girls who sees me up here, singing and twirling my tambourine and dancing, will like me. And she will come over to me and I will walk . . . I will walk up to her and I will smile at her and I will impress her and I will say: "Hello, baby, what's a girl like you doing in a place like this? I'm from a rock & roll band, I think we should . . . "
Is the song over?


* - A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.  -Robert A. Heinlein

dear Tekla,

Despite your impresive homage 100 years from now they -the social/protest singers Dylan, Zappa,  Baez, etc- will be but a footnote in history at best.

You lost your usual clarity. What exactly are you advocating? No education?  Comunism? Anarchism?

Kate D

[tekla]

You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.
True that, and if you've gone to a non-Western nation, it's amazing.  One of the best/most incredibly mindbogglingly stupid things I ever did was go with a couple of friends of mine on a motorcycle ride to the Panama Canal and back.  I was between HS and college, it was the 80s, Reagan was President and some of the countries we rode through were having a civil war.  When we got to Managua I thought the town was full of religious nuts because all the men were carrying those little leather cases that back home always contained a bible.  In Managua they held pistols.  Have some kid (and I was 18, so he was 15/16?) level an automatic rifle at you, it will change the way you think.

Take a survey of any farm field, or construction site, or any menial jobs field, and you will find that the majority of people doing those jobs are immigrants
I don't think of construction as 'menial' - really, it totally matters how well something is built.  And, could it be, that the reason so many immigrants are in construction is because they grew up doing that work and not sitting in front of the TV or game system?  That they might actually know how to, like, work, and have the skills to do it right?  Because when I'm out doing events and lot of the side crews are Mexican, those guys work their asses off.  Good luck finding some middle-class white boy who can put in that kind of effort.

Trades people are still in demand
And always will be.  If you can build, repair, fix, or give great sex you won't starve because it's not going to build itself, it's not going to fix itself, and it's not going to suck itself either.  The demise of 'trade school' education in the US is a very sad thing.  College is great, I love learning and reading and all that, and the group sex deal was fun too - but most of what most people learn in college is not usefull in an economic sense.  No one is going to pay you (unless you are a college professor, in which case they pay you, but don't listen) for your opinion on Jane Austin.  And, for all of Ann's highfalutin' college talk I'll let you in on a dirty little secret.  She went to trade school too.  Law, like medicine, and fine arts, are trades, they are just done in a college setting.  Hell I was working steady and in a union apprenticeship  program before I finished my degree in stagecraft.  Although to be fair, most liberal arts majors are working at a coffee shop, so I guess they out doing their live's work too.


Stupid criminals get caught, smart ones get wealthy.   Really good ones get elected.  Steal a little they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you the king. - Bob Dylan

[kate durcal]

You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.
True that, and if you've gone to a non-Western nation, it's amazing.  One of the best/most incredibly mindbogglingly stupid things I ever did was go with a couple of friends of mine on a motorcycle ride to the Panama Canal and back.  I was between HS and college, it was the 80s, Reagan was President and some of the countries we rode through were having a civil war.  When we got to Managua I thought the town was full of religious nuts because all the men were carrying those little leather cases that back home always contained a bible.  In Managua they held pistols.  Have some kid (and I was 18, so he was 15/16?) level an automatic rifle at you, it will change the way you think.

Har, har, just to think that we may have crossed paths is enough to make me smile. I was one of those kids who got involved in a war I had no bussines to be in. Nothing is more exhilaration and horrible as combat. It never live you, specially at night. Only good thing it left me was the "situational awareness," ability to stay "frosty," anticipate, and "trust" you guts instincts.

I am ....old, I really hate saying my chronological age, my mind says 25, my body 35, my license says oh no! Look, I did my share of menail jobs, and have witness the unjustice of our current society, no system is perfect, but sure gays and women and blacks and hispanics and transgender are sure better off today (2011) than in 1965. Yes, there is room for improvement, but surely a more educated workforce and society would help towards a more justice system, yes?

Kate D

[tekla]

the social/protest singers Dylan, Zappa,  Baez, etc- will be but a footnote in history at best.

My guess (and it's a fairly educated one at that) is that 100 years from now Zappa and Dylan (and the Beatles) are going to be about the only musicians from this period/genre that anyone will be talking about in music schools.  In part that's because what they leave is a real body of quality work.  So the late 20th Century American contribution to music is pretty much going to be Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dylan, and Zappa.  In this order: Coltrane, Dylan, Davis, Zappa.

A few months ago Rolling Stone did a cover story for Bob's 70th Birthday.  They got a bunch of music types to write on the 70 best Dylan songs.  And the list is monumental.  Who else wrote 70 really good songs?  His website lists 458 that he's written, and that's only listing the ones that have been published and recorded.  He may well have hundreds more that are just sitting notebooks or on tape.  The way he writes and records leaves a lot of room for other musicians to come in and really make the song theirs.  From Peter, Paul and Mary (two rabbis and whore), to Garth Brooks, to the Dead, the Stones, jazz bands, Gillian Welch and David Rawling's mighty version of "Idiot Wind", the Ramones, Nick Drake, Nora Jones,  Rage Against the Machine does a killer"Maggie's Farm" --  plus, 16 horsepower, ani difranco, antony, beck, buddy miller, calexico, cat power, chrissie hynde, conor oberst, cowboy junkies, doc watson, emmylou harris, fairport convention, flying burrito brothers, george harrison, indigo girls, iron and wine, jason and the scorchers, jim james, jimi hendrix, joan osborne, johnny cash, lou reed,m. ward, mitch ryder, neil young,nick cave, nico, nina simone, p.j. harvey, patti smith, pearl jam, richie havens, sam cooke, shawn colvin, sufjan stevens, susan tedeschi, the band, the byrds, the white stripes, tracy chapman, van morrison, yo la tengo

now I suppose you could have a fluke happening, but this seems a bit more than that.  And if you're somehow implying that Johnny Cash, Emmylou Harris, Doc Watson, Van Morrison and Nina Simone are marginal talents, or don't know what they are doing, well that's just silly.  What's interesting to me is that no one seems to have any trouble crossing the gender gap (which makes for a very interesting Idiot Wind, and really give's the Indigo Girls' Tangled Up in Blue an strange twist, not to mention the entire Blood On The Tracks which was done for years by Mary Lee's Corvette in some NYC bar.  There you have about as good a 'breakup/lost love/divorce' record as has ever been put out.  (The only one to really be able to stand with it is Shoot Out the Lights by Richard and Linda Thompson - now there's a record that will make you think that never falling in love and staying single for the rest of your life is a great idea).  And the change of the narrator in Simple Twist of Fate, If You See Her Say Hello, and Shelter from the Storm adds all sorts of new layers and understandings.

So people are still going to be talking about him a hundred years from now, the same way people still talk about Rev. Thomas A. Dorsey, or the Gershwins, or Steven Foster, because people are still doing those songs.  People still talk about Beethoven and Mozart and they've been dead for a while now.


If I were to count, I bet out of those 500 or so Dylan songs only a few, like Hard Rain, Masters of War, and Blowin in the Wind are true protest songs.  And Zappa never wrote a protest song.  As would be expected for someone who said:  'I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?'  Nah, people like protest songs, makes them feel all hippy dippy love love love hug a tree and that crap.  What Zappa wrote was opinion (I paint what I see) satire, and parody - and you are always going to suffer for that stuff because you'll be a  victim of society's unwillingness to laugh at its own weaknesses or see it's own faults.  So, if you're saying, as he did, that Americans like to talk about (or be told about) Democracy but, when put to the test, usually find it to be an 'inconvenience.' We have opted instead for an authoritarian system disguised as a Democracy well the USA #1 crowd is not going to beat a path to your door.

Now I've always loved his quote: If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your ->-bleeped-<-, then YOU DESERVE IT.  Again, in our white-washed, media consumed, just keep shopping society telling people to ignore their parents, and priests, and teachers, and the TV - WHAT IGNORE THE TV? - well it's not the golden ticket to having people line up around the block to give you their kids to molest like old Michael Jackson there.

But I'm thinking he wrote this one for you: Most people wouldn't know music if it came up and bit them on the ass.

[tekla]

but surely a more educated workforce and society would help towards a more justice system, yes?

Part of the problem with jobs in the current age is that we have so many highly educated workers that we simply need fewer of them.  But an educated workforce helps with economic stuff.  But justice?  I doubt it.  Most kids know right from wrong, it's not a matter of education, its more a matter of having a heart.

[Shana A]

A reminder, personal attacks and insulting other members are not tolerated! Offending posts will be deleted (as the last two have been) and users issued warnings!

News Admin

[tekla]

Aww, I went for a long ride up in the hills and you two decide to have a douche-bag contest.  That's like having baseball playoffs without the Yankees, or Basketball finals without the Lakers or Celts.  Really. 

For the record, a dollar is far more money than I'd trust the two of you with, combined.

By about .90 cents.

Now both of you go out and rock that nickle.



What exactly are you advocating? No education?  Comunism? Anarchism?
Actually I was advocating for taste and some degree of real world thinking.  Useless I know.  I'd just be happy if people could be a little bit less dumb all over.  Which is what Frank kinda wanted too.  (Despite the fact that stupidity is your best entertainment value.)  What Zappa was trying to say in all of that was that 'your favorite pop star'/ 'rock icon' / totally cool music guy is, in fact, a nerd who is just using an image to fill a bank account.  All of that rock/music biz 'peace and love' was just as much totally full of ->-bleeped-<- as the military's constant 'we're fighting for freedom and democratic values' crap was - they were playing for more money for people who were already rich, just like the military was fighting to make the world safe for American corporations to make even more money.  Lies on the right, and lies on the left.  Both were not doing what they were advocating.  How's it go?  Clowns to the right of me, jokers to the left, here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

[kyril]

Take a survey of any farm field, or construction site, or any menial jobs field, and you will find that the majority of people doing those jobs are immigrants.


Nothing new about this phenomena, it happened to the Irish, Italian, Jews, Polish, and now to the hispanics. The questions those people face as a group are; would they transcend their situation  and integrate or would they mantain their second rate situation? More often than not escape from poverty and ignorance is achieve by education. It start at home by mother who demand excellence from their children, no mediocrity, no excuses.

I came to this country alone and with the proverbial "suit case." I love America because if you want to further yourself the opportunities are unending. You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.

I do not think that by stating the true about who is doing the menial job constitute a bigot statement. You do not want to talk to me, that is fine, but I will continue to vocally oppose  a life style and philosophy of life that promotes mediocrity, a sense of entitlement, and a "culture of victimization."

Kate D

You want to know why your response was bigoted?

Context.

Here's what Ann said first:

Perhaps the most telling and poignant element of the article...and it seems to generally lend credence to the old saying that those who fail to plan have planned to fail. 

Further, with people coming out as transsexual earlier and earlier in the present era, there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

Then Cynthia asked:

If everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?

And you replied:

The same people who are currently doing it, the legal and illegal immigrants.

In the context of the conversation, your response comes across as an extremely bigoted statement that...well, basically that immigrants aren't people. Or at least not the kind of people who matter.

You and Ann seem to agree on not caring about trans workers' rights in blue-collar and service industries, because apparently the only people who matter to you are the ones who can get white-collar professional jobs. Now, that in itself is not fine with me, but I'd probably have left it without comment because I prefer not to waste my time arguing with people who hold those kinds of views. But you crossed the line when you stated explicitly that you expect that those jobs you refuse to care about will/should be filled with immigrants.

[kate durcal]

You want to know why your response was bigoted?

Context.

Here's what Ann said first:
Then Cynthia asked:
And you replied:
In the context of the conversation, your response comes across as an extremely bigoted statement that...well, basically that immigrants aren't people. Or at least not the kind of people who matter.

You and Ann seem to agree on not caring about trans workers' rights in blue-collar and service industries, because apparently the only people who matter to you are the ones who can get white-collar professional jobs. Now, that in itself is not fine with me, but I'd probably have left it without comment because I prefer not to waste my time arguing with people who hold those kinds of views. But you crossed the line when you stated explicitly that you expect that those jobs you refuse to care about will/should be filled with immigrants.

Your time sucks; the thread has evolve into a diferent point. I will look back what I posted and in responso to what, and compose a response. But I seem to recall was about getting an education so you do not have to do menail jobs. Stand-by

You know, you seem to be a very articulated and intelligent youmg man, so i am going to tell you that I tend to the right side of threads as it seems to me this forum seem to be composed of people bent into pusing their socialist agenda. This forum reflects what is going on in America, we are fightiing the unfinished cultural war of the 60's. My views are diametrically opposed to the liberals, that is all.

Kate D

[kate durcal]

Perhaps the most telling and poignant element of the article...and it seems to generally lend credence to the old saying that those who fail to plan have planned to fail. 

Further, with people coming out as transsexual earlier and earlier in the present era, there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

Kyril,

I fail to see just what is so unfair about what Ann posted. Like i said before, I was in the streets at 13 years of age. I mange through hard work and charm to earn 2 doctor, 1 maters, and i m working in a second master. I work in the farm fields, mechanic shops, gymnasiums, school halls, and yes, now I have a wonderful job and make a decent earning. I made many sacrifices when young; instead of buying a motorbike, rode a bike, instead of partying, I read books, etc, etc. And I am not the only one. I plan my life, so what is so wrong to preach planing? And if you are in your late 40's and still doing the ->-bleeped-<- Job you did 20 years ago, whose fault it is? And when you come to me with the lame excuse, I am sorry man, I do not buy it.

I am not being bigot or mean, I am demanding accountability.

Kate D

[kate durcal]

Get an engineering and/or hard sciences degree and you are guarantied to get a job

Kate D

Kyril

Here is my fisrt post in this thread which was in response to Teklas post # 4
What is so bigot about? Is this a poor advice?

Kate D

[kate durcal]

Tekla,

If by time you are declaring your engineering type you have not done a survey of the hiring prospect in that field, or if knowing the prospects you still forge ahead, then you are a donkey and deserve to unemployed. Yes, even in engineering and sciences, in order to secure your future you have to seek advance degrees.

Cynthia Lee,

You argument of the "I have GID" reminds me of the "Oh, it is because I am Hispanic" narrative.

By the time we are eighteen year old or so, we all,GID-affected, black-affected, even the poor WASPs, have to get off our lazy asses, stop playing video games, turning tricks, make a plan, endure the sacrifices, work.

Stop using GID as a crouch, take responsibility for your action.

Kate D

Kyril,

Again, ther intent of my post is to draw attention to the lack of planning and lack of responsability. Nothing bigot about, yes?

[tekla]

we are fightiing the unfinished cultural war of the 60's.

Who's we? I don't think I said anything positive about those people at all.  I called them poseurs, lying through their teeth with every breath, fakes,  and greedy money grabbing morons.  And I said that about both sides.  Just because one side is wrong, does not automatically make the other side right.

The only people who are still carrying that torch for the battles of the sixties are the people who lost.

[kate durcal]

I am not single out, but I can say: "Oh, so damge by GID, but that does not seem to stop you or other from getting boob or vags"

Forget about GID and degrees, there is all kind of people with many disabilities or handicaps who overcome them by shear will and hardwork and  excel in waht ever and make a decent living. Like they said in the post above, real state agents, salesmand, plumers, eletricians, etc

Do not buy the excuses



This could hasve said in a more polite or senstive way but in other threads in this forum GID has been repetedly used as an excuse for all kind of actitivities of dubious morality and/or legality.

There are young people in this forum who need to be mentor to be told that they can be all they can be, to show them that if others have done it, so they also could.

Kate D



Kate D

[kate durcal]

we are fightiing the unfinished cultural war of the 60's.

Who's we? I don't think I said anything positive about those people at all.  I called them poseurs, lying through their teeth with every breath, fakes,  and greedy money grabbing morons.  And I said that about both sides.  Just because one side is wrong, does not automatically make the other side right.

The only people who are still carrying that torch for the battles of the sixties are the people who lost.

Look at congress, liberal against conservatives, abortion versus anti abortion, pro gay against anti-gay, etc. Most of this started in the 60's

[cynthialee]

All of that has nothing to do with the original post.

Chris is a straight white man in his early 20s living in Maryland. Chris is also transgender. In October 2007, he left his job at a local amusement park because he could no longer put up with the severe homophobic harassment and transphobic dress codes he was forced to endure.

From the beginning, the pay was poor and Chris hated the job, but he stayed because he needed the work. His wife was also able to find a job there so that they could carpool together and save on gas. He put in long hours to make up for the low hourly wage. He even put up with being forced to wear the female uniform, even though this caused him great anxiety as a trans man.